Tipping

[UncleEbenezer]

I was brought up to tip when eating out. I dislike it because it thrusts a decision on me that I rarely want, and because it's sometimes inconvenient. Not to mention a possible bone of contention when in a group of people having differing views on the subject! But that's not the fault of the waiting staff who may have done a lot to earn it.

Until recently I would most often pay by card but tip in cash. Especially when the story broke of some restaurants' management pocketing a share of tips paid by card (though I believe that publicity did a lot to shame them into stopping). But I don't always have appropriate cash: indeed, it's become increasingly unusual over the years. No matter, the card payment lets me add a tip. Mildly annoying pressing "no" when tipping by cash, but so be it.

... except that seems to have stopped. Card payment now presents me the amount on the bill, with no flexibility. Anyone know why? Did some rule change outlaw them inviting tips?

And what is now "expected" practice where service isn't included (but is good)?

[tjh290633]

I usually tell the waiter to make it £xx, which is the bill rounded up to a suitable figure, a bit over 10% extra,

That seems to be acceptable.

TJH

[quelquod]

I never do. I don’t trust establishment owners to treat the tip fairly. That’s probably unfair, but it’s safer to my mind. There’s a busy Italian restaurant near which I’d like to frequent but it adds the service charge (tip?) onto the bill. No option. Disgusting practice. I tip in cash only. I don’t go there.

[PinkDalek]

... There’s a busy Italian restaurant near which I’d like to frequent but it adds the service charge (tip?) onto the bill. No option. Disgusting practice. ...

I believe you are perfectly entitled to ask them to remove the discretionary service charge from the bill.

[AF62]

... except that seems to have stopped. Card payment now presents me the amount on the bill, with no flexibility. Anyone know why?

My experience is some machines do offer the opportunity to add a tip and some do not.

Why - I have some suggestions, but don't know whether they are right or not!
- I suspect that many people don't tip these days, so removing the option makes things simpler for the staff (possibly the minimum wage - people think staff are adequately paid).
- Certainly in London most restaurants now automatically put a 12.5 to 15% service charge on the bill, so adding an opportunity to pay more could be seen to be trying trick the customer (the staff don't want to point out the service charge, but the restaurant doesn't want the argument of people who pay both by mistake).
- If it is a cheaper place, so under £30 bills, then people paying with contactless make things more complicated (although I have come across contactless machines which offer the opportunity).

[gryffron]

... There’s a busy Italian restaurant near which I’d like to frequent but it adds the service charge (tip?) onto the bill. No option. Disgusting practice. ...

I believe you are perfectly entitled to ask them to remove the discretionary service charge from the bill.

Yes but, if the service charge is on the contract (menu) then it isn't discretionary. Unless the contract says it is.
OTOH
(Legally) Any restaurant bill is negotiable. Even after you have eaten, if you think the food/service was not adequate.
If you simply walk out without paying, that's a criminal offence.
If you dispute the bill, usually with a partial payment, then you are in dispute over the value of the contract, and the restaurant would have to pursue the payment in a civil court. Which is very unlikely they'd do so, but even if they did you could reasonably argue they hadn't fulfilled their side of the contract. It's theoretically possible to be in dispute without paying anything, but you would have to do so very formally and clearly. Preferably in front of witnesses or in writing. Much easier to leave a partial payment.

I thought cash tips were not taxable, whereas those administered by the employer were. But it appears this is no longer the case. Still applies to NI though. So if you pay a tip via card you are paying an extra tip to the taxman.

You should also note that there is no legal obligation for employers to pass tips or service charges onto staff. They can pocket the lot! Maybe it is worth asking your waiter whether they will actually receive the money before leaving a voluntary tip.

I think that because of all the above, and probably minimum wage too, tipping is becoming less common. And probably only restricted to more upmarket establishments.

Gryff

[dionaeamuscipula]

... There’s a busy Italian restaurant near which I’d like to frequent but it adds the service charge (tip?) onto the bill. No option. Disgusting practice. ...

I believe you are perfectly entitled to ask them to remove the discretionary service charge from the bill.

Tried that once, in a restaurant in Knightsbridge in the mid 90's, near where I worked.

Owner came over: "what's wrong?"
me: "nothing"
Owner: "so why won't you pay the service charge?"
me: "because I want to pay the tip in cash"
Owner: "so why not just pay the service charge?"
me: "Look, I'm going to leave a big tip, I just don't like having a service charge then being asked for a tip on top"
Owner: "Lots of people like doing that"
Me: "well I don't"

The conversation carried on like this for some time - we were the only customers. Eventually the owner relented, I paid a big tip in cash, and we went on our way.

A few weeks later we went back (there was not much choice of even vaguely affordable restaurants in Knightsbridge in those days). Or at least tried to go back. The staff wouldn't let us in.

DM

[scotia]

HMRC rules on tipping:-

Cash tips paid directly to you
If you get cash tips directly from a customer, you have to pay tax on them but not National Insurance.
If you fill in a Self Assessment tax return, you have to include the tips on it.
If you don’t fill out a tax return then HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) will estimate your tips based on information from you or your employer. HMRC will give your employer a tax code so they can collect tax through Pay As You Earn (PAYE). This is where tax is taken from your wages before you get them.
Contact HMRC if you think your tax code is wrong.

Tips included in card or cheque payments
If your employer pays these to you directly, they’re responsible for making sure Income Tax is paid through PAYE.
Sometimes the tips are pooled together and shared out - this is called a ‘tronc’. The person who looks after it is called the ‘troncmaster’ and they are responsible for making sure Income Tax is paid.
If your employer decides how the tips are shared out, National Insurance is due as well as tax. Your employer is responsible for making sure it’s paid through PAYE.

I have stated elsewhere that I think tipping is archaic and demeaning. Regrettably it seems to be a necessary evil in the catering industry. Wouldn't it be a lot simpler if all workers in all industries were paid the rate for the job. It would certainly simplify the Tax collection process - and make it a bit more equitable.

Edit - I added more before equitable

[Gaggsy]

A timely question. Radio 4's the Food Programme did an episode on tipping on April 7th 2019:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00040h7
Tipping Point: Time to Rethink the Service Charge? Should you leave a cash tip or is card just as good, do you prefer a service charge or would you get rid of tipping altogether? Sheila Dillon asks what the future holds for tipping

[bungeejumper]

Some day the restaurant trade will get its act together and will realise that the unpleasant uncertainty surrounding tips is putting customers off from ever turning up in the first place. I absolutely hate the sense that I have to conclude a pleasant evening's conversation by navigating a path between the (supposedly optional) tipping procedure and the alternative possibility of looking like a tightwad because I refuse to play along with this game.

Americans don't seem to be troubled by the idea that you should always give a 20% tip because the management have routinely underpaid their waiting staff by 20-40%. As a Briton, I think otherwise.

I will give tips if I've had really exceptional service - only this week, I've tipped a delivery driver whose helpfulness with a heavy load went well beyond the normal call of duty - but that's not normally how it goes in restaurants. Sorry, waiters, but it's your skinflint management that's letting you down, not me.

BJ

[AleisterCrowley]

I loathe tipping - a tip should be a rare and entirely optional event to reward exceptional service
Why are we expected to tip taxi drivers, wait staff etc, but not dentists and bus drivers?
Why do we need to bribe staff to do their jobs ? The usual answer is because they are poorly paid - which is hardly my fault. The employers need to pay their staff a decent wage and bump up the prices if necessary, so what you see is what you get

Don't get me started on 'cover charges' - had a flaming row with the staff in a steak house in London once as the extras boosted the headline price significantly

[didds]

... There’s a busy Italian restaurant near which I’d like to frequent but it adds the service charge (tip?) onto the bill. No option. Disgusting practice. ...

I believe you are perfectly entitled to ask them to remove the discretionary service charge from the bill.

You are - but that doesn't stop it being an insidious practice. It then requires an active and potentially confrontational aspect to the final transaction. Tipping instead being a silent and non direct interaction.

There was a R4 program last week about it - the food program maybe? Or you and yours? [update - gaggsy's post above includes the link ]

didds

[PinkDalek]

... There’s a busy Italian restaurant near which I’d like to frequent but it adds the service charge (tip?) onto the bill. No option. Disgusting practice. ...

I believe you are perfectly entitled to ask them to remove the discretionary service charge from the bill.

You are ...

This being DAK, I was replying to the No option.

[AF62]

... There’s a busy Italian restaurant near which I’d like to frequent but it adds the service charge (tip?) onto the bill. No option. Disgusting practice. ...

I believe you are perfectly entitled to ask them to remove the discretionary service charge from the bill.

I did it once in a French themed cafe style chain restaurant with a red frontage, who in London add 12.5% service charge onto the bill (they don't do it in the rest of the country).

OK you say, not so bad.

The cheeky gits calculated the service charge before any discounts, so when taking up an offer of 50% off or 'buy one get one free' they tried to charge a 25% service charge.

[stewamax]

In the days when I collected lots of Tesco Clubcard points and then converted them to Pizza Express vouchers, my extended family with kids could eat at PE for very little real money. Since the service at my local PE was always good (and accommodating of messy kids with PE's kids' drawing materials etc) I always left 12% or more of the full undiscounted ('unvouchered') price.
My family rated me as bonkers.

[Howyoudoin]

I was brought up to tip when eating out. I dislike it because it thrusts a decision on me that I rarely want, and because it's sometimes inconvenient. Not to mention a possible bone of contention when in a group of people having differing views on the subject! But that's not the fault of the waiting staff who may have done a lot to earn it.

Until recently I would most often pay by card but tip in cash. Especially when the story broke of some restaurants' management pocketing a share of tips paid by card (though I believe that publicity did a lot to shame them into stopping). But I don't always have appropriate cash: indeed, it's become increasingly unusual over the years. No matter, the card payment lets me add a tip. Mildly annoying pressing "no" when tipping by cash, but so be it.

... except that seems to have stopped. Card payment now presents me the amount on the bill, with no flexibility. Anyone know why? Did some rule change outlaw them inviting tips?

And what is now "expected" practice where service isn't included (but is good)?

I hate tipping as much as the next guy but in the UK, tipping is easy. Just look at the bill that you are presented with and see if there is a servie charge included. Certainly, in London, any proper restaurant tip is included before the bottom line bill.

As far as the USA goes, and high end hotels in the UK, they can get in the sea. I've managed to haul my bags all the way to you, i'm sure I can manage the last 50 metres, thank you.

HYD

[evilbungle]

As far as the USA goes, and high end hotels in the UK, they can get in the sea. I've managed to haul my bags all the way to you, i'm sure I can manage the last 50 metres, thank you.

HYD

I hate the unwanted bag carriers, If I ask then fair enough, if I don't ask i don't want you just grabbing my bags. I was once boarding a (river) cruise ship in Egypt and was fed up with constantly tipping bag carriers so I kept a tight hold on my bag when the staff member tried to take it from me (It isn't the cost I hate but the interactions and worry about having the right money and giving the right amount, it just generally makes me feel awkward.) So after a brief tug of war we get our bag and turn round to head to our cabin, after realizing a few minutes later that we have gone the wrong way we realise we need to sneak back through reception (One floor up, but it was an open lobby) and past all the witnesses to our insistence that we could manage. but we made it to our Cabin without having to worry about a tip - Where we found the card telling us that individual staff members could not receive tips and please don't offer them!

That said I still carried my bags back down and tended to get my own drinks, I just am not much of a fan of being waited on.

[Watis]

... There’s a busy Italian restaurant near which I’d like to frequent but it adds the service charge (tip?) onto the bill. No option. Disgusting practice. ...

I believe you are perfectly entitled to ask them to remove the discretionary service charge from the bill.

I did it once in a French themed cafe style chain restaurant with a red frontage, who in London add 12.5% service charge onto the bill (they don't do it in the rest of the country).

OK you say, not so bad.

The cheeky gits calculated the service charge before any discounts, so when taking up an offer of 50% off or 'buy one get one free' they tried to charge a 25% service charge.

That would be annoying for a service charge added by the restaurant but, when I have used money off vouchers in a restaurant I have tipped an amount based on the price before the voucher saving. My rationale is that, if the service has been good, I don't see why the waiting staff should lose out because I was able to save some money.

I visited Japan last year. It would be rude to tip in Japan so the problem goes away.

Watis

[bungeejumper]

Technically, tipping has been rendered redundant in France for the last four years or so. In bars and restaurants, certainly, the tip is included in the menu price.

In practice, though, people do still leave small cash tips on the table which will tend to get you (slightly) faster service if you intend to return another day. I can't speak for the current practice in Pushy Paris, though, because I haven't been there in fifteen years - but it's the way it works in other parts of the country.

It's made eating and drinking out a lot less complicated, in a country where I've previously been chased down the street by bone-idle waiters demanding bigger tips.

And to think, they said it couldn't be done.

BJ

[chas49]

Moderator Message:
More suited to the Snug than DAK..... (chas49)