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This evening's news

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Slarti
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Re: This evening's news

#237268

Postby Slarti » July 17th, 2019, 3:27 pm

Howyoudoin wrote:It's simply a matter of priorities.

There are currently more than 4 million people on the NHS waiting list and I don't think this is a sensible diversion of resources.

That's the PC version of what I was trying to say before.

HYD


From the story as I saw it,that was private surgery, paid for by someone, or some organisation, in Pakistan. And finding that someone was what delayed things by a year.

Also, on the lunchtime news as a follow on to the story, the 2 surgeons went to see the 2 girls in Northern Ireland that they did a very similar job on, 8 years ago. They looked like 2 normal 8/9 year olds.

Slarti

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Re: This evening's news

#237275

Postby Howyoudoin » July 17th, 2019, 4:05 pm

Slarti wrote:
Howyoudoin wrote:It's simply a matter of priorities.

There are currently more than 4 million people on the NHS waiting list and I don't think this is a sensible diversion of resources.

That's the PC version of what I was trying to say before.

HYD


From the story as I saw it,that was private surgery, paid for by someone, or some organisation, in Pakistan. And finding that someone was what delayed things by a year.

Also, on the lunchtime news as a follow on to the story, the 2 surgeons went to see the 2 girls in Northern Ireland that they did a very similar job on, 8 years ago. They looked like 2 normal 8/9 year olds.

Slarti


I'm aware that the surgery was paid for by a donor but don't know whether it was conducted by NHS or private staff.

The lead surgeon is listed as a full time employee on the NHS GOSH website https://www.gosh.nhs.uk/our-people/staf ... se-jeelani although it does say under 'Other interests' that he does some private work. But would he be allowed to do that work at GOSH?

Rather ominously I also found the following: https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... safa-marwa

The operations added up to more than 50 hours of surgery time and involved 100 members of GOSH staff.

HYD

Slarti
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Re: This evening's news

#237281

Postby Slarti » July 17th, 2019, 4:25 pm

Howyoudoin wrote:I'm aware that the surgery was paid for by a donor but don't know whether it was conducted by NHS or private staff.

The lead surgeon is listed as a full time employee on the NHS GOSH website https://www.gosh.nhs.uk/our-people/staf ... se-jeelani although it does say under 'Other interests' that he does some private work. But would he be allowed to do that work at GOSH?

Rather ominously I also found the following: https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... safa-marwa

The operations added up to more than 50 hours of surgery time and involved 100 members of GOSH staff.

HYD


"It is closely associated with University College London (UCL) and in partnership with the UCL Great Ormond Street Institute of Child Health, which is adjacent to it, is the largest centre for research and postgraduate teaching in children's health in Europe."

So if GOSH resources were used you could always look on it as training and research.

Even if it wasn't the morally correct thing to do.

Slarti

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Re: This evening's news

#237290

Postby swill453 » July 17th, 2019, 5:15 pm

Howyoudoin wrote:Rather ominously I also found the following: https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... safa-marwa

The operations added up to more than 50 hours of surgery time and involved 100 members of GOSH staff.

I'd presume the donor paid for that too.

The various "Hospital" type programmes that have been on TV in recent years show that it is very typical for NHS resources to be used to treat people from other countries, and there are admin departments whose task is to get those bills paid by someone.

(Unless of course covered by reciprocal agreements like the EHIC scheme.)

Scott.

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Re: This evening's news

#237315

Postby monabri » July 17th, 2019, 6:58 pm

Number 71...don't come in, your time's not up!

There was a report on the BBC news concerning a chap who had a heart transplant at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Brum. He was "number 71". His mum commented that they said it might give him another 6 months...

25 years later he's getting ready to do the Three Peaks !

( the record for survival after a heart transplant is 34 years and 261 days..according to Guinness World Records).

XFool
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Re: This evening's news

#237317

Postby XFool » July 17th, 2019, 7:05 pm

Stansted 'disruptive passenger': Woman faces £85,000 bill

BBC News

Good.

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Re: This evening's news

#237335

Postby Dod101 » July 17th, 2019, 8:01 pm

And if HYD takes his news from the Guardian that helps to explain quite a lot.

Dod

Howyoudoin
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Re: This evening's news

#237339

Postby Howyoudoin » July 17th, 2019, 8:16 pm

Dod101 wrote:And if HYD takes his news from the Guardian that helps to explain quite a lot.

Dod


Now who’s not talking sense.

HYD

Itsallaguess
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Re: This evening's news

#237362

Postby Itsallaguess » July 17th, 2019, 9:19 pm

Howyoudoin wrote:
There are currently more than 4 million people on the NHS waiting list and I don't think this [splitting two conjoined twins] is a sensible diversion of resources.


Might you agree that within that NHS waiting list of 4 million people, there might be better candidates to knock off the list than two young children that have had the unfortunate luck of being born joined at the head?

Itsallaguess

AsleepInYorkshire
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Re: This evening's news

#237373

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » July 17th, 2019, 9:52 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
Howyoudoin wrote:
There are currently more than 4 million people on the NHS waiting list and I don't think this [splitting two conjoined twins] is a sensible diversion of resources.

Might you agree that within that NHS waiting list of 4 million people, there might be better candidates to knock off the list than two young children that have had the unfortunate luck of being born joined at the head?

Itsallaguess

I'd like to share my thoughts please. I have had a wicked time with my own illness. Life changing on every level. Bad luck? I couldn't read about the two twins. I often find myself in tears when I read about others plights, especially children. I am not going to lie and say I am not bitter about my late diagnosis. I do know though that for me, at least, the quality of my life is far more precious than the length.

I think that the chances of these two children having a better quality of life separated than conjoined will have been taken into account by the medical team. And then it's up to someone, somewhere to find the money to pay for it all. And that's not in question for me. And if some of that came from the NHS then so be it. They owe me enough for not diagnosing me correctly for 40 years.

Sometimes it's not about the money. Sometimes it's about something far more valuable. Humanity. It's the right thing to do.

AiY

Itsallaguess
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Re: This evening's news

#237377

Postby Itsallaguess » July 17th, 2019, 10:04 pm

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:
Sometimes it's not about the money. Sometimes it's about something far more valuable. Humanity. It's the right thing to do.


Absolutely.

Operations like this are, to me at least, similar to the moon-landings in terms of righteous human endeavour.

And that's before we get to the long-term flow-downs that naturally come out of performing such high-precision and lengthy medical procedures of such rarity - the benefits of which will be huge and very long-term for the medical profession itself, never mind the patients that are to benefit also...

Of course all of the medical personnel involved here will know this very well, and that's why such procedures find a way to be both manned and financed....

I agree that there's a real argument to be had over where we focus and prioritise medical attention that is to be delivered with scarce finances, but I'm sorry to say that these poor twins really aren't the place to start that argument....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: This evening's news

#237402

Postby ReformedCharacter » July 18th, 2019, 12:43 am

As I mentioned earlier, my wife works at a school for extremely disabled children. Most people who visit the school for the first time are initially taken aback to find that children with such disabilities are in a school not a hospital. To paint a brief picture, the majority of children are fed through a tube, some are deaf\blind, some have seizures many times a day, some die before they are old enough to leave school...

I haven't seen the BBC story about the Siamese twins so I can't comment about them specifically apart from the fact that I had a look at a picture of them and thought that they looked pretty healthy and - without knowing more - that they might live to enjoy a good quality of life, however one might define it.

A significant proportion of the children at this school were born prematurely and have disabilities as a consequence of being born prematurely or as an additional factor to some other problem. Babies born at less than 32 weeks generally have some sort of health consequences as a result of their prematurity. But the ability to keep premature babies alive has improved and continues to do so. At this school are children born after as few as 23 weeks. Babies born at this stage fit inside an upturned hand. Supporting a child like this to the age of 18 will cost several, perhaps many millions of pounds and they will almost certainly need extensive support for the rest of their lives. Some will have what we might call a reasonable quality of life and some definitely won't. But then many fully able people don't enjoy a reasonable quality of life either.

Doctors and nurses are trained to keep babies alive, it's what they do. It just isn't appropriate to blame them for the fact that such children live. Such decisions should be made by legislators who - one would hope - represent the views of society in general. It isn't a simple issue, such debate seems to be generally avoided, perhaps because it is just too difficult to expect consensus.

RC

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Re: This evening's news

#237455

Postby Howyoudoin » July 18th, 2019, 10:19 am

Itsallaguess wrote:
Howyoudoin wrote:
There are currently more than 4 million people on the NHS waiting list and I don't think this [splitting two conjoined twins] is a sensible diversion of resources.


Might you agree that within that NHS waiting list of 4 million people, there might be better candidates to knock off the list than two young children that have had the unfortunate luck of being born joined at the head?

Itsallaguess


Absolutely, I agree with you.


ReformedCharacter wrote:Doctors and nurses are trained to keep babies alive, it's what they do. It just isn't appropriate to blame them for the fact that such children live. Such decisions should be made by legislators who - one would hope - represent the views of society in general. It isn't a simple issue, such debate seems to be generally avoided, perhaps because it is just too difficult to expect consensus.
RC


Again, I completely agree with what you have said.

There has been a slight misunderstanding of my previous words, "I blame the Doctors and Nurses . . ."

Whereas I do not agree that resources should have been thrown at this by GOSH, my real anger was directed at those responsible for not picking up that these poor babies were conjoined twins before the birth and informing the parents. They were completely unaware. That, to me, is a catastrophic error.

Those who remember me from my TMF days will know that I have experience with the severely disabled and deaf/blind. So i'm not just putting my finger in the wind here when I talk about quality of life. We had one deaf/blind guy who was turned down twice by Channel 4's 'Undateables' because he was 'too undateable'. Try explaining that to him.

To conclude, like everyone else, I hope and wish that these two girls are now able to live a long and healthy life.

I'm just a realist.

HYD

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Re: This evening's news

#237505

Postby jfgw » July 18th, 2019, 12:50 pm

XFool wrote:Stansted 'disruptive passenger': Woman faces £85,000 bill

BBC News


The woman attempted to open the aircraft doors during the flight and displayed a "catalogue of aggressive, abusive and dangerous behaviour" before being restrained by staff and passengers, according to the airline.


It would be interesting to have some more details about this case. I would not expect someone who is merely aggressive (rather than psychotic) to try to open the aircraft doors. There is more to this.

If she was a nervous flyer, she may have been prescribed something to calm her down. All medicines have potential side-effects. Benzodiazepines, which include diazepam (Valium) and Alprazolam (Xanex), as well as other types of drug, may be prescribed for this and can have severe paradoxical side-effects.

https://www.bmj.com/content/358/bmj.j3697/rr-4

At least, she didn't kill anyone,

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-styl ... 59876.html

These effects may be very rare but how many people take these drugs for aviophobia each day?

Many doctors have a simplified knowledge of what drugs do and some seem to be oblivious to the possibility of side-effects. I recall reading of a woman who wrote a book on her experience of spending a year in a mental health ward after being prescribed Valium. When she transferred to a different unit, her antidepressants were stopped and her psychosis was cured.

Of course, what happened may not be related to a prescribed medicine at all. It could be an illicit drug, a particularly bad time of the month or some other unrelated reason.

What I will say is that, for the same reason that I expect lottery jackpot winners to be announced (despite the low odds of winning), I would also expect prescription-induced disruptive behaviour on an aircraft to be reported.


Julian F. G. W.

XFool
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Re: This evening's news

#237514

Postby XFool » July 18th, 2019, 1:05 pm

jfgw wrote:
XFool wrote:Stansted 'disruptive passenger': Woman faces £85,000 bill

BBC News

The woman attempted to open the aircraft doors during the flight and displayed a "catalogue of aggressive, abusive and dangerous behaviour" before being restrained by staff and passengers, according to the airline.

It would be interesting to have some more details about this case. I would not expect someone who is merely aggressive (rather than psychotic) to try to open the aircraft doors. There is more to this.

You may well be right. The same thoughts crossed my mind. We just don't know...

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Re: This evening's news

#237842

Postby Slarti » July 19th, 2019, 5:06 pm

Howyoudoin wrote:Whereas I do not agree that resources should have been thrown at this by GOSH, my real anger was directed at those responsible for not picking up that these poor babies were conjoined twins before the birth and informing the parents. They were completely unaware. That, to me, is a catastrophic error.


It is quite possible that the Pakistani medical system, where they came from, does not have the routine scans and things that we do.

Also, is abortion permitted in Pakistan? That being the only option other than carrying to term.

Slarti

Slarti
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Re: This evening's news

#237844

Postby Slarti » July 19th, 2019, 5:08 pm

jfgw wrote:It would be interesting to have some more details about this case. I would not expect someone who is merely aggressive (rather than psychotic) to try to open the aircraft doors. There is more to this.


We'll probably get more when it comes to court.

At the moment all we have is a badly taken phone film of her screaming and thrashing while being restrained by large people.


Slarti


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