Large scale UK power cuts

[scotia]

However fluctuating Wind Generation is an entirely different problem - if we rely on it for a large fraction of our generation, then we will need a substantial long term backup for no-wind periods (e.g. a winter high sitting over the UK with little wind, and freezing conditions).

Isn't there also a problem that they shut down to avoid possible damage when there's too much wind? That may been the problem in the last couple of days.

Yes - above a certain speed there is a need to shut down wind turbines, though some are now being delivered which shut down gracefully rather than in a fall-off-the-cliff fashion. Its not clear what the problem was with Hornsea, but it seems that it may have been a problem with the transmission system, rather than the actual turbines - but published details are currently vague.
In operating the Grid with a large fraction of wind turbines, close attention is paid to present and predicted wind velocities, and if excessive speed seems likely, then steps would be taken to start up other generation before the wind generators failed. So the "surprise" failure of Hornsea is likely to have been for an unexpected reason, rather than just an increase in wind velocity.

[csearle]

All very interesting on a system level. Like most things there is surely a certain statistical chance that any one plant will fail, so from a system perspective either the (smaller) risk of multiple plant failing is accepted or, if the consequences are unacceptable, then the system needs changing.

If every plant had its own backup then this would be a redundancy of 1 to 1, which sounds like a bit of an expensive luxury to me, given the chances of multiple failures aren't huge I imagine.

I wouldn't be surprised if they conclude here that any two suppliers should be able to fail without significant outage and start upgrading our system accordingly.

We then just have to wait for the outcry when the inevitable (but even less likely) triple failure occurs.

Chris

[gryffron]

Short term backup was traditionally provided by having Spinning Spare...

Of course, this used to be a routine everyday issue when we only had 2 or 3 TV channels, and everyone in the country took their tea breaks at the same time. Nowadays, with dozens of channels & on-demand TV, I suspect power demand is much more stable, and the problem occurs much less frequently. Hence much less need for this kind of short term spare capacity. Until something breaks! But greatly reduced need is going to make the suppliers much less keen to pay for it.

Gryff

[Itsallaguess]

Interesting developments in the super-market sector -

Hundreds of Asda supermarket stores will help power the UK’s electricity system this winter by using their fridges as a virtual battery pack for the energy grid.

Britain’s third-largest supermarket chain has signed up 300 stores and 18 distribution depots to schemes which can earn the grocery giant extra revenue while helping to balance the electricity grid.

Under the long-term deal with National Grid the supermarket’s nationwide networks of freezer aisles and storage fridges will make up a 13-megawatt power source – enough energy to power about 8,500 homes.

Asda has also signed up to a trial which could mean its fridges are called on at only 10 minutes’ notice to act as a safety net if there is an unexpected power station outage.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... his-winter

Dubious reporting, however......surely there are no 'virtual battery packs' involved at all here, and it's simply managed and agreed load-shedding?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[scotia]

Dubious reporting, however......surely there are no 'virtual battery packs' involved at all here, and it's simply managed and agreed load-shedding?

yes - that's certainly what it looks like. A further quote from the article states
Peter Smith, Asda’s energy manager, said the deals were a “no-brainer” for the supermarket, which can easily cut the electricity to its fridges and air conditioning when needed while keeping the temperature of its stores stable.
I have no idea why the reporter thinks it is a "virtual battery". Perhaps I'm being unkind, but Patrick Moore's statement "they don't know the difference between an asteroid and an adenoid" comes to mind.

[88V8]

I suspect the power cuts were partly the EU's fault.

But before I get onto that, In the good old days rail signals were mechanical, no electric needed, and diesels and steam don't need electric either. So this problem is self-inflicted.

But back to the EU.
As has been said, the CEGB ran with plenty of reserve. Hot reserve that could be brought online quickly, and spinning reserve that could be switched in immediately. That costs, and post-privatisation it was allowed to decline.

In 2014, the Govt recognising the inherent dodginess of 'green' energy, initiated a scheme to incentivise greater resilience in the system, and this was approved by the EU Commission although why we have to ask them for approval of our domestic arrangements is another matter.
https://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-865_en.htm

Then in 2018 the European Court ruled that the scheme amounted to illegal state aid, and must be terminated.
https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpre ... -auctions/
So our govt instead of telling them where to go, cravenly did as instructed.

Post 31 October, I expect a suitable arrangement to be reinstated.

Funny that the pro-Remain BBC hasn't been publicising this aspect :}

V8

PS In the interests of balance, I must observe that the scheme was intended to provide winter capacity, so I cannot be sure that it would have helped during August. But never mind. Mustn't waste an opportunity to bash the interfering EU.

[scotia]

I suspect the power cuts were partly the EU's fault.

But before I get onto that, In the good old days rail signals were mechanical, no electric needed, and diesels and steam don't need electric either. So this problem is self-inflicted.

But back to the EU.
As has been said, the CEGB ran with plenty of reserve. Hot reserve that could be brought online quickly, and spinning reserve that could be switched in immediately. That costs, and post-privatisation it was allowed to decline.
In 2014, the Govt recognising the inherent dodginess of 'green' energy, initiated a scheme to incentivise greater resilience in the system, and this was approved by the EU Commission although why we have to ask them for approval of our domestic arrangements is another matter.
https://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-865_en.htm
Then in 2018 the European Court ruled that the scheme amounted to illegal state aid, and must be terminated.
https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpre ... -auctions/
So our govt instead of telling them where to go, cravenly did as instructed.
Post 31 October, I expect a suitable arrangement to be reinstated.
Funny that the pro-Remain BBC hasn't been publicising this aspect :}
V8
PS In the interests of balance, I must observe that the scheme was intended to provide winter capacity, so I cannot be sure that it would have helped during August. But never mind. Mustn't waste an opportunity to bash the interfering EU.

The Electricity Supply in the UK was privatised by the Thatcher Government. As such it has to stand on its own two feet and not expect Government subsidies - so allowing fair competition across the EU. And the only affect of the judgement is "The lights are not going to go out. We certainly have enough power stations. But the consequence is the market price might go up.” It has nothing to do with power cuts.
Could I suggest you return to Polite Discussions.

[sunnyjoe]

But director of operations Duncan Burt told the BBC that its systems "worked well" after the "incredibly rare event" of two power stations disconnecting.

Is it that rare though, for the future? Shutting down the coal fired power stations has reduced the amount of space capacity. There's gas and wind, but wind power will shut down if there's too much wind or no wind at all. That's apparently what happened yesterday, and a gas powered one failed as well.

The last time load was shed following the trip of two power stations was in 2008.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... at_Britain)#May_2008_incident
The G59 issues which exacerbated the above incident have been largely (but not completely) dealt with.

There is no definitive information yet on the reasons why Little Barford CCGT power station and Hornsea 1 offshore wind farm tripped. It is premature to say that too much or too little wind affected Hornsea 1

[dspp]

England and Wales blackout on 9 Aug 2019
Selected indicators
JOHN KEMP
REUTERS
12 August 2019
= here : https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/c ... OUT%20.pdf

amazingly so far National Grid have yet to issue a press release

http://media.nationalgrid.com/press-releases/

[XFool]

I suspect the power cuts were partly the EU's fault.

But before I get onto that, In the good old days rail signals were mechanical, no electric needed, and diesels and steam don't need electric either. So this problem is self-inflicted.

Nah, forget the EU! Things have been going downhill ever since they repealed the Corn Laws.

[Urbandreamer]

But director of operations Duncan Burt told the BBC that its systems "worked well" after the "incredibly rare event" of two power stations disconnecting.

Is it that rare though, for the future? Shutting down the coal fired power stations has reduced the amount of space capacity. There's gas and wind, but wind power will shut down if there's too much wind or no wind at all. That's apparently what happened yesterday, and a gas powered one failed as well.

The last time load was shed following the trip of two power stations was in 2008.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... at_Britain)#May_2008_incident
The G59 issues which exacerbated the above incident have been largely (but not completely) dealt with.

There is no definitive information yet on the reasons why Little Barford CCGT power station and Hornsea 1 offshore wind farm tripped. It is premature to say that too much or too little wind affected Hornsea 1

I doubt that Alaric deliberatly got the order wrong, however acording to this link Hornsea windfarm went down 2 minuits after Little Barford and other windfarms in the area kept producing.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... land-wales
That said, this is according to "Prof Tim Green, the co-director of the Energy Futures Laboratory, at Imperial College London" and not a spokesman for NG or either generator.

As Sunnyjoe points out, we really should wait for the report. However were I to speculate (as I already did), then the timeing would sugest to me that the second plant going off line would be due to an increase in demand beyond the caipability of the transmission system that connects that plant.

[sunnyjoe]

England and Wales blackout on 9 Aug 2019
Selected indicators
JOHN KEMP
REUTERS
12 August 2019
= here : https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/c ... OUT%20.pdf

amazingly so far National Grid have yet to issue a press release

http://media.nationalgrid.com/press-releases/

It is odd that the parent company has nothing to say. It looks like they are leaving it to their Electricity System Operator division which seems to favour twitter
https://www.nationalgrideso.com/media

[jfgw]

I suspect the power cuts were partly the EU's fault...

Nah, forget the EU! Things have been going downhill ever since they repealed the Corn Laws.

I think that that is a very good point. We never had power cuts in the mid-1800s. It is only after the corn laws were repealed that we have had these problems.

A more recent problem is the EU telling us that we have to let push-button toilets into the country. The high volumes of water leaking through these abominations put huge demands on electrically-powered water and sewage pumps and treatment facilities.

Julian F. G. W.

[sunnyjoe]

I suspect the power cuts were partly the EU's fault.

But before I get onto that, In the good old days rail signals were mechanical, no electric needed, and diesels and steam don't need electric either. So this problem is self-inflicted.

Nah, forget the EU! Things have been going downhill ever since they repealed the Corn Laws.

Electricity has been essential to railway signalling since 1872
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_circuit

[jackdaww]

i wonder how many big gas turbine engines ( say about airbus a320 size ) would be needed to produce the megawatts of an average coal/gas power station.

presumably these can be up and running pretty quickly .

[JohnB]

Traditional turbines have lots of energy contained in the rotors, so you get some leeway as they spin down (in this case frequency dropped from 50 to 48.914 before they started shedding). I wonder if renewables have similar resilience, in the wind turbine rotors at least.

[dspp]

England and Wales blackout on 9 Aug 2019
Selected indicators
JOHN KEMP
REUTERS
12 August 2019
= here : https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/c ... OUT%20.pdf

amazingly so far National Grid have yet to issue a press release

http://media.nationalgrid.com/press-releases/

It is odd that the parent company has nothing to say. It looks like they are leaving it to their Electricity System Operator division which seems to favour twitter
https://www.nationalgrideso.com/media

Thank you SunnyJoe.

The folks I chat to think stuff was happening all day, well before Little Barford went offline. Even when some of Hornsea went off the system should have been able to cope as the infeed loss provision is now supposed to cater for 1.8GW, up from the old 1.3GW provision. This provision is set by the size of Hinckley C, which is of course bigger than Sizewell B (*). Since the combination of Little Barford and the bits of Hornsea that dropped off are less than 1.8GW they are all looking carefully at their system logs. The report should make interesting reading in due course. You can already hear some very carefully worded sentences in the various interviews etc.

regards, dspp

(* for folk interested in this read #181404 Postby dspp » November 19th, 2018, 2:36 pm at viewtopic.php?p=181404#p181404 )

[gryffron]

Electricity has been essential to railway signalling since 1872
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_circuit

Track circuits may have been invented in 1872, but they certainly weren't "essential", and didn't become commonplace until the use of wide area powerboxes in the 1960's.
Electric block instruments and telegraph became widespread from c1870's, but were normally powered by accumulator batteries, so wouldn't have been worried about power cuts.

Mind you, if you think your train ticket is expensive now, imagine what it would cost if there were still a 24-hour manned manual signalbox every couple of miles.

Gryff

[dspp]

Traditional turbines have lots of energy contained in the rotors, so you get some leeway as they spin down (in this case frequency dropped from 50 to 48.914 before they started shedding). I wonder if renewables have similar resilience, in the wind turbine rotors at least.

Yes they can, but not necessarily.

If you think about the inertia in a traditional steam turbine there is a direct mechanical coupling all the way through to the electrical generator. In a typical wind turbine the actual mechanical inertia can be as great (or greater) but the 'coupling' is ordinarily a lot less stiff due to the arrangement of the electrical chunks. There are a number of different layouts so one cannot make sweeping generalisation statements, hence my caution. (In the future the large wind farms (and solar farms) are supposed to include something equivalent to the system response of a conventional plant as part of the design standard, but I don't know if this is integrated into Hornsea).

However (see my previous post) the system was in general expected to cope with what happened, and the system operator ought to be able to respond without load shedding. If you think about it National Grid does not own the generators, and any individual generator is perfectly entitled to switch a power station off with no notice (e.g. for a site safety problem) and the grid operator is supposed to keep the grid operating throughout. So quite why it didn't is being investigated. National Grid is supposed to be able to cope with the 1.8GW infeed loss in this way.

regards, dspp

[sunnyjoe]

The folks I chat to think stuff was happening all day, well before Little Barford went offline. Even when some of Hornsea went off the system should have been able to cope as the infeed loss provision is now supposed to cater for 1.8GW, up from the old 1.3GW provision. This provision is set by the size of Hinckley C, which is of course bigger than Sizewell B (*). Since the combination of Little Barford and the bits of Hornsea that dropped off are less than 1.8GW they are all looking carefully at their system logs. The report should make interesting reading in due course. You can already hear some very carefully worded sentences in the various interviews etc.

regards, dspp

Hinckley C isn't in operation yet, so NG ESO is not yet obliged to secure the system from loss of 1.8GW. The largest loss of infeed which GB could presently face is Sizewell B (1.32GW reactor split across 2x 660MW generators) or BritNed interconnector (1.2GW). Hornsea 1 will be 1.2GW eventually but it is still under construction and not yet up to full power as shown by your link which also shows that approx 1.5MW generation was lost. I think NG ESO will be able to show that this was not a credible scenario that they needed to secure against.

Size of existing generators and interconnectors
https://www.nationalgrideso.com/connect ... d-guidance
See TEC Register (generators) and Interonnctor Register

Chapter and verse of NG ESO system security standard
https://www.nationalgrideso.com/codes/s ... -standards