Chateau cock-up

[UncleEbenezer]

IMHO there is no more overrated wine than the lesser growths of Bordeaux. My one recommendation for people ordering wine in a UK restaurant would be to avoid red Bourdeaux like the plague because most of it is rubbish and quality variation is high between different vintages. You really need to know your stuff and 99.9% of people don't.

All the best, Si

I have long been cautious about French wines in general, because I'm all too aware of the high risk of ending up with a dud.

But I think that's largely historic now. They may have been slower to respond than the Italians, but competition has now pushed them into upping their game, and supermarket buyers are aware that their shoppers want to enjoy our tipple. I no longer feel the need to avoid cheap French wine.

[bungeejumper]

I remember someone recommending the Trivento Reserve Malbec back on the TMF boards years ago, and I always keep my eye out for when it's on offer anywhere.

Tesco are currently selling it for £6 a bottle, and when I've ever taken it anywhere in a social setting it gets commented on consistently as being a really nice Malbec -

https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/278363743

I'll be off to Tesco's before the night is over!

My weekday tipple at the moment is Sainsburys' Taste the Difference Primitivo, which is at £6 about half the time. (Even better during the 25% off weeks.) "Honest" stuff, very drinkable and nicely spicy. The Most Wanted Primitivo (often at £7) is a bit smoother and more fragrant, but somehow a bit more millennial.

Agree with Uncle E about the sad demise of scrumpy. When I arrived in Bath forty years ago, I asked why only one pub in the whole city sold rough cider, and the replay came: "We used to, but the tourists would get smashed on their second pint and we couldn't stand the breakages any longer". Our local rural boozers in North Somerset carried on selling it until the late 1980s - some of them would keep four or five blends to cater for different tastes - but those pubs also stopped selling it after the Bath Porsche-driving set 'discovered' it and the road accident statistics started to mount. Sadly, Porsches and scrumpy don't mix very well.

BJ

[Lootman]

I wonder if someone ordered the £260 bottle in order to impress, rather than because they were knowledgeable about wine? In which case they would never have noticed the different label or taste.

Yeah, reminds me of a story a wine waiter told me. He had a table where the guy was trying to impress and said "bring me your most expensive bottle". The waiter complied but, upon opening it to taste, realised that the wine had gone bad. The customer however could not tell and declared the wine to be "magnificent". The waiter did not want to show the guy up so poured the vinegar, which was eagerly consumed and complimented by the table.

In a nice touch, the house felt so bad about this that they brought the table a complimentary bottle of the second most expensive wine

I genuinely can't tell the difference between most cheap and expensive wine, and actually often find that I prefer the cheap one. But then I am a pleb.

[bionichamster]

It is interesting that many investors will happily pay a fortune for some shares, but only drink cheap wine!

Speaking for myself it's because I expect my shares to provide a financial income or a financial return, If I'm drinking wine I don't. I.e. I expect to get the share money back, I expect to be flushing the wine down the toilet a few hours after it's been drunk.

If I was investing in wine to sell on rather than drink then that might make sense,.

A friends wife used to specialise in high end catering for the posh, wealthy and entitled. On one occasion back in the early 90's for a large party of MPs and other dignitaries the well known Tory MP who was throwing the party amusingly instructed her to buy several boxes of Le Pait d'or and fill the carafes with it. As he said of himself and his guests, "I don't drink wine and I'm not spending a fortune on expensive stuff when the rest of them won't know the ****ing difference". While I don't doubt that many (hopefully most) people drinking £200+ bottles of wine think long and hard about their purchase and savour it there most definitely a sub-group who have little appreciation of the wine quality and for whom purchasing an expensive drink is just another gratuitous display of wealth, as many who have worked in a very expensive hotel bar or restaurant will attest.

BH

[simoan]

I have long been cautious about French wines in general, because I'm all too aware of the high risk of ending up with a dud.

But I think that's largely historic now. They may have been slower to respond than the Italians, but competition has now pushed them into upping their game, and supermarket buyers are aware that their shoppers want to enjoy our tipple. I no longer feel the need to avoid cheap French wine.

Well, if you're going to buy Red Bordeaux, I definitely wouldn't buy it from a supermarket - maybe at a push you may get a good one from M&S or the fine wine section of Waitrose, but forget the rest. Bordeaux may seem like a warm place but it's pretty much the most northerly place in Europe for being able to ripen Cabernet Sauvignon. In a bad year, it is dreadful green stalky pish. The good news is that global warming is changing things and the last three or four vintages have all been good ones. The bad news is that the wealthy Chinese have pushed prices of the decent stuff up to ridiculous levels which bare no relation to the quality of what's in the bottle. It's just another luxury product where you're buying the label. If you like Cab Sauv heavy Bordeaux blends there are plenty available from other parts of the world which are of similar quality for a fraction of the price.

All the best, Si

[sg31]

I genuinely can't tell the difference between most cheap and expensive wine, and actually often find that I prefer the cheap one. But then I am a pleb.

I like drinking red wine but being tight fisted I always buy when the offers are best. Asda often have dramatic reductions and Tesco often do £10 wines for £6 if the offers fall into place. Sainsburys are generally not worth bothering with for offers, they aren't bad but it's possible to buy cheaper elsewhere. I have no Waitrose nearby but their wine range is usually interesting. Ocado can do good deals but won't deliver to this area.

I find wines I like and try not to buy more expensive ones on the basis that I might get to like them. I know that sounds silly but if I'm happy drinking the wine I buy now what is the point in drinking something 3 times the price. My fear is the expensive wine will show me that the wine I drink now is poor and I will become dissatisfied with it. Where would it stop? I think my strategy is sensible, others might disagree, I suppose it depends on how much you drink and how much money you can/want to spend.

Tesco have a 25% off 6 bottles offer on until 27/5, you can mix any 6 wines to get the offer. These are the ones I would buy now

Trivento, normally £8, now £4.50......
https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/p ... /278363743

Casillero Del Diablo Merlot, normally £8, now £4.50.
https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/p ... /251295916

Di Marco Primitivo, normally £8, now £3.75. This is very good for this price.
https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/p ... /299639940

Penfolds Koonunga Hill Shiraz Cabernet, normally £9, now £6.75. One of my favourites.
https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/p ... /257173026

Casillero Del Diablo, Reserva Especial, Cabernet Sauvignon, normally £10 now £6
https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/p ... /299804041

Most of these are reduced before the 25% off. The reduced wines sometimes change before the 25% off offer expires so that can change which wines are best value.

[Howard]

This thread touches on one of the main reasons for investing.

Why do it, if one can’t enjoy the results?

And we all have our individual ways of spending our hard earned gains.

Why not spend some returns investing in fine wine and enjoying a few bottles on the way? The fun element of having purchased some Bordeaux is to go to a Michelin starred restaurant and enjoy the fun of seeing bottles one purchased for less than £100 some years ago on the wine list for over £1,000 a bottle. And then ordering a moderately priced bottle of something else. As Simoan says above, the Chinese have made Bordeaux investing interesting over the last 20 years.

I had to go to London and parked in my favourite underground car park in Mayfair this week and, very carefully, negotiated my modest saloon next to a Lamborghini and close to a Pagani Zonda. We may well ask why someone would pay more than a million pounds for a car. But presumably he or she had made a few good investments and was enjoying the results. Each to their own.

I’ve drunk some expensive rubbish, but many a glass of truly memorable Bordeaux.

However, in my experience, and with my not very discerning palate, it’s not worth paying a fortune for dry white wines. A modestly priced bottle of nicely chilled white is often much nicer with a meal than a very expensive more complex white wine. I don’t know whether others would agree?

And finally, if you are a keen gardener, there is no better place to drink a glass of chilled white than in your garden in the sunshine under your patio umbrella!

regards

Howard

[Lootman]

if you are a keen gardener, there is no better place to drink a glass of chilled white than in your garden in the sunshine under your patio umbrella!

I have a spot in the thicket part of my garden where there is a strategically placed bench, next to Eric (my friend and garden gnome). It is surrounded by foliage but, through a gap in it you can watch the sun set behind a church steeple. It's my sanctuary and nobody else is allowed there. Except Eric.

I can hose down a bottle of pinot grigio there with nary a thought or worry about the world.

[bionichamster]

Tesco have a 25% off 6 bottles offer on until 27/5, you can mix any 6 wines to get the offer. These are the ones I would buy now

Most of these are reduced before the 25% off. The reduced wines sometimes change before the 25% off offer expires so that can change which wines are best value.

Ah those were the days! Before the Scottish Government deemed everyone in Scotland too irresponsible to be trusted not to drink wine in heath damaging quantities if they were offered a modest discount for buying in multiples. I used to occasionally make use of such offers to stock up. Unfortunately I'm too far from Berwick or Carlisle to continue doing so.

Agree with your approach to finding some wines you like at a decent price and not venturing too much up the scale on the off chance of finding something better, I used to do that until mrs BH went completely off most wine and now it's just the occasional bottle. These day BiL buys a mixed case from one of the online places and I go and 'taste' it, if there's something I like I'll get him to get me a few bottles, which will prob last six months or so.

BH

[UncleEbenezer]

This thread touches on one of the main reasons for investing.

Why do it, if one can’t enjoy the results?
Howard

I can answer that. Investing has given me a level of financial security I never had in my first half-century. Barring some major disaster, I will never again have to sleep rough or forage for food - unless by choice. That's pretty useful for stress levels and general wellbeing.

[swill453]

This thread touches on one of the main reasons for investing.

Why do it, if one can’t enjoy the results?
Howard

I can answer that. Investing has given me a level of financial security I never had in my first half-century. Barring some major disaster, I will never again have to sleep rough or forage for food - unless by choice. That's pretty useful for stress levels and general wellbeing.

Same here. But acquiring a habit of drinking £100 bottles of wine would put it seriously at risk

Not all investors, even financially independent ones, can (or want to) be so extravagant.

Scott.

[sg31]

Ah those were the days! Before the Scottish Government deemed everyone in Scotland too irresponsible to be trusted not to drink wine in heath damaging quantities if they were offered a modest discount for buying in multiples. I used to occasionally make use of such offers to stock up. Unfortunately I'm too far from Berwick or Carlisle to continue doing so.

Agree with your approach to finding some wines you like at a decent price and not venturing too much up the scale on the off chance of finding something better, I used to do that until mrs BH went completely off most wine and now it's just the occasional bottle. These day BiL buys a mixed case from one of the online places and I go and 'taste' it, if there's something I like I'll get him to get me a few bottles, which will prob last six months or so.

BH

I sympathise, it's crazy to make everyone suffer for the reckless few.

I know it's not allowed to offer discounts in Scotland but how does that affect online purchases? If you buy from an English wine merchant online, do they refuse to send, do they change the price to the none discounted figure? What about a French online wine retailer? I can't imagine they would be too concerned about Scottish law. Or do the Revenue and Customs enforce the regulations?

I've never actually thought how the regulations operate even though I know they exist. I'm sure some enterprising Scottish gentleman must have found a way round the problem.

[dealtn]

I don't feel sorry for the restaurant at all. The mark up on wines in UK restaurants is absolutely shocking and these prices are still way above retail - the idea that the Lalande 2001 is worth £260 is a joke, because the restaurant probably only paid £60 for it on-trade. It's about time something was done about the huge markups which seem to be unique to UK restaurants. One of the great things about drinking wine in restaurants in Europe is that the wine rarely costs greatly more than the retail price. As you can tell, I hardly ever drink wine in UK restaurants and only normally do so under duress. Who on earth wants to pay £22 for a bottle of wine you know damned well retails for less than £6.

All the best, Si

Not just the mark up, but paying 10% tip on it too. Very rare I would buy a bottle over £50 in a restaurant for that reason alone.

[swill453]

I sympathise, it's crazy to make everyone suffer for the reckless few.

I know it's not allowed to offer discounts in Scotland but how does that affect online purchases?

If only it was so simple. It's not discounts that are outlawed, it's "multiple offers". So a single unit of a 24-pack of Stella can be discounted all you like (as long as it's not below the minimum alcohol unit pricing, a more recent law).

But 4-for-the-price-of-3 on £50 bottles of wine? In the slammer for you, I'm afraid.

(Sorry not sure about online sales from outlets based outside Scotland. I suspect they're not affected.)

Scott.

[Gersemi]

I sympathise, it's crazy to make everyone suffer for the reckless few.

I know it's not allowed to offer discounts in Scotland but how does that affect online purchases? If you buy from an English wine merchant online, do they refuse to send, do they change the price to the none discounted figure? What about a French online wine retailer? I can't imagine they would be too concerned about Scottish law. Or do the Revenue and Customs enforce the regulations?

I've never actually thought how the regulations operate even though I know they exist. I'm sure some enterprising Scottish gentleman must have found a way round the problem.

Details of how the minimum pricing works in Scotland is here

https://www.mygov.scot/minimum-unit-pri ... nd-offers/

It seems you can buy on-line from England without the minimum pricing applying, if you buy from Scotland to be sent to England then minimum pricing will apply.

[Lootman]

It seems you can buy on-line from England without the minimum pricing applying, if you buy from Scotland to be sent to England then minimum pricing will apply.

This fascinates me. So you'd think there would be booze shops opening up on the English side of the border. Like a reverse of Gretna Green.

Reminds me of the situation in various US states where, say, Alabama has strict licquor license laws but next-door Tennessee will sell anything to anyone. One side of the Tennessee river is littered with licquor stores (and fireworks stores for similar reasons). Same with any State that borders Utah.

Likewise the US/Canada border has many booze stores on the US side. Canada strictly controls the sale of booze.

I love to see free market capitalism overcome dumb interventionst government laws.

[kiloran]

Ah those were the days! Before the Scottish Government deemed everyone in Scotland too irresponsible to be trusted not to drink wine in heath damaging quantities if they were offered a modest discount for buying in multiples.
BH

And, of course we also have the crazy "can't buy alcohol before 10am" rule. Which means if I'm in M&S at 09:45 I am not allowed to buy a box of their cherry liqueurs .

--kiloran

[swill453]

It seems you can buy on-line from England without the minimum pricing applying, if you buy from Scotland to be sent to England then minimum pricing will apply.

This fascinates me. So you'd think there would be booze shops opening up on the English side of the border. Like a reverse of Gretna Green.

But the minimum alcohol pricing doesn't affect the price of anything most people buy. A bottle of vodka can't be less than £14, a 440ml can of 4% lager can't be less than 88p, a bottle of 12% wine can't be less than £4.50. So it's only really affected the cheaper end of the market.

I doubt if it's worth opening a shop in Berwick upon Tweed just to sell White Lightning cider to the few Scots who'd travel that far just to save a couple of quid.

The "no multiple offers" is just irritating. Before the minimum pricing rule came in, Asda couldn't sell wine at "3 for £10" in Scotland, but instead they just sold it at £3.33 each and that was fine.

Scott.

[stevensfo]

IMHO there is no more overrated wine than the lesser growths of Bordeaux. My one recommendation for people ordering wine in a UK restaurant would be to avoid red Bourdeaux like the plague because most of it is rubbish and quality variation is high between different vintages. You really need to know your stuff and 99.9% of people don't.

All the best, Si

I have long been cautious about French wines in general, because I'm all too aware of the high risk of ending up with a dud.

But I think that's largely historic now. They may have been slower to respond than the Italians, but competition has now pushed them into upping their game, and supermarket buyers are aware that their shoppers want to enjoy our tipple. I no longer feel the need to avoid cheap French wine.

I agree with this. I worked in France '89-'98 and the cheap wines were like cat's p*ss, and the beer pretty much as bad. Fast forward to Italy and the ratio price:quality is far superior. Even a cheap 5 euro Primitivo or Aglianico or Syrah will be perfectly acceptable. We do occasionally drink french reds but despite the french marketing, the Italians have them all beaten.

We also have Chianti, but I've come to the conclusion that most Chianti is either exported or is bought by tourists.

Steve

[Gersemi]

The "no multiple offers" is just irritating. Before the minimum pricing rule came in, Asda couldn't sell wine at "3 for £10" in Scotland, but instead they just sold it at £3.33 each and that was fine.

Scott.

I don't think applies any more, now it's just the case that the price per unit must be over the minimum price.