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Notre-Dame

A virtual pub for off topic, light hearted pub related banter and discussion. No trainers
JoyofBrex8889
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Re: Notre-Dame

#215427

Postby JoyofBrex8889 » April 16th, 2019, 2:50 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
JoyofBrex8889 wrote:The gospel of Matthew seems pretty straightforward to me: the Last Supper, the betrayal by Judas Iscariot, the purchase of the potters field, mistreatment by the priests led by Caiaphus, Pilate washing his hands of guilt, the freeing of Barabbas by mob demand, whipping and crucifixion, before the veil of the Temple is rent as Christ dies.

It’s the classic tale of the death then resurrection of Jesus. What is confusing to you?

I said the story is confused, as you appear to be.

I even gave one example of a phrase that is usually translated to mean Jesus (in forms such as "son of man" or "son of the heavenly father"), but on one occasion is rendered instead as a proper name in dramatic opposition to Jesus.

Perhaps it was deliberate. After all, the baying crowd telling Pilate "his blood be on us and on our children" looks to me like it might be the moral and intellectual root of Christian antisemitism through the ages, but that only really works properly if you spin the story to hide the fact that the mob was actually calling for Jesus to be released.


Goodness, I think I see where the confusion lies; the theory that Barabbas might be synonymous with Jesus.
Intriguing!

I think the Passion of Christ would be a bit of an anticlimax if Pilates had de-arrested Jesus. The dramatic arc of the hero would be rather askew. Having prophesized betrayal and denial, it would be odd for there to be no consequences. I personally find the resulting outcome with tragedy averted and no resurrection a little too mundane to sustain divine inspiration for the ages ?

stevensfo
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Re: Notre-Dame

#215430

Postby stevensfo » April 16th, 2019, 2:55 pm

Snorvey wrote:I'm thinking now that it must be fake news. David Walliams hasn't tweeted his condolences yet.


Plus, most politicians have to wait till told what to think by the tabloids.

Personally I think they should think carefully before they design the next N.D. Maybe with a helter-skelter ride from the top to keep the kids happy, plenty of room inside for the souvenir shops, fast food, ATMs and lifts down to the underground car parks. Oh, and plenty of proper Muzak, not that awful religious stuff.

Plenty of extra room for parking. Just knock down that ridiculous metal tower thingy!

Steve - special advisor to Donald Trump 8-)

Leothebear
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Re: Notre-Dame

#215440

Postby Leothebear » April 16th, 2019, 3:41 pm

Worth it Snorvey cos "There is nothing like Notre Dame"

I bet there's nothing you can name that is anything like Notre Dame.

Howyoudoin
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Re: Notre-Dame

#215458

Postby Howyoudoin » April 16th, 2019, 5:11 pm

Too soon?

Image

brightncheerful
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Re: Notre-Dame

#215466

Postby brightncheerful » April 16th, 2019, 5:37 pm

flopski2 wrote:I hear Quasimodo left before the fire started... he'd had a hunch something was up.


Apparently, France is to install more fire brexits.

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Re: Notre-Dame

#215467

Postby stewamax » April 16th, 2019, 5:38 pm

It appears that the west front that houses the two bell towers and smaller rose window may have survived, but whether the window glass has completely melted is another matter. Ditto the southern transept with the large rose window.

And re the preceding photo of Charles Laughton as the Hunchback, it is worth looking at the very end of the final clip from the film (it is on YouTube: "Why was I not made of stone like thee", where the camera zooms out) to see a full-size mock up of the south and south-east elevations of the cathedral. it must be the largest single film set ever built; quite extraordinary.

Eboli
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Re: Notre-Dame

#215493

Postby Eboli » April 16th, 2019, 7:01 pm

Fo me it is interesting to reflect that Kenneth Clark chose it as his background to the beginning of his famous Civilisation series. I seem to remember him supposing that Western civilisation hang on by it fingertips in the 5th & 6th centuries AD. Though why he looked across to Notre Dame escapes me. Has anyone got the series to confirm my memories?

Eb.

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Re: Notre-Dame

#215513

Postby stewamax » April 16th, 2019, 9:31 pm

Yes - quite correct. His first extended piece to camera starts with him standing on the banks of the Seine with Notre-Dame behind and trying to define 'civilisation'.

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Re: Notre-Dame

#215729

Postby Leothebear » April 17th, 2019, 6:57 pm

So the responses to fire has already reached a billion euros. I wonder how that compares to tragedies that impact people directly?

Clitheroekid
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Re: Notre-Dame

#215756

Postby Clitheroekid » April 17th, 2019, 8:28 pm

Snorvey wrote:I mean, it's only a building ferchrissakes.

This is undoubtedly true. A human life is - in theory - more important.

But when I thought about it I concluded that it is only in theory, at least as far as I'm concerned. I felt genuine shock and grief when I saw Notre Dame in flames, as I did when I heard about Isis destroying the Central Library of Mosul and parts of Palmyra. The grief was real and visceral, almost like hearing of the sudden death of someone you were fond of, though obviously not someone who was (dreadful phrase) `a loved one'.

However, if I read about 50 people having been killed in a mudslide in China I feel a mild sense of pity, but otherwise little or no reaction.

It's an interesting moral question. If asked, I suppose most of us would reflexively say that human life is more important than anything else, but if I were to say that I'd be lying. It's not just historic and beautiful buildings and works of art that I feel can be more important to save than the life of a random human being, but it can even apply to animals.

For example, there was a story from South Africa a few days ago about a rhino poacher being gored to death by an elephant and then eaten by lions - https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/07/afri ... index.html

I read that "Glenn Phillips, the managing executive of Kruger National Park, extended his condolences to the man's family". This is the conventional reaction, just as conventional morality would dictate that a rhino's life is worth less than that of a man. But although I could feel some sympathy for his family I felt no sadness at all that he'd been killed - quite the opposite, and there's no doubt that to me as an individual a rhino's life was more important than his was.

Likewise, I felt far more grief over the loss of my dog than I ever did over the deaths of various relatives, even those that I was fond of.

I feel rather uncomfortable about admitting this, because I can easily see that it's a slippery slope. If I accept that Notre Dame is more important to me than an unknown person 10,000 miles away it immediately means that there's a balancing act to be carried out, so that the value of a random person's life becomes measurable in absolute terms against mere objects.

I can also see all too clearly that in effect what I'm saying is that I would rather a random person died than Notre Dame was burnt down. So what about two random people - or ten? At what point would I say let it burn?

Put like that it sounds like I'm something of a psychopath, though I don't think I am. But it does give rise to some very interesting thoughts. For example a random person is simply a concept, and easy to lose, but if I were to be confronted with a real - though completely unknown - person and given the choice between their execution or Notre Dame being destroyed would I still be so casual about their being killed?

Instinctively I'd say no, of course not, but even in that situation I don't think there are any absolutes. I can envisage situations where I would rationalise that killing a person to save an object might be justified.

And what if the unfortunate subject happened to be a vicious criminal? Would that alter the moral balance? It shouldn't - if a human life is sacrosanct then it's sacrosanct, even if the rest of the world would be better off if he was dead - but being as honest as I can I think it would influence my decision.

It's much easier to say that a human life is automatically more important than anything else, but in truth it isn't, at least not to me.

I'd be interested to hear other's views (ideally before the men with straitjackets arrive to cart me off!) ;)

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Re: Notre-Dame

#215883

Postby UncleIan » April 18th, 2019, 10:51 am

Clitheroekid wrote:I'd be interested to hear other's views (ideally before the men with straitjackets arrive to cart me off!) ;)


For me, it's the destruction of something beautiful and unique. Something that meant a lot to a lot of people. It's a cultural touchstone for many. Paris is a world city, many millions have been there, I have, if I'm honest, I don't really remember seeing the Notre Dame specifically, or I'm not sure if my mind is playing tricks and inserting classic images of Paris into my mind. Are these things worth more than a human life? Well, not sure, I wouldn't have wanted any fire fighters dying to try and rescue some old painting or a crown of thorns that absolutely definitely for sure was on Jesus's head. That doesn't mean I can't be sad if those things were gone forever. Why shouldn't you be sad that something built with difficulty and craft and care and skill that's been up for 100s of years has gone up in flames?

And I can't really bring myself to care about a coach accident in Madeira, because I just can't relate to it. I mean, I'm not a callous sod, but I'm not connected to it. I mean, I know that if I saw a news report about the family of one of the tourists, and there's little kiddies crying because their big sister or dad or someone has died, I'll probably get a bit teary, because it brings it back to the level of humanity I can relate to, and feel about.

I do find social media a little testing at times like this, it doesn't take long before the judgemental are out in force, you know, "how come you weren't getting all freaked out about x y and z?" trying to call me out as the bad guy for caring about something but apparently caring for the wrong thing. And "ooh, so they care enough about an old building to stump up £100m+ but why don't they spend £100m+ on what I think is important?" It's very negative, though having said that, apparently some churches in the US have been burnt down recently, and because of the reaction from Notre-Dame there's been a lot of donations to rebuild those. And yeah, surely the Pope could crack out the Nazi gold and pay for it all without blinking, but [shrugs] what can I do about that?

In short, it's complicated, contradictory, and messy, and don't ask me to make sense or be logical. I'm only human.

brightncheerful
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Re: Notre-Dame

#215937

Postby brightncheerful » April 18th, 2019, 1:21 pm

Notre-Dame before the fire in 360° video:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47967759

scotia
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Re: Notre-Dame

#215981

Postby scotia » April 18th, 2019, 3:05 pm

I'll try to moderate my words sufficiently to avoid being bounced to polite discussions or the meaning of life. My father always reminded me not to disturb a person's faith if it didn't affect me. I should add we both had no faith in any deity. So this brings me to the purpose of medieval cathedrals. They had very little to do with Jesus - his words made it clear that such structures were of no importance. However they were the shock and awe of the middle ages - part of the structure designed to keep the masses in their place. And the religious rulers kept themselves in splendour - in alliance with the Monarchs whom they propped up as being "selected" by their deity - no matter how abominably they behaved. So enormous resources were spent on building cathedrals, not to mention the palaces for bishops and monarchs, while little or no progress was made to the living standards of the masses.
So I have no great feelings for such structures. Possibly we need to have a few to remind us how pointless (to a modern eye) was their construction. And I suppose there is some interest in seeing how such buildings were constructed with no modern tools. So where does that place me on the fire at Notre-Dame? Clearly from an aesthetic point of view we can't leave a wrecked building in the middle of Paris, and I don't think there would be much support for its replacement by some of the modern structures that have sprouted up around London. So I think they should get on with a cost-effective restoration - using sensible modern materials. But replacing like with like - e.g. oak beams - seems daft. And for all the philanthropists wishing to throw money at the project - lets gather it all together, and use the surplus in more socially beneficial schemes.

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Re: Notre-Dame

#216008

Postby tjh290633 » April 18th, 2019, 4:35 pm

I was very impressed when I visited Poland in the 1990s, after Solidarnocs came to power. What was very noticeable was the number of New Churches being built all over the country and above all the standard of design and architecture. These were built using the contributions of the church going population after a time when the state had controlled all construction.

In a strongly Catholic country, this was not a case of the clergy feathering their own nests.

TJH

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Re: Notre-Dame

#216017

Postby bungeejumper » April 18th, 2019, 5:02 pm

I don't have any religious beliefs at all, so I have no particular axe to grind except insofar as these cathedrals are, in the main, extraordinarily beautiful. (I'll make a special exception for Guildford, which reminds me of a bingo parlour that used to be at the end of our road. :lol: )

But should we feel guilty if we spend money on restoring a great building, rather than on subsistence support for needy people? I don't think it's as easy as putting a price on a life, and then another price on a fine building, and then comparing the two to decide which is more worthwhile?

As a society, we need both people and cultural icons - the latter can last for 800 years and will always help us with the sense of continuity in our heritage, whereas most of the former will be gone in 80 years and will leave no visible evidence of their existence at all. I'd hazard a guess that the amount we spend on our entire national heritage is below 0.1% of GDP - but what we spend on people and welfare, on the other hand, is already well above 10% if you include opening new hospitals and suchlike.

The Glasgow School of Art (1899) burned down last year for the second time, and this time it's going to cost £100 million to rebuild it, and relatively few people outside Scotland will ever see it. That £100 million would probably buy you a quarter of a Picasso, or a quarter of a mile of Crossrail, or it would pay the entire current cost of free school meals for needy primary school pupils. The cost comparisons are useless, then. Let's acknowledge that the key issue is what the French people feel about restoring Notre Dame, and let them pay for it. With maybe a little help from Unesco. Cultural icons have their value too.

BJ

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Re: Notre-Dame

#216023

Postby UncleEbenezer » April 18th, 2019, 5:18 pm

scotia wrote:So this brings me to the purpose of medieval cathedrals.

If you travel in parts of Europe that are closer than we are to their peasant roots[1], you see another aspect of it. When people have no luxuries of their own, the wealth and opulence of the Church is a sharp contrast. But that's not an us-and-them thing: it is for the poor peasants the highlight of their week, to go and participate in a collective ceremony. And while they would (metaphorically) doff their hat to the priest, the church's bright treasures are also the community's little bit of luxury.

I suspect that's a major reason (along with education) why religion thrives among poor communities but fades away as people get richer.

[1] Sicily is the best example I've seen, having been co-opted to sing there a couple of times, including once in the remote village where a Sicilian friend-of-a-friend came from.

ReformedCharacter
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Re: Notre-Dame

#216025

Postby ReformedCharacter » April 18th, 2019, 5:22 pm

scotia wrote:So I think they should get on with a cost-effective restoration - using sensible modern materials. But replacing like with like - e.g. oak beams - seems daft.

I'm no fire expert, but AFAIK oak beams have a lot of advantages and will often provide structural integrity for much longer than steel for example. Steel gets hot and then distorts and fails. Oak on the other hand will char for a long time before failing and may give firefighters valuable time to extinguish the fire before building collapse. An effective sprinkler system might be a good idea though :)

RC

scotia
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Re: Notre-Dame

#216056

Postby scotia » April 18th, 2019, 7:35 pm

Snorvey wrote:An effective sprinkler system might be a good idea though

You would think a wee prayer would suffice.

Naughty :D

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Re: Notre-Dame

#216059

Postby scotia » April 18th, 2019, 7:48 pm

ReformedCharacter wrote:
scotia wrote:So I think they should get on with a cost-effective restoration - using sensible modern materials. But replacing like with like - e.g. oak beams - seems daft.

I'm no fire expert, but AFAIK oak beams have a lot of advantages and will often provide structural integrity for much longer than steel for example. Steel gets hot and then distorts and fails. Oak on the other hand will char for a long time before failing and may give firefighters valuable time to extinguish the fire before building collapse. An effective sprinkler system might be a good idea though :)
RC

However it would be much more difficult for a workman with a blowtorch to set fire to a steel beam than an oak one! And fire resistant tiles would be safer than molten lead dripping from the roof.
Both the Glasgow Art School and Notre-Dame caught fire during "renovations". As for the sprinkler system - a modern mist suppression system was to be installed in Glasgow Art School, but was not in place when the (second) fire occurred. Maybe it should be the first system to be installed and tested before any renovation takes place.

scotia
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Re: Notre-Dame

#216062

Postby scotia » April 18th, 2019, 7:54 pm

Apologies for my slightly grumpy comments on medieval cathedrals, and thanks for your comments. Maybe I should add that I'm a bit of a hypocrite in that I do visit cathedrals and churches (for entirely non-religious reasons), and normally leave a donation - even when in St David's Cathedral I was sternly requested to remove my sun hat. The power of irrationality!


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