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Petition the government no NHS negotiations

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Slarti
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Re: Petition the government no NHS negotiations

#227272

Postby Slarti » June 5th, 2019, 5:56 pm

Lootman wrote:In my experience the US system is better not only if you have money but also if you have insurance. For instance as a patient I was able to choose my consultant, my hospital, the date and time of my procedure with no wait or queue, and I had a lovely private room with TV, internet, good food etc. Way better than the NHS.


If you can afford insurance and if that insurance will cover everything and keep on covering long term things, like cancer or dementia.

Oh and for the young, getting decent maternity care is also a problem, as shown by the much higher death rates of post partum mothers.

Slarti

paulnumbers
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Re: Petition the government no NHS negotiations

#227279

Postby paulnumbers » June 5th, 2019, 6:27 pm

Slarti wrote:
paulnumbers wrote:Have to say I agree, if you have good insurance.

I was in the US with my better half, and she had a minor issue. In the UK, it would have been a wait of a week, maybe a few days off work. In the US, it was an uber to the nearest healthcenter (2 minutes), seen pretty much immediately, dealt with, back at work same day.

Why we put up with the the NHS in it's current form I have no idea.


We put up with it in its current form because this government, the coalition and "New" labour before that have starved it of the necessary funds, while bringing in obviously stupid ideas like PFI.

If we upped it's funding to amywhere near what the Americans pay per head it could be a wonderful service. But I suspect that is not what many of our politicians want to happen.

Slarti


My suspicion is that the people of this country actually think it's quite good. Everything I've read suggests that's it's broadly value for money, but that is obviously a different matter.

Sussexlad
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Re: Petition the government no NHS negotiations

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Postby Sussexlad » June 5th, 2019, 7:14 pm

Lootman wrote:The idea that we can give unlimited free healthcare to everyone all the time is doomed and unsustainable.


The phrase they use is 'Free at the point of delivery'. I do wish they would make clear that it isn't free and is paid for by working taxpayers. We have virtually dispensed with the word responsibility and replaced it with entitlement, which as you say is simply unsustainable.

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Re: Petition the government no NHS negotiations

#227298

Postby Archtronics » June 5th, 2019, 7:27 pm

Public support of the NHS is still very high the govt knows that.

What is interesting is how little people trust the UK govt to act in there interest during trade negotiations.

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Re: Petition the government no NHS negotiations

#227312

Postby monabri » June 5th, 2019, 8:45 pm

Over 91,000 signatures..another 9000 needed for Parliament debate.

I would mandate that ALL MPs and their immediate family only use their NHS and not be allowed to " go private".

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Re: Petition the government no NHS negotiations

#227317

Postby scrumpyjack » June 5th, 2019, 9:18 pm

This is a storm in a non existent tea cup. All parties know the NHS is sacred and cannot be touched, and the conservatives continue to plough more and more funds into it as they are terrified of being attacked if they don't. In any organisation that size there will be huge inefficiencies but the American system wastes vast amounts of money on the overheads of insurance companies, billing recoveries and financial admin.

I did read somewhere that overall the health outcome in the UK was better on average than in the US in spite of the US spending a far higher proportion of GDP. Not surprising as a lot of US cost goes into running insurance companies and not treating patients.

Obviously in the US if you have an insurance policy that covers whatever you want you can choose to see the top man in an extremely comfortable hospital and not have to wait. For most people in the US that is a pipedream and for those uninsured the system can be catastrophic.

I have had excellent care in the NHS over the last couple of years for serious problems - could not fault it in any way. For less serious problems I elected to go private rather than wait months (not insured), and in doing so freed up resources for others less fortunate.

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Re: Petition the government no NHS negotiations

#227321

Postby UncleEbenezer » June 5th, 2019, 9:31 pm

paulnumbers wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:
paulnumbers wrote:Aren't parts of the NHS already outsourced? How exactly would it differ with American companies getting involved? Are they currently blocked?

Longish discussion of this on t'wireless earlier. US pharma are lobbying hard to prevent the NHS using its monopoly power to haggle drug prices down, or to refuse to use a drug that's too overpriced.

I suspect the 'merkins will allow this one to be negotiated away. They're more concerned about the agri-biotech lobby getting us to drop our food standards. Hence Trump's desire to meet up with Gove, who on Jan.5th ruled out accepting food imports to lower standards.


Oh I see, interesting.

Do you remember what program it was? Wouldn't mind a listen.

I think it was probably The World at One. That's based on when I recollect the radio having been on for a news programme.

My first paragraph is a (probably-muddled) summary of what they discussed. The second is what I suspected as soon as Trump said NHS, and was (I think) in line with some of the commentary.

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Re: Petition the government no NHS negotiations

#227336

Postby UncleEbenezer » June 6th, 2019, 12:18 am

Lootman wrote:The idea that we can give unlimited free healthcare to everyone all the time is doomed and unsustainable.

Of course we can't.

Where the NHS has a huge advantage is that amongst those who have experienced a time of real need, it's only the winners in the NHS lottery who survive to rate their care and treatment.

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Re: Petition the government no NHS negotiations

#227344

Postby Sussexlad » June 6th, 2019, 6:18 am

UncleEbenezer wrote:Where the NHS has a huge advantage is that amongst those who have experienced a time of real need, it's only the winners in the NHS lottery who survive to rate their care and treatment.


I've always thought that exactly the same point could be made about those who thank God for their survival/rescue etc. We of course never hear from those who don't make it !

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Re: Petition the government no NHS negotiations

#227350

Postby Dod101 » June 6th, 2019, 7:43 am

paulnumbers wrote:[Why we put up with the the NHS in it's current form I have no idea.


We put up with it because of two issues I think. The first is that no one has the time in the NHS to stand back and decide what can be done to improve things; they are too busy trying to keep things sort of under control. The second is that no Government is prepared to say what is really wrong with the NHS which is that it is trying to be everything to everyone. There are loads of procedures, cosmetic, IVF, and other more or less voluntary stuff which the NHS should not be providing. We should also have some sort of charge (say £10 a time ) to see your GP except for those who simply cannot afford it, so as to stop frivolous visits.

The well publicised overt over charging for drugs should be stopped. There should be encouragement for those who can afford it to go privately although I suspect that would not really make a lot of difference.

I have had a lot of experience of the NHS over the years (not personally but with family members) and have cause to be grateful that it is there but it is an insurance policy with no limits and in fact an open ended coverage. No sane organisation would or could offer that. No matter how much funding it gets will never be enough.

Dod

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Re: Petition the government no NHS negotiations

#227361

Postby UncleEbenezer » June 6th, 2019, 8:48 am

Sussexlad wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:Where the NHS has a huge advantage is that amongst those who have experienced a time of real need, it's only the winners in the NHS lottery who survive to rate their care and treatment.


I've always thought that exactly the same point could be made about those who thank God for their survival/rescue etc. We of course never hear from those who don't make it !


Interesting analogy there.

Your close family member has cancer and needs an urgent operation. God promises it, on a week-after-next basis. Do you let that stop you pooling finances across family members to raise money to go private? That £15k contribution is quite a setback for $son's hopes of "getting on the housing ladder".

As that timeframe slips and the week-after-next promise is still there several months later, how long do you leave it?

When those four months you lost prove to have taken you to too late, who do you blame? God? Or yourself, for having believed His promises?

Substitute the NHS for God in that and you have a real-life story of my family 5-6 years ago. We'd never have let a promise from God influence us, but we very foolishly believed in the NHS until it was too late. Perhaps God would've been a better bet? The US system - with no empty promises to lead us astray - certainly would.

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Re: Petition the government no NHS negotiations

#227362

Postby Lootman » June 6th, 2019, 8:57 am

Dod101 wrote:
paulnumbers wrote:[Why we put up with the the NHS in it's current form I have no idea.

We put up with it because of two issues I think. The first is that no one has the time in the NHS to stand back and decide what can be done to improve things; they are too busy trying to keep things sort of under control. The second is that no Government is prepared to say what is really wrong with the NHS which is that it is trying to be everything to everyone. There are loads of procedures, cosmetic, IVF, and other more or less voluntary stuff which the NHS should not be providing. We should also have some sort of charge (say £10 a time ) to see your GP except for those who simply cannot afford it, so as to stop frivolous visits.

Governments are scared to tackle the NHS problems because the voters are irrationally in love with the NHS. So politicians believe that they cannot make the kind of changes you are suggesting (which I fully agree with) because they think they will get voted out. (*)

You could claim that is democracy in action but the key word I used above is "irrationally". I think most voters just love that it is "free" - something for nothing, they think.

We need to change the mindset so that people develop a willingness to pay for healthcare directly and at the point of delivery, even if it is only a token charge like the £10 you mention. This is happening now of necessity anyway with services like dental and vision, which most people pay for these days. And what else is more important than your health? Why wouldn't you want to spend money on it to improve your outcomes?

As an example this week my foot was bothering me and so I did something I very rarely do. I went to see my NHS doctor. She said she wanted to refer me to a NHS podiatrist but told me that the waiting time would be "several months". Or I could pay for a private foot specialist and be seen the next day. Obviously I chose the latter.

The NHS should be a last resort of the destitute and not a free service for everyone. And buying health insurance should be as normal (and perhaps as mandatory) as buying motor insurance.

(*) As an example when the Leave campaign were claiming we would save £350 million a week they went beyond just saying that and actually invoked the idea that it would go to the NHS. Likewise in the last GE the LibDems wanted to add 1p to the basic rate of tax "for the NHS". Or listen to any Labour politician who will be predictably maudlin about "more money for the NHS". The fact is that politicians know we are brainwashed, and that we can be bribed with our own money.
Last edited by Lootman on June 6th, 2019, 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

bungeejumper
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Re: Petition the government no NHS negotiations

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Postby bungeejumper » June 6th, 2019, 9:07 am

Dod101 wrote:I have had a lot of experience of the NHS over the years (not personally but with family members) and have cause to be grateful that it is there but it is an insurance policy with no limits and in fact an open ended coverage. No sane organisation would or could offer that. No matter how much funding it gets will never be enough.

I've had something of a charmed life for most of it - the occasional broken bone, gashes and slashes, but nothing that wasn't readily fixable - but inevitably, I suppose, my relationship with the NHS was going to become more 'intensive' after I turned 60.

Seven years ago, I was hospitalised with the kind of pneumonia that can kill you in three days. (They don't call it lung gangrene for nothing. As per the 1918 Spanish flu epidemic :( ) And I was whipped straight into hospital as soon as they saw my X rays, no questions asked, and really wonderfully cared for. First class. Even the food was good!

Then, a year ago, a routine NHS test identified a small cancer in my gut (and two pre-cancerous, and some very large benign tumours as well), and it was all removed almost before I knew it was there. With care, dignity, good humour and respect. Followed by a whole year's worth of follow-up checks, which will now continue for five years. The only part of the process which I did privately was to get the CT scans and the MRIs done at the local private hospital because the NHS hospital's scanners were booked up solid for a month. I am officially fixed now. And totally impressed by the experience. :)

A friend, however, had an experience which really put the "care at the point of need" issue to the test. Seventy-ish, and not affluent, she had terminal cancer, with maybe three months to live - and then she fell over one morning and broke her hip. The NHS hospital gave her a replacement hip the next day, no hesitation and no quibbling, so that she was able to see out the last of her days in relative comfort and with full mobility. So was that hip op "a waste of resources"? I expect an accountant or an insurance company actuary would say so. ;) But for me, the fact that the NHS didn't think that way says something pretty important about what a precious organisation we have on this side of the pond.

BJ

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Re: Petition the government no NHS negotiations

#227410

Postby UncleIan » June 6th, 2019, 10:58 am

NHS, Brexit, religion. Articles of faith all three. No point trying to change people's minds, most are closed.

I'm glad that if I were ill, there's not a company whose goal is profit rather than my health that's decided what treatment I should get.

I mean, if I have a series of unfortunate events, and no one will insure me to drive a car, then I could arrange my life to take a bus, or train, or cycle, or something, but if no-one will insure me for some weird thing I've got...my health and life worth less than someone else's because of my ability to pay? Sounds a bit crap to me.

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Re: Petition the government no NHS negotiations

#227443

Postby vrdiver » June 6th, 2019, 11:43 am

UncleIan wrote:NHS, Brexit, religion. Articles of faith all three. No point trying to change people's minds, most are closed.

I'm glad that if I were ill, there's not a company whose goal is profit rather than my health that's decided what treatment I should get.

The NHS may not be driven by profit, but it is influenced by cost.

A recent example (anecdote*, not proof of anything, just to be clear).
A friend turned 55 and within 3 months was invited for a bowel scope screening at their local hospital. It's a relatively new offering within this particular NHS trust, based on clinical evidence that bowel screening detects early growths that could become cancerous, so saves lives by treating cancers earlier.

Anyhow, part of the procedure involves giving yourself an enema (with the kit provided) just prior to your appointment, so the scope can get an uncluttered look around. (This was told in the pub - I'll leave out the details of that bit of the procedure).

All is done and off he toddles to the hospital, arriving 10 minutes early. Unfortunately there is a 3.5 delay before he is seen, by which time the view in the scope is somewhat limited due to normal gut activity doing its thing for the last four or so hours.

He is informed that the screening is ineffective due to the excess material blocking the view, but was also told he would not be offered another appointment until his next normal screening date, as they didn't have the budget to provide repeat tests for situations like his.

NHS: box ticked - yes.
NHS: goal achieved - no.
NHS: room for improvement - absolutely.

That individuals within the NHS tries to do the best they can, I have no doubt, and as others have attested in this thread, they can do a really good job when allowed to. However, they are also under conflicting objectives and struggle to balance limited resources, as well as those resources having been both politicised and used as a political football for decades.

To your point that you are happy that the medical choices are in the hands of the NHS rather than an executive with a profit motive; it really depends on the nature of your illness and your local NHS trust as to whether their priorities will align with your needs:

When I broke a few bones (my own) I was taken to the local (to the accident) A&E which happened to be about 300 miles from where I actually live. I was seen immediately, sedated and booked into surgery within a couple of hours of the event. All good and a very happy customer at the end of it all.

18 months on and some of the screws from the metal plates pinning the bits of bone together were starting to break through my skin and cause problems. My (now local-to-home) consultant advised me to put up with it as it would settle down in due course.

A private consultation with another consultant told me that for my type of injury, the metal plates were routinely removed on the continent, exactly because of the issues I was having, but the NHS avoided doing this due to the cost unless absolutely unavoidable.

I went private and no longer have the metal plates (they had done their job by then).

I could offer more anecdotes, but I'm sure everyone has enough of their own. My observations from personal and family/friends/colleagues can be summarised in that the NHS does a great job where it does a great job, but is, remarkably, too often blocked from finishing a job properly, or guilty of delaying tactics so as to limit costs in the short term. It also has some incredible inefficiencies in terms of workflow and communications processes.

VRD


*I chose this anecdote as I have also recently turned 55 and just received the same invitation, so somewhat apprehensive!

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Re: Petition the government no NHS negotiations

#227465

Postby UncleEbenezer » June 6th, 2019, 12:51 pm

vrdiver wrote:A friend turned 55 and within 3 months was invited for a bowel scope screening at their local hospital.

Interesting. I just googled bowel scope screening, and it seems I should have had it (having turned 55 shortly after the date of their leaflet).

Where did your invite come from? Your GP, or something more centralised?

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Re: Petition the government no NHS negotiations

#227475

Postby vrdiver » June 6th, 2019, 1:13 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
vrdiver wrote:A friend turned 55 and within 3 months was invited for a bowel scope screening at their local hospital.

Interesting. I just googled bowel scope screening, and it seems I should have had it (having turned 55 shortly after the date of their leaflet).

Where did your invite come from? Your GP, or something more centralised?

The letter is addressed from the "Midlands and North West Bowel Cancer Screening Programme Hub".

I presume your GP would be able to confirm if your NHS region has such a programme and if so, what you can expect from it. I certainly had never heard about it until a (slightly older) friend recounted his experience.

If you want to contact them directly, the email on the letter is: bowelscreening @ nhs.net (remove the spaces either side of "@").

Mods - hope it's OK to include the above email address for information? If not, please substitute with "pm me if you want the bowelscreening email address to contact them directly".

VRD

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Re: Petition the government no NHS negotiations

#227482

Postby Gengulphus » June 6th, 2019, 1:42 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:Interesting. I just googled bowel scope screening, and it seems I should have had it (having turned 55 shortly after the date of their leaflet).

Where did your invite come from? Your GP, or something more centralised?

The NHS link https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/bowel-can ... screening/ provides a phone number to call for such enquiries:

When it's offered

Bowel scope screening is being rolled out to all men and women in England aged 55. Depending on where you live, it may not be offered in your area yet.

If you're registered with a GP and live in an area where the test is available, you'll automatically be sent an invitation. Call the free bowel cancer screening helpline on 0800 707 60 60 to check if it's available in your area.

It's a one-off test, and you'll only be invited to have it once.

If you decide not to have the test straight away, you can have it at any point up to your 60th birthday. Call the free bowel cancer screening helpline on 0800 707 60 60 to arrange an appointment.

From 60 onwards, you'll be invited to do a bowel cancer screening home test kit every 2 years instead.

Gengulphus

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Re: Petition the government no NHS negotiations

#227491

Postby bungeejumper » June 6th, 2019, 2:14 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
vrdiver wrote:A friend turned 55 and within 3 months was invited for a bowel scope screening at their local hospital.

Interesting. I just googled bowel scope screening, and it seems I should have had it (having turned 55 shortly after the date of their leaflet)?

I hadn't heard of the "quickie enema" procedure being offered widely at 55 before, but this sounds good. Having had my own run-in with this thing, I'd urge anybody to take it up if they get the chance. Bowel cancer is Britain's number four cancer killer (number three in America because of their crap diet and poor exercise regimes), but the cure rates in the UK are very high indeed if they can catch it in time.

Just to make it all easier, it's usually a really slow growing cancer, which takes eight to ten years to go from pre-cancerous to the full nasty. (And even then they can just snip it out during day surgery if it hasn't spread.) So what's not to be gained by getting yourself checked out early? :)

But there's a mixture of taboo and misinformation that puts people off. Normally, we English just get the poo sticks tests from age 60 (soon to be reduced 50, as it already is in Scotland). Followed, in only about one in 50 tests, by the full outpatient colonoscopy, preceded of course by the notorious nuclear-force Movi-Prep. Of those one-in-fifty full colonoscopies, only one in sixteen investigations, produces any sign of cancer - the other 15 are usually haemorrhoids, IBS, diverticulitis, benign polyps, or having too much iron in your diet. (Seriously...)

A halfway house like this using an enema is a lot less trouble! I had one of those last year (alongside three of the full Montezumas), and the hospital (in Cheltenham) had it down to a non-stop production line. You turned up, and 45 mins before your examination the nurses gave you the preparation, and then it was all a totally predictable conveyor-belt process from there. No chance of what happened to vrdiver's friend.

I'd add more details, but this really isn't the right board. PM me, anybody, for info.

The alarming thing, to me, is (a) that 40% of the over-60s don't do the poo tests at all, and (b) that, of those who are called in for a 20 minute colonoscopy, one in four say they won't have it done because they'd rather not know. Incomprehensible.....

BJ

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Re: Petition the government no NHS negotiations

#227510

Postby didds » June 6th, 2019, 3:32 pm

Slarti wrote:If we upped it's funding to amywhere near what the Americans pay per head it could be a wonderful service. But I suspect that is not what many of our politicians want to happen.

Slarti



and I perceive that for all the public hand wringing what may voters would be willing to pay. The basic approach appears to be a wish for a Scandinavian level of social support at minimal tax rates.

whatever.

didds


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