Short call to arms - vote for Boris Johnson

[malkymoo]

NI is only payable on hard-earned income.
Now what demographic is particularly overrepresented in Boris's prospective leadership-last-two electorate?

Just in case the younger sector are unaware - we pensioners do not pay NI - and we are probably the largest consumer of its largesse.
So the poor youngsters without a Bank of Mum & Dad who are repaying student debt and are struggling to afford a mortgage probably feel pretty hard done by - especially if they now have to face an increase in NI to help out wealthy pensioners!

Indeed. I have long thought that pensioners ought to pay NI on income over a threshold of say £10k, perhaps at a reduced rate of 5%, for the reasons described above.

[UncleEbenezer]

Indeed. I have long thought that pensioners ought to pay NI on income over a threshold of say £10k, perhaps at a reduced rate of 5%, for the reasons described above.

Sticking plaster again! Just be honest and roll the two taxes into one. And aim to shift it away from productive activity and onto destructive things instead, but that's another argument.

I've seen my generation lose out on a lot of financial privileges enjoyed by older cohorts, and I do resent it. But if (as seems entirely likely) NI and Income tax get merged just in time to tax my pension, that's one thing I'll still welcome.

[malkymoo]

Indeed. I have long thought that pensioners ought to pay NI on income over a threshold of say £10k, perhaps at a reduced rate of 5%, for the reasons described above.

Sticking plaster again! Just be honest and roll the two taxes into one. And aim to shift it away from productive activity and onto destructive things instead, but that's another argument.

I've seen my generation lose out on a lot of financial privileges enjoyed by older cohorts, and I do resent it. But if (as seems entirely likely) NI and Income tax get merged just in time to tax my pension, that's one thing I'll still welcome.

I can't disagree with that. I should mention that I am a pensioner myself, and consider that better-off pensioners are over-privileged.

[swill453]

There was also a similar adjustment of the NI rate bands so employees now pay 12% up to £50004 this year, which if BJ is carrying on this trend means that beneficiaries of the policy will save 20% tax but probably pay 12% NI, so it would "only" be an extra £200/month in the pocket of people earning £80 - £150k. rather than the £500 the headline rate suggests.

Pity the "poor" high earners in Scotland. Holyrood controls the tax bands, so very unlikely to mirror BJ's changes (the higher rate band here is already significantly lower than the rest of the UK).

But NI changes are reserved to Westminster, so no way to avoid any increase in that.

Scott.

[StepOne]

I agree that the bands should shift, and the higher rate band has just gone up nearly 8% this year from £46351 to £50000, compared to a 5.5% rise in the personal allowance.

Except for viewers in Scotland....*

StepOne

*Might not make sense to everyone, but used to be commonly heard on tv North of the Border : "Coming up on BBC1, Match of the Day, except for viewers in Scotland who have their own programming". Normally the Beechgrove Garden.

[Lootman]

The USA is the only major economy with a sales tax, others are mnoving away from sales taxes to VAT because of the capacity for fraud in sales tax systems.

The US does not have a sales tax. The situation is rather that individual States are allowed to impose a sales tax, but not all of them choose to do so. As an example the state of Oregon has no sales tax and so attracts a lot of shoppers from neighbouring Washington state, much to the chagrin of WA tax collectors. There are similar anomalies and arbitrage possibilities across the US.

Alaska, Delaware, New Hampshire and Montana also have no sales tax, although some allow counties and cities to apply their own. Moreover, a lot of mail order and online sales are not charged sales tax.

As for fraud with sales tax, I do not see why it would be any easier than with VAT. It is not unusual to be told something like "pay in cash and we'll forget about the VAT".

[Eboli]

Uncle Ebenezer said:

Sticking plaster again! Just be honest and roll the two taxes into one. And aim to shift it away from productive activity and onto destructive things instead, but that's another argument. I've seen my generation lose out on a lot of financial privileges enjoyed by older cohorts, and I do resent it. But if (as seems entirely likely) NI and Income tax get merged just in time to tax my pension, that's one thing I'll still welcome.

Unfortunately this is earned-income-centric and fails to understand the nature of income tax.

Remember NICs are not applied to property income (old style Schedule A); other forms of income such as interest (old style Schedule D Case 3); pure income profits and some overseas income (old style Schedule D Case 4 and 5); and other income not otherwise brought into tax (old style Schedule D Case 6). There are very good reasons why NICs are NOT just simply another form of income tax and have not been so since the temporary introduction of income tax at the end of 18th century. If you start blurring the earned and unearned income boundary then all sorts of consequences follow in other taxes (to name just one example what counts as an activity that qualifies for retirement relief under CGT).

Indeed NICs have one of the highest excess burdens of taxation - that is a form of taxation that reduces overall productivity for any marginal increase compared with other forms of taxation. If you really want to raise more money and increase economic productivity you should shift NICs to a tax on economic rents on land and property. But I can already hear the howls....

Eb.

[ffacoffipawb64]

NI is only payable on hard-earned income.
Now what demographic is particularly overrepresented in Boris's prospective leadership-last-two electorate?

Just in case the younger sector are unaware - we pensioners do not pay NI - and we are probably the largest consumer of its largesse.
So the poor youngsters without a Bank of Mum & Dad who are repaying student debt and are struggling to afford a mortgage probably feel pretty hard done by - especially if they now have to face an increase in NI to help out wealthy pensioners!

Unless paid via salary sacrifice, the money held in pension schemes have already borne NI contributions. It would be very unfair to levy NI on any income from these pensions as it would be a double dip.

[Alaric]

It would be very unfair to levy NI on any income from these pensions as it would be a double dip.

That is a valid point. Assume tax is 20% and NI 10%. For every £ 100 paid out by your employer as salary, wage or earned as self employment, you get to keep £ 70. The tax can be reclaimed and deferred by making a £ 80 net pension contribution, but the NI is gone for good.

[scrumpyjack]

Except where the amount paid into your pension is not included in your salary, eg by salary sacrifice or by employers contribution to your pension scheme or any funding of a defined benefits pension scheme that is not from an employee contribution.

Non of those have suffered NI!

It is all rather a mess!

[scotia]

. It would be very unfair to levy NI on any income from these pensions as it would be a double dip.

But for those of us who continued working (out of choice - not necessity) way past retirement age, our earned income was not subject to NI. I still think youngsters are getting a raw deal, when compared to pensioners! But then pensioners always vote - but not necessarily younger persons, and I don't know why.

[UncleEbenezer]

. It would be very unfair to levy NI on any income from these pensions as it would be a double dip.

But for those of us who continued working (out of choice - not necessity) way past retirement age, our earned income was not subject to NI. I still think youngsters are getting a raw deal, when compared to pensioners! But then pensioners always vote - but not necessarily younger persons, and I don't know why.

Give it time. Today's youngsters have powers their parents didn't. Perhaps not least, a right to vote that isn't lost for at least a year every time you move house, that naturally disenfranchised disproportionate numbers of younger folks.

My own track record in the six general elections from reaching voting age to the rule change that enfranchised people like me (between the 2005 and 2010 elections) was that I'd actually had the vote in just one of those six elections.

Hate to say this, but listening to Hunt makes me want to support Boris. At least, until I next contemplate the latter.

[bungeejumper]

Hate to say this, but listening to Hunt makes me want to support Boris. At least, until I next contemplate the latter.

Hate to say this, but Hunt is a self-made multi-millionaire. And that fact alone makes me inclined to disregard his often difficult past behaviour, especially in a head-to-head with "f*ck business" Johnson. The guy has been there, negotiated his deals and dealt pragmatically with the realities of the day. How very different from the flatulent darling of the senescent Tory membership, who has never done a day's work in his life that required any real effort.

BJ