The Lemon Fool

Just had a second 50th Birthday/Wedding Celebration in Crimea with my extended Russian family.

They haven’t got a pot to piss in but gave me U$100 for my birthday and U$500 to me and the Mrs for our wedding.

Now I know that the only possible way that they could afford to do that is by saving money that we’ve given them. But what an amazing gesture huh?

And yes obviously, we’ll be giving it back to them, one way or another, without causing offence.

HYD

I was a bucket swinger collecting money at a railway station after a 'national sporting event that utilsed horses'. Lets just say I noted that the lower down the social scale - the more was contributed.

The toffs conveniently looked away - or sorry old chap - unless you can do it with a card. Day 2 I took along a mock up card reader and guess what - excuse after excuse.

It is true the well off dont contribute to charities - unless it through a well publicised tax write off that I would be embarrassed to use.

As an aside I contribut £100 a month to local charities as after reading "War Games: The Story of Aid and War in Modern Times" or Why are the RNLI spending money on overseas projects while cutting 135 staff in the UK
I would never again support a national charity .

regards
Swiss

SwissPaul wrote:It is true the well off dont contribute to charities - unless it through a well publicised tax write off that I would be embarrassed to use.

Charities benefit from Gift Aided donations, don't ya know.

SwissPaul wrote:It is true the well off dont contribute to charities - unless it through a well publicised tax write off that I would be embarrassed to use.

I do not believe that is remotely true.

Firstly, if you are a basic rate taxpayer then you do not save any tax if you use Gift Aid. The benefit all goes to the charity, which claims the tax back.

Secondly your anecdote about wielding a bucket is just that - an anecdote. Well off people often have organised structures for giving, and certain causes they like to regularly support. So when I am asked by someone in the street with a bucket so support such-and-such a cause I usually and honestly declare that I have certain specific charities I support and that is it.

Likewise when I used to work and there were the endless fellow employees seeking sponsorship for doing silly things because "it's for a good cause, innit?" I always disliked that and the attempt to shame people into donating.

And who gives the most globally? The very wealthy. Gates and Buffett are donating most of their billions to the Gates Foundation. And there is a long history of philanthropy amongst the very successful e.g. Carnegie, Rockefeller and so on.

I have no idea of a 'national sporting event utilising horses' and in any case have my own usually medical charities that I give to. I seldom give to charities in the street.

Many many well off people give to charities privately and without fuss, so this sort of blanket condemnation is simply rubbish. I have seen it in action as treasurer of more than one local branch of national charities where I used to get these CAF cheques which meant that they had a charity fund set up. Mind you there were times when I would get £20 when I had a fairly good idea that £200 would not be missed but that is life.

Dod

many charities have CEO's and other board members taking outrageously big salaries and pension pots , for what is not a rocket science job , while those at the workface are volunteers .

many of these charities are vital causes that must be properly funded by the taxpayer.

charity giving in these cases is a voluntary tax .

i suspect the OP is correct in the headline assertion.

jackdaww wrote:many charities have CEO's and other board members taking outrageously big salaries and pension pots , for what is not a rocket science job , while those at the workface are volunteers .

many of these charities are vital causes that must be properly funded by the taxpayer.

charity giving in these cases is a voluntary tax .

i suspect the OP is correct in the headline assertion.

I think that at times we would be a lot better off with the old idea of low taxes and endowments for hospitals and the like. Not everything 'must be funded by the taxpayer'. Before we know it we will be living in Corbyn's communist utopia. Before anyone else says it, corporate governance has not been brilliant at some well known charities and some of these apparently highly paid CEOs seem to have a couple of blind eyes but that is another argument.

Many of the very large well endowed charities have been established through 19th or early 20th century philanthropy and have hugely contributed to the betterment of mankind.

Dod

I act as sidesman at our church at 8am Communion on a couple of Sundays each month. Most people are on planned giving, but one or two put cash in the bag.

The other week the bag was empty. I remarked to the Rector that "this week the bag was full of standing orders". It is often better to donate direct to the charity to make use of gift aid, than to put a note in the collection.

TJH

SwissPaul wrote:I was a bucket swinger collecting money at a railway station after a 'national sporting event that utilsed horses'. Lets just say I noted that the lower down the social scale - the more was contributed.

The toffs conveniently looked away - or sorry old chap - unless you can do it with a card. Day 2 I took along a mock up card reader and guess what - excuse after excuse.

It is true the well off dont contribute to charities - unless it through a well publicised tax write off that I would be embarrassed to use.

As an aside I contribut £100 a month to local charities as after reading "War Games: The Story of Aid and War in Modern Times" or Why are the RNLI spending money on overseas projects while cutting 135 staff in the UK
I would never again support a national charity .

regards
Swiss

It’s very easy to generalise in these situations.

If I’d been to an event like a horse race and was unexpectedly approached by a “bucket swinger” at a railway station I probably would not donate. Simply because I’m rather diffident in that kind of situation and don’t usually have any change and it seems unwise/pretentious to get my wallet out at a crowded station and proffer a £20 note.

When Mrs H and I were married (compared with our peers on Tyneside) we genuinely had little extra to give.

Thanks to luck, hard work, delayed gratification, an investing hobby, a diversified portfolio and our friend, compound interest, nearly 50 years later, I’m in the nice position to be what you might call a “toff”.

However, around twenty years ago, I thought it would be nice to give away a million pounds. A target like this makes investing really worthwhile when you have more than enough to live on. I recommend it to all successful investors. And it is nice to live long enough to exceed the target!

If you are a significant donor, you can choose your charities carefully. You can meet the Chief Executive and his/her team and you can monitor the benefit which significant gifts achieve. You can spread your giving to cover (for example) the desperately poor abroad and incredibly gifted (but poor) PhD researchers who are making amazing discoveries which will improve the health of future generations.

And in my situation, you’d be daft not to use Gift Aid as it is our Government’s Initiative to encourage donors. One could argue that it is more moral to do this than to use Tax Avoidance schemes to benefit your own personal circumstances! (But for the avoidance of doubt I’m a very happy ISA and SIPP user).

As a significant donor, I must admit that there are perks. You meet amazing people and get invited to fancy places. Being analytical these experiences are far more enjoyable for me than expensive holidays.

Final thought, I treat my charity donations like an investment portfolio. The wonderful thing about them is that their value, once given, can never go down. If the market crashes 30% tomorrow, my charity investment portfolio is untouched. And it pays (non-financial) dividends that are priceless.

I’ve not been horse racing, but if I ever meet you with your bucket, do forgive me if I pass with an embarrassed shrug.

regards

Howard

Lootman wrote:

SwissPaul wrote:It is true the well off dont contribute to charities - unless it through a well publicised tax write off that I would be embarrassed to use.

I do not believe that is remotely true.

Sometimes it's really hard to tell satire from an earnest whooshing sound.

I rarely give to street collectors, that doesn't mean I am ungenerous. I give to the charities of my choice after careful consideration with the amounts and at the times that suit me.

Well I ain't no toff but if I were too diffident to give in the street I sure as 'ell would be too diffident to meet those benefiting from my generosity. Over a life time I have no ideas how much I have given away. Certainly no where near one million sterling that's for sure, not yet anyway. I support medical charities nearest my heart and I would prefer that these were anonymous. Giving via Gift Aid however,means that that is not possible.

I will not ever give to animal charities, and my grandchildren will usually come first. These seem to be reasonable rules to use.

No knocking Howard because we are all different.

Dod

Dod101 wrote:I support medical charities nearest my heart

Lung medical charities?

I spent some time this morning standing outside a large Tesco collecting for the Samaritans and I was very touched by the generosity of so many people, of all types (I think its too easy to misjudge people by appearance).

MM

MaraMan wrote:I spent some time this morning standing outside a large Tesco collecting for the Samaritans and I was very touched by the generosity of so many people, of all types (I think its too easy to misjudge people by appearance).

MM

I enjoy buying some of my clothes at our local Tesco - their cotton shirts and trousers can be very good value. (So may not have looked that smart!) And, as a previous volunteer for the Samaritans, they provided a very caring service. I would almost certainly have stopped and contributed!

regards

Howard

I like to give when I can and hope that it does go to a good cause and particularly with furniture, clothing, shoes etc and trust that it can make a difference to those in need. Always given over the years to the Salvation Army. Its about that time of year again, but nearly 60 years ago now I remember dressing Teddy up, sitting in a corner somewhere near Leicester Square or Tottenham Ct Rd, Teddy and I looked like we had been scorched(can't believe I did this now) and shouting out "penny for the guy". Think i did ok, as always had more than enough for Nov 5th and was quite amazed that people were so generous. Anyone remember Lyons Corner House, top end of Oxford St, Marble Arch end. Can't remember where I brought the Rockets but it was always a treat to go there for tea and milkshakes after Selfridges and this was on my own! Still have Teddy, just not collecting with him anymore.

I've heard tell that Warren Buffett has given the odd buck to charity.

Bill & Melinda Gates too. George Soros. Azim Premji. Sulaiman bin Abdul Aziz Al Rajhi.

AiY

Thanks for your responses:

Charities benefit from Gift Aided donations, don't ya know. Yes I know that - unfortunately people coming out of events dont necessariy have the paper work, the time or even the inclination to compete such paperwork.

I've heard tell that Warren Buffett has given the odd buck to charity. Bill & Melinda Gates too. George Soros. Azim Premji. Sulaiman bin Abdul Aziz Al Rajhi. Quite rightly so, but are they the exception?

Howard by all means pass with a shrug as it confirms my supposition.

Lootman you state And who gives the most globally the very wealthy. Gates and Buffett. do you have figures to back it up - or like me is your evidence anecdotal?
You also state "Well off people often have organised structures for giving". Less well off dont have these structures and as a percenatage of income well I would propose that they could least afford it.
Thanks Swiss

SwissPaul wrote:Lootman you state And who gives the most globally the very wealthy. Gates and Buffett. do you have figures to back it up - or like me is your evidence anecdotal? You also state "Well off people often have organised structures for giving". Less well off dont have these structures and as a percenatage of income well I would propose that they could least afford it.

If it is data you want then the attachment has more data than you can shake a stick at. It's an American study and it does suggest that numbers of Canada and Europe are less generous, perhaps because those locations apply a higher rate of tax on the wealthy.

The article states that the factor that most closely correlates to generous giving is religious faith. So Utah is the most generous State. It's predominantly Mormon and that faith practices a 10% tithe on income. I'm not sure if that is counted as charitable giving.

I could not see in the article where the very wealthy contribute more than 50%, if that is what you question. It gets close here:

"People with means, as you might expect, are substantial givers. Middle-class Americans donate a little less. But the lower-income population surprises by giving more than the middle—and in some measures even more than the top. (As a percentage of available income, that is. In absolute dollars, those in higher income groups give much, much more money.)"

Then it goes on to say this:

"High-income households provide an outsized share of all philanthropic giving. Those in the top 1 percent of the income distribution (any family making $394,000 or more in 2015) provide about a third of all charitable dollars given in the U.S. When it comes to bequests, the rich are even more important: the wealthiest 1.4 percent of Americans are responsible for 86 percent of the charitable donations made at death, according to one study."

Warren Buffett alone has contributed $46 billion so far and plans to donate most of the rest of his fortune as well. It will take a lot of factory workers and office clerks to match that.

Anyway for what it is worth:

https://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/ ... /who-gives

It may be pertinent to point out that charitable donations in the UK only raise the boundary between the basic rate of tax and the higher rate if Gift Aid is claimed. In the USA I believe that the donation takes that amount of the donor's personal income out of the scope of income tax, always provided that the appropriate paperwork is completed.

TJH