Stormzy

[wheypat]

Nope, I'd never heard of him until yesterday when I saw that he has launced a fund to allow 2 balck students to attend Cambridge University. An laudable aim - I'm certain it's easier to be white than not in this, and many other countries.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-45206266

However, I am struggling with this. What if a white person launched a campagin to fund 2 white students to attend Oxford? There would be an outcry of rasism. So, I'm wondering, is what he's done even legal?

(didn't know if I should post this here or on DAK)

[stooz]

The difference is when a group are considered a minority, often with a history of discrimination for no good reason

[Watis]

The difference is when a group are considered a minority, often with a history of discrimination for no good reason

If that is the determining factor, would it be OK to start similar funds for Jews, redheads and left handed people?

Watis

[wheypat]

The difference is when a group are considered a minority, often with a history of discrimination for no good reason

If that is the determining factor, would it be OK to start similar funds for Jews, redheads and left handed people?

Watis

Exactly, so in my mind, if it's OK to say Blacks only then it must also be OK to say whites only. Which is wrong. So logically, if the rules apply equally to all, what Stormzy has done cannot be legal.

[redsturgeon]

Jews...
https://www.postgraduatestudentships.co ... holarships

Catholics
https://www.top10onlinecolleges.org/sch ... -students/

Can't find anything for red heads or left handers though...bad news for my son.

John

[simoan]

Why do people always have to find the negative in a great gesture like this? Without being a black person living in the UK, you'd never know what the many forms of discrimination feel like. The nearest I ever came to feeling something like it was a late night trip on the upstairs deck of the night bus from Leicester Square through Tottenham High Road 30 years ago! But that was just good natured "banter", sort of.

As someone that lives in Cambridge I have to say there is a distinct lack of black people around the city, particularly within the student population, so this can only be a great thing. Even the University themselves recognise it is an issue they need to address and have asked for help. So I imagine they are pretty chuffed too that someone like Stormzy has stepped up to the plate. Good on him!

All the best, Si

[Howyoudoin]

The difference is when a group are considered a minority, often with a history of discrimination for no good reason

If that is the determining factor, would it be OK to start similar funds for Jews, redheads and left handed people?

Watis

I'm flabbergasted that anyone would be offended by this.

By his music, yes, would totally understand that but just trying to help out a couple of kids with the same skin colour as his? Just wow.


HYD

[simoan]

I'm flabbergasted that anyone would be offended by this.

By his music, yes, would totally understand that but just trying to help out a couple of kids with the same skin colour as his? Just wow.

HYD

Blimey, have we just agreed on something? I'm double flabbergasted...

All the best, Si

[Gengulphus]

So, I'm wondering, is what he's done even legal?

It seems clear to me that it's discrimination, but there are plenty of examples of legal discrimination. Otherwise, for instance, everybody who shows a preference for asking people of a particular sex out for a date would be committing an offence!

I've taken a brief look at the Equality Act 2010 and not seen anything that obviously applies, but it contains 218 provisions and 28 schedules, so a lot more than a brief look would be needed to do the job properly!

(didn't know if I should post this here or on DAK)

I'd suggest the Legal Issues board for the specific question of legality, though obviously there are plenty of other issues raised by your post, for which this board seems as good as any (unless the discussion evolves so as to require the Polite Discussions treatment...).

Gengulphus

[melonfool]

This reminds me of International Women's Day, where ninety gazillion men say 'oh, so when is International Men's Day then?', like they're somehow geniuses.

Anyway, 19th November, to save you asking.

This is the relevant EA section, it only applies to 'recruitment' and is meant for employment, but it may be that it is widened to incorporate recruitment to university. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/20 ... ection/159


Mel

[UncleEbenezer]

I have a distant memory of when I was applying to Cambridge, reading through the literature there were lots of discriminatory scholarships available to qualifying applicants. They were supported by some ancient endowment, and would specify a pupil from a particular school to go to a particular college: presumably those of which the benefactor was an alumnus.

Obviously not relevant to "people like us" - at comprehensive school having no such history or ties. Regardless of our colour or any other attributes.

Now, does someone make a fuss when this scholarship goes to a demonstrably-overprivileged black kid from a leading Public School? Or is it set up to prevent that?

[zico]

Judging from the available stats, over the years Oxford and Cambridge have been increasingly white, public-school dominated despite the various attempts to promote more diversity. To generalise (probably only a little bit) the Oxbridge "brand" is something that both attracts public-school entrants and repels non public-school people. Certainly, as a bright-ish kid from a Northern comprehensive, I got the clear message around A-level time that Oxbridge simply wasn't for the likes of me. Visiting both places several years afterwards, I'm glad I didn't even try to get in as my 18-year old self would have been a complete fish out of water in the Oxbridge world.

[tjh290633]

It's funny. Back in the 1950s at Oxford we had a good selection of people from various backgrounds, like Bradford Grammar School, Barnsley Grammar School, etc. in the intake for Chemistry in my College. We had a number of postgraduates from various places, including one from the West Indies and of course the usual Rhodes Scholars. I worked alongside one from Ghana while I was doing my Part 2. Move on to the 1980s and one of my Daughter's best friends was of Indian descent, from Birkenhead.

It reminds me a bit of the second question I was asked on my first visit to the USA in 1965, after "Do you-all have Nazarene Churches where you come from?" It was "Are coloured people discriminated against in England?" to which my reply was "Only if they want to be". There was never a question of anybody not fitting in, regardless of their background, in our day. The one who desperately didn't wish to fit in was the late Dennis Potter, who wrote an article for the Times (or the then Manchester Grauniad, can't recall which) bemoaning his background. He didn't fit in at home either. He wanted to be superior but wasn't.

TJH

[stewamax]

I have a distant memory of when I was applying to Cambridge, reading through the literature there were lots of discriminatory scholarships available to qualifying applicants. They were supported by some ancient endowment, and would specify a pupil from a particular school to go to a particular college: presumably those of which the benefactor was an alumnus.

The 'close relationships' between (e.g.) Winchester and New College Oxford or Eton and Kings College Cambridge are a result and having common founders (William of Wykeham and Henry VI respectively).
But claiming preferential admission via being demonstrably Founder's Kin also still exists, as Wykemist James (Parson) Woodforde found out to his chagrin when descendants of William of Wykeham jumped the queue (though I believe this was abolished at Winchester in the 1850s). At Oxford there are still Founder's Kin scholarships at St John's (Fereday Fellowship), Exeter (an Exhibition, i.e. minor scholarship), Keble (Gomm Scholarship),Hertford (Baring Scholarship) and no doubt some more obscure ones. They may be more or less moribund but still exist and are claimable in principle.
Preference for fellowships at All Souls is (theoretically...) even ranked: Founders Kin first (but must also have been born in the Province of Canterbury),then those born on college land(!). Whether proven ability to sing the Mallard song at the Bursar's gaudy is also a requirement I know not.

Are these 'discrimination' since Founders Kin are more likely to be white, Protestant (even though the foundations usually pre-dated
the Reformation), male, still relatively well off and well-connected?

[tjh290633]

I recall that, when I was applying for Oxford, Jesus college had some closed scholarships for people from Wales (and Monmouthshire, possibly). I also recall some for sons of clergymen.

1950 is a long time ago now. Cambridge in December was a god-forsaken place with the wind blowing straight off the North Sea. I stayed in Trinity and had pheasant for the first time, lead shot and all. Food rationing was still in force.

Easter 1951 in Oxford was an altogether better experience. We sat the exams in Merton Hall and I stayed in Lincoln, which is still the best College by far. 90 intake each year then, of which 30 were postgraduates. You got to know people very quickly. Only one year in College for commoner undergraduates, then out to digs. Scholars got two years in. Women out of College by 7pm. Gates locked at 10pm. Beer was 1/3d a pint for Worthington E. Probably a shilling for Morrell's, but their College Ale was 4 bob a pint. A pound for your scout at the end of term, well worth it if you had a good one.

One could go on, ad nauseam. Commem Ball every third year, 10pm-6am, Summer Ball in between, 9pm-3am. Punting on the Cherwell. Socials at the Arlosh Hall and at the Radcliffe Nurses' Home. Being a Chemist I did 4 years and got two Commems.

TJH

[scotia]

The traditional Scottish examination system (Highers) took place in 5th year at secondary school, a year before the English A Levels, and was matched to the 4-year Honours degree in Scottish universities. However it did not provide entrance to the universities in the English system, unless your school (unusually) also arranged for A Levels to be taken in the 6th year. This had a significant advantage for the Scottish universities - their best potential students were not syphoned off to Oxford and Cambridge. E.G. the top student in my (physics) course became a Nobel prize winner. It also resulted in students coming from a wide range of social backgrounds.
Slightly deviating from the topic, I remember, as a postgraduate, going to a Nuclear Physics conference at Oxford. The accommodation choice was St Catherine's or New College. My supervisor wisely chose St Catherine's - New College, and its facilities dated back to the middle ages. At the conference dinner (held in St Catherine's) a number of German delegates at my table were bemoaning their choice of "New" College , having been fooled by the name!.

[UncleEbenezer]

My nephew just graduated from New College, and loved it there.

As for the name, bear in mind the long history of things new. One example, the settlement that was already 500 years old when it was renamed Neapolis ("Newtown") as the city expanded in the 6th century BC, and is now known as Naples.

[tjh290633]

My nephew just graduated from New College, and loved it there.

As for the name, bear in mind the long history of things new. One example, the settlement that was already 500 years old when it was renamed Neapolis ("Newtown") as the city expanded in the 6th century BC, and is now known as Naples.

The Colleges have been upgrading their facilities in recent years, moving to en suite accommodation.

Back in the 1950s, we had a toilet block in one quad (known as the "Fleet") and a bathroom and toilet underground in another quad (known as the "Submarine"). We had a JCR official known as the Rear Admiral, whose job it was to sort out problems which occurred. Now they have the luxury of toilets on each staircase and in the accommodation across the road, ensuite is becoming the norm. My rooms were in the front quad, so I had a lengthy trek to either. I can't recall whether there was a wash basin on our staircase.

While we are on name-dropping, the other set of rooms on my landing was occupied by a future Clerk to the House of Commons. He came from Durham.

TJH

[PinkDalek]

I can't recall whether there was a wash basin on our staircase.

Wouldn't be allowed nowadays.

[tjh290633]

I can't recall whether there was a wash basin on our staircase.

Wouldn't be allowed nowadays.

There must have been one, or else the scout couldn't have done our washing up.

TJH