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We surely are not alone?

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nimnarb
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We surely are not alone?

#256863

Postby nimnarb » October 9th, 2019, 10:45 pm

Fabulous video of our Universe and just how utterly insignificant we really are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoW8Tf7hTGA

nimnarb
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Re: We surely are not alone?

#256867

Postby nimnarb » October 9th, 2019, 11:31 pm

Oh, where can I order one of these plus after this video check out the spot dogs!!! Seem to be having futuristic visions this evening...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHJTZ7k0BXU

Stonge
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Re: We surely are not alone?

#257107

Postby Stonge » October 11th, 2019, 11:24 am

nimnarb wrote:Fabulous video of our Universe and just how utterly insignificant we really are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoW8Tf7hTGA

I don't know how significant we are nor indeed how significant the universe is.

But we are the most complex objects in the universe and odds are that we are totally unique and alone. Whether that makes us precious within eternity is another argument.

We tiny fragile conscious entities look at the vast universe with wonder and wondering and it looks dumbly back at us with no thoughts at all.

Without the likes of us the universe is pointless.

redsturgeon
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Re: We surely are not alone?

#257116

Postby redsturgeon » October 11th, 2019, 11:43 am

Stonge wrote:
nimnarb wrote:Fabulous video of our Universe and just how utterly insignificant we really are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoW8Tf7hTGA

I don't know how significant we are nor indeed how significant the universe is.

But we are the most complex objects in the universe and odds are that we are totally unique and alone. Whether that makes us precious within eternity is another argument.

We tiny fragile conscious entities look at the vast universe with wonder and wondering and it looks dumbly back at us with no thoughts at all.

Without the likes of us the universe is pointless.


The way we look to a distant constellation
That's dying in a corner of the sky
These are the days of miracle and wonder
And don't cry, baby, don't cry
Don't cry


Paul Simon, The Boy in the Bubble. Graceland

UncleEbenezer
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Re: We surely are not alone?

#257121

Postby UncleEbenezer » October 11th, 2019, 11:58 am

Stonge wrote:
nimnarb wrote:Fabulous video of our Universe and just how utterly insignificant we really are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoW8Tf7hTGA

I don't know how significant we are nor indeed how significant the universe is.

But we are the most complex objects in the universe and odds are that we are totally unique and alone. Whether that makes us precious within eternity is another argument.

We tiny fragile conscious entities look at the vast universe with wonder and wondering and it looks dumbly back at us with no thoughts at all.

Without the likes of us the universe is pointless.

Brilliant illustration of how meaningless words become when you play with them outside their meaningful scope.

Any attempt to agree or disagree with what you say becomes a (pointless) argument about the meaning of words.

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Re: We surely are not alone?

#257214

Postby Stonge » October 11th, 2019, 5:47 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:Brilliant illustration of how meaningless words become when you play with them outside their meaningful scope.

Any attempt to agree or disagree with what you say becomes a (pointless) argument about the meaning of words.


Absolutely true, don't understand a word you said.

maximan
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Re: We surely are not alone?

#257236

Postby maximan » October 11th, 2019, 7:30 pm

Great post nimnarb.All the family have now looked at this especially the grandchildren and are utterly fascinated.

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Re: We surely are not alone?

#257242

Postby mc2fool » October 11th, 2019, 8:32 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
Stonge wrote:I don't know how significant we are nor indeed how significant the universe is.

But we are the most complex objects in the universe and odds are that we are totally unique and alone. Whether that makes us precious within eternity is another argument.

We tiny fragile conscious entities look at the vast universe with wonder and wondering and it looks dumbly back at us with no thoughts at all.

Without the likes of us the universe is pointless.

Brilliant illustration of how meaningless words become when you play with them outside their meaningful scope.

Any attempt to agree or disagree with what you say becomes a (pointless) argument about the meaning of words.

Uh? I don't really get where you're coming from with those comments. What don't you understand of Stonge's post?

It's all pretty straightforward to me, if a little flowery, revolving about a couple of well worn and (forever) ongoing debates on the uniqueness of the universe and uniqueness of advanced sentient life (us, although maybe not all :D), along with the old anthropic principle debate, of which Stonge seems to be a proponent of the strong variety. At least, that's the way I read it. :)

Assuming so, it's all perfectly debatable, and indeed over the years I've had those debates with academics of various disciplines, from zoologists to cosmologists to philosophers, most often in after-public-lecture wine receptions which, for me, is the perfect sort of occasion to have those debates, as I don't have a strong view on them and treat those topics as interesting but entertaining more than anything else, as there's no way of reaching a definitive outcome ... :D

Itsallaguess
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Re: We surely are not alone?

#257246

Postby Itsallaguess » October 11th, 2019, 8:50 pm

Stonge wrote:
Without the likes of us the universe is pointless.


Ah, there it is.

Man's great conceit....

Itsallaguess

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Re: We surely are not alone?

#257256

Postby Leothebear » October 11th, 2019, 10:02 pm

But we are the most complex objects in the universe and odds are that we are totally unique and alone. Whether that makes us precious within eternity is another argument.


UE - What a preposterous statement! Any cursory study into the numbers will indicate there are millions of planetary systems in our galaxy alone.
Even if you say only one in 10,000 has life that still leaves huge odds in favour of intelligent life. When considering the universe - multiply that number by a billion.
LTB

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Re: We surely are not alone?

#257267

Postby simsqu » October 11th, 2019, 11:26 pm

Leothebear wrote:
Even if you say only one in 10,000 has life that still leaves huge odds in favour of intelligent life. When considering the universe - multiply that number by a billion.
LTB


I think you are probably being a little conservative there Leo. Someone needs to post a link to the Drake Equation of course, and I am sure someone will.

The question is, if there are so many billions of civilisations around the Universe, then where are they?

For the answer, one only has to look at the original post in this thread: distance.

Either way, even if there was no life of any sort in the Universe, I doubt that the Universe would give a toss

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Re: We surely are not alone?

#257269

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » October 11th, 2019, 11:35 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
Stonge wrote:
Without the likes of us the universe is pointless.


Ah, there it is.

Man's great conceit....

Itsallaguess


Ooops :lol:

AiY

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Re: We surely are not alone?

#257270

Postby mc2fool » October 11th, 2019, 11:47 pm

Leothebear wrote:
But we are the most complex objects in the universe and odds are that we are totally unique and alone. Whether that makes us precious within eternity is another argument.

UE - What a preposterous statement! Any cursory study into the numbers will indicate there are millions of planetary systems in our galaxy alone.
Even if you say only one in 10,000 has life that still leaves huge odds in favour of intelligent life. When considering the universe - multiply that number by a billion.

It's actually not at all a preposterous statement, LTB, but a matter of serious academic debate. I used to think like you, that sheer weight of numbers must mean we are not alone, but having listened to quite a few scientists with the view above in the past few years, now I'm not so sure.

For one, perhaps you didn't see Brian Cox's Human Universe series a few years back.

"We are alone in the universe: Professor Brian Cox says alien life is all but impossible and humanity is 'unique'
:
'There is only one advanced technological civilisation in this galaxy and there has only ever been one - and that's us. We are unique.
" https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech ... nique.html

I went to a lecture at UCL a couple of years ago by one of their astronomy professors, and he laid out just all of the physical (non biological) events that had led the earth to be suitable for us to come about, after 4 billion years, and then assigned probabilities to each and applied those to the, as Sagan used to say, billions and billions, and also came to the conclusion that the odds were overwhelmingly that we are unique.

Unconnected to that I've seen a zoology prof. basically do the same thing with all the biological events that led to us, and come to the same conclusion.

Personally, while I find the debate interesting I don't have a strong view one way or the other, so I'm not going to make a stand on it. Only just to say that you shouldn't be so dismissive, as it is a point of serious scientific debate.

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Re: We surely are not alone?

#257272

Postby AsleepInYorkshire » October 11th, 2019, 11:48 pm

simsqu wrote:
Leothebear wrote:
Even if you say only one in 10,000 has life that still leaves huge odds in favour of intelligent life. When considering the universe - multiply that number by a billion.
LTB


I think you are probably being a little conservative there Leo. Someone needs to post a link to the Drake Equation of course, and I am sure someone will.

The question is, if there are so many billions of civilisations around the Universe, then where are they?

For the answer, one only has to look at the original post in this thread: distance.

Either way, even if there was no life of any sort in the Universe, I doubt that the Universe would give a toss

Hmm ... it turned up didn't it ... which has to count for a little something. I think distance isn't the only barrier. I'd like to suggest that time may also preclude? I'd also like to suggest we are alone. We are the only species on this planet to be able to look up to the stars and ask "are we alone".

And also another absolutely useless fact ... I think it's Beetlejuice (Betelgeuse) that the men in white are watching as they think it's on the cusp of blowing up? It being on the YouTube video link.

AiY

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Re: We surely are not alone?

#257280

Postby Itsallaguess » October 12th, 2019, 5:05 am

AsleepInYorkshire wrote:
I think distance isn't the only barrier. I'd like to suggest that time may also preclude?


This is one of the major points often missed when debating this subject.

Think about it - two caves just feet apart, but if the residents of one came and went a billion years ago, and the next-door neighbours looked in at some later point in time, they'd come to the conclusion they were the only cave-dwellers to ever live on their cave-street...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: We surely are not alone?

#257287

Postby Golam » October 12th, 2019, 7:48 am

Suggest, for those that are particularly interested in this topic, that the contemplation of infinity with respect to space and time is profoundly important. Follow up with perusal of the theory of multiverses.

Golam ( a HYPer )

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Re: We surely are not alone?

#257291

Postby johnhemming » October 12th, 2019, 8:12 am

nimnarb wrote:Oh, where can I order one of these plus after this video check out the spot dogs!!! Seem to be having futuristic visions this evening...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHJTZ7k0BXU

The graphics are nicely done.

"A megawatt of power lifts you up."

I suppose it is only about 6 times the power of the engine in a Land Rover discovery.

Personally I would think powered hot air balloons are probably more practical, its that hydrogen or helium really.

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Re: We surely are not alone?

#257294

Postby scrumpyjack » October 12th, 2019, 8:24 am

Yes Itsallaguess, Personkind can be extraordinarily conceited and only see things from an anthropomorphic viewpoint. As Xenophanes said, If horses had gods they’d be horses (sorry to bring religion into it!)

It’s also a conceit that any intelligent life must be like us and that ‘life’ can only exist on a planet like earth.

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Re: We surely are not alone?

#257298

Postby Arborbridge » October 12th, 2019, 8:36 am

simsqu wrote:
The question is, if there are so many billions of civilisations around the Universe, then where are they?

For the answer, one only has to look at the original post in this thread: distance.

Either way, even if there was no life of any sort in the Universe, I doubt that the Universe would give a toss


I'd add to distance: time.

When you consider how our various civilisations have risen and passed in a cosmological "moment" it doesn't feel surprising to me that we aren't surrounded by signs of life elsewhere. Getting the distances small enough for observation during the rare periods of overlap - pretty minimal chance.

Anyhow, the distance is a pretty good way of making sure personkind doesn't wreck too many other planets as we are this one.

Arb.

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Re: We surely are not alone?

#257299

Postby simsqu » October 12th, 2019, 8:38 am

AsleepInYorkshire wrote: I think distance isn't the only barrier.
And also another absolutely useless fact ... I think it's Beetlejuice (Betelgeuse) that the men in white are watching as they think it's on the cusp of blowing up? It being on the YouTube video link.

AiY


Yes good point time is very important. There is a lot of space and time and relatively few chances for species to meet.

I would also suggest that even if we did meet another non-Earthbound species, would we know we had? They might be so different from us that we wouldn't recognise them as an alien species.

And yes Betelguese is an accident waiting to happen at any moment, by which I mean, any time in the next million years or so. Again I am sure some bright spark will tell us the exact timeframe, but it's soon, Universally speaking.


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