The Lemon Fool

I’m always amazed at what people think their second hand goods are worth. Sometimes that amazement is because they are underpriced, but normally it’s because they are overpriced.

I’m in the market for a second hand full size keyboard, which goes for £300 new in the shops.

Now, on auction websites, if that same keyboard is 12-24months old, and in perfect condition, they want £250 for it.

You get where I’m going with this. If I’d bought something, anything, for £300 two years ago, and was now looking to sell it? I’d expect at least a 40% discount.

I’m interested to hear what sort of discount you would expect after two years, whether you’re a buyer or a seller?

HYD

Stating the bleedin' obvious but depends on what it is.
Tech stuff more than a year old I'd look for minimum 50% discount
Some things hold their value better - good guitars, watches, top end hi-fi etc

Yes I agree with you.....40% + off the price of a new one is somewhere near.
I buy and sell second hand items (not keyboards) and see it all the time. People ask way to much for their items.
If they are significantly overpriced i just pass them by, if they are somewhere near to the correct value i will always make an offer.

What people often don't consider is that many items are seasonal eg don't try selling heaters in the summer or air conditioning, fans or lawnmowers in winter. But youd be amazed at the number of people who do try to sell these items at the wrong time of the year and still expect to get a top price for them.

They made too many ZX81s (still got mine somewhere) - although brand new in box may be worth a few quid. Now, an early Apple computer may be worth a fair bit...
I'm a guitarist - people will pay (tens of) thousands for early Gibsons/Fenders etc- way more than they cost, even allowing for inflation.
Likewise effects pedals - you can get some brilliant pedals for very little money these days, but enthusiasts will pay big money for 'classic' 70s/80s pedals like the MXR Phase90 and Ibanzex Tube Screamer, just to get that sound
Similarly classic amps (Vox AC30) and even Roland drum machines, old analog synths and whatever

Howyoudoin wrote:I’m always amazed at what people think their second hand goods are worth. Sometimes that amazement is because they are underpriced, but normally it’s because they are overpriced.

I’m in the market for a second hand full size keyboard, which goes for £300 new in the shops.

Now, on auction websites, if that same keyboard is 12-24months old, and in perfect condition, they want £250 for it.

You get where I’m going with this. If I’d bought something, anything, for £300 two years ago, and was now looking to sell it? I’d expect at least a 40% discount.

I’m interested to hear what sort of discount you would expect after two years, whether you’re a buyer or a seller?

HYD

My good lady reckons she could get £50 for me. And that's not per hour

A new car will loose 60% of it's value in the first three years. Yet a new house will probably not loose any value at all. Averages of course. On the item you're talking about I'd expect it to be 50-60% less than it's value new. Bearing in mind 20% of the new value is VAT. I base my speculative estimate on the need to buy basis. If I need to buy something and the second hand market is over-priced I'll find a way to buy it new.

My suggestion BTITB. [Acronym for Bid them lower ]

You have nothing to lose, except your time.

AiY

AleisterCrowley wrote:They made too many ZX81s (still got mine somewhere) - although brand new in box may be worth a few quid. Now, an early Apple computer may be worth a fair bit...
I'm a guitarist - people will pay (tens of) thousands for early Gibsons/Fenders etc- way more than they cost, even allowing for inflation.
Likewise effects pedals - you can get some brilliant pedals for very little money these days, but enthusiasts will pay big money for 'classic' 70s/80s pedals like the MXR Phase90 and Ibanzex Tube Screamer, just to get that sound
Similarly classic amps (Vox AC30) and even Roland drum machines, old analog synths and whatever

Indeed!

Music gear is quite different from most consumer electrical goods though.

There's been a well established second-hand market forever, most of the interesting stuff is made in relatively low quantities and it does not go out of date (e.g. that TS connector on a guitar cable dates from 1877)

It does however die, or get drowned in beer, or get lost at gigs, or run over by a bus (my first cry-baby developed a bit of a funny shape that way - still worked tho); so most things are available in every decreasing volumes, which does help things retain value.

And that is before you get in to the snake oil and halo effects
- once something is known to be used on a hit, or is seen in some professional's collection, (or now-a-days if it features in a youtube video) you can expect a good jump in price
- and the relic look in fashion for guitars now means that crap condition doesn't really affect the price as it used to

Howyoudoin wrote:You get where I’m going with this. If I’d bought something, anything, for £300 two years ago, and was now looking to sell it? I’d expect at least a 40% discount.

If I were buying a bit of kit that was still being made I'd expect secondhand prices to be 20-40% lower (based on condition) than what I would need to pay for a new one.

What a lot of people selling don't realise (or notice) is that the "new" price can vary wildly and might be a lot lower than they paid
- so if there is something specific you want check reverb, ebay, amazon and music retailers' websites
- you might well be able to put in an acceptable offer if you can back it up

- sd

I understand where HYD is coming from here.
A bog-standard run-of-the-mill keyboard that is still in production should be significantly cheaper 2nd hand.

An out-of-production 'classic' could go for anything depending on the circumstances.

In my playing days I bought a 2nd hand Yamaha DX7 with a box full of RAM and ROM cartridges for £200 all-in.
Years and years later I sold it on eBay for... yes £200. However, I sold all the cartridges separately and individually and got another £200 for them.

My Roland Juno 60 bought 2nd hand for £200 sold for £350. This was to a rock 'star' who was making a TV programme about the 80s so perhaps money wasn't so important. As I said, it all depends on the circumstances!

So, not much hope for making the asking price for my Strad then!

An uncle of mine (now deceased) had a comprehensive collection of every recorded opera. Mostly unplayed and still with the film covering the LP sleeve. Probably a unique collection.

When the time came to sell them, they were virtually worthless. Nobody wanted them. Had they been early jazz, blues or almost any other genre they would have been of some value. I think they finally went for about 50p per album.

Gaggsy wrote:I understand where HYD is coming from here.
...

An out-of-production 'classic' could go for anything depending on the circumstances.

...

My Roland Juno 60 bought 2nd hand for £200 sold for £350. This was to a rock 'star' who was making a TV programme about the 80s so perhaps money wasn't so important. As I said, it all depends on the circumstances!

I work near Roland EU HQ- keep meaning to check their bins for discarded TR-808s

AleisterCrowley wrote:Now, an early Apple computer may be worth a fair bit...

A very fair bit - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45647449

Snorvey wrote:Depends on what it is and how much in demand it is. A few years ago I tried to sell a fairly new £700 flat screen tv (not a flat panel, an older style one with a big back on it). To my dismay, eBay sellers had them at thirty quid and they weren't selling at that. Off to the recycling centre it went.)

The truth of this came home to me recently when I was buying a new cooker. The place I went to was offering a free dishwasher if I spent £4,000 or more on a cooker. As it happened the cooker I wanted (or rather, my wife wanted) was £4,000 so a new dishwasher was delivered along with the cooker.

The problem was that we didn't need a new dishwasher as the old one works fine and, moreover, it's a different size and so would requires other alterations.

So I decided to sell it. It's brand new, has a full warranty and is still in its original packing materials. It retails at £1,400. So what to offer it for sale for? I started out with £1,000. No interest. Dropped it to £800. One bid.

Checking some auction sites I saw a few of the same model - all brand new - for sale. Evidently a lot of people took this deal and ended up with surplus dishwashers of the same type.

In the end my wife's boss had a dishwasher failure and he took it off my hands for £700, half price. And I delivered it for him.

Given that you can probably get one third back in tax by donating it to charity, I think that is the floor price. But you get a lot of depreciation on day one.

Lootman wrote:

Snorvey wrote:Depends on what it is and how much in demand it is. A few years ago I tried to sell a fairly new £700 flat screen tv (not a flat panel, an older style one with a big back on it). To my dismay, eBay sellers had them at thirty quid and they weren't selling at that. Off to the recycling centre it went.)

The truth of this came home to me recently when I was buying a new cooker. The place I went to was offering a free dishwasher if I spent £4,000 or more on a cooker. As it happened the cooker I wanted (or rather, my wife wanted) was £4,000 so a new dishwasher was delivered along with the cooker

£4,000 for a cooker?!

I’d want a new kitchen for that.




HYD

Howyoudoin wrote:

Lootman wrote:

Snorvey wrote:Depends on what it is and how much in demand it is. A few years ago I tried to sell a fairly new £700 flat screen tv (not a flat panel, an older style one with a big back on it). To my dismay, eBay sellers had them at thirty quid and they weren't selling at that. Off to the recycling centre it went.)

The truth of this came home to me recently when I was buying a new cooker. The place I went to was offering a free dishwasher if I spent £4,000 or more on a cooker. As it happened the cooker I wanted (or rather, my wife wanted) was £4,000 so a new dishwasher was delivered along with the cooker

£4,000 for a cooker?!

I’d want a new kitchen for that.

Especially one where they can afford to throw in a dishwasher. Must be some mark up.

Dod

Howyoudoin wrote:£4,000 for a cooker?!

I’d want a new kitchen for that.

What currency do you suppose the £ denotes there to be in a credible ballpark?

Post-2005 Turkish Lire looks the most plausible candidate I can think of. Puts the cooker firmly in more-money-than-sense territory but at least plausible, and the dishwasher price quoted becomes realistic.

Howyoudoin wrote:£4,000 for a cooker?!

I’d want a new kitchen for that.

I doubt that you'd get much change out of five grand for a high-end catering-level cooker. But then again, if I told you that replacing our boiler would cost the thick end of £10,000 by the time it was fitted, you'd probably be off to Specsavers to get your reading glasses checked. (It's a big cast-iron Aga Rayburn monster - people pay that sort of cash just for the drop-dead gorgeous looks.)

£1,400 for a dishwasher, though? Nobody really cares what a d/w looks like. And the most expensive domestic one I can find (Miele, $3,099, https://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmad ... VIK2O.html) is integrated (i.e. you bolt your own cabinet door onto it), so nobody is going to know it's there in any case.

Still, it does useful tricks. It has "precise measurement of particulate soiling and turbidity" , and if you tap the door twice, the door opens up by four inches to greet its master. Now that's got to be worth three thousand dollars, hasn't it?

BJ

A lot depends on what you are selling, but I have found more often it is how you sell it.

Auctions on eBay can be a little bit hit or miss, but I have found advertising a fixed price usually delivers good results.

I am not sure how many people are aware of the 'completed listings' filter in the left hand side, but it provides a good indication of the price range that previous items have sold for, rather just those currently listed.

I have used that to my advantage to sell some items quickly that I wanted rid of by pricing them slightly under the average, but also to hit the maximum price on some items. The latter took months to sell, but I didn't care as I just kept refreshing the listings on their £1 fee offer and ended up with double what I would have done for a quick sale and with confidence from the 'completed listings' filter that they would eventually sell.

Post & packing is an interesting one - make if free on cheap items increases sales, add it on as extra on expensive and nobody seems to care.

As for the expectation of the price of some second-hand items, there are some people that just do no research. Every year Nespresso seems to do an offer of buy a machine for £x and get the same value in coffee vouchers. If you buy several machines, take out the vouchers and advertise the machines for their purchase price on eBay (making no mention of any vouchers), it is astonishing the number of people who are prepared to buy AND are happy with their purchase (i.e. were not buying in the expectation of getting any vouchers). Meanwhile you have free coffee.

So I guess music gear is in a category of its own for holding value?

In 1988 i bought my first guitar pedal for £25(from Sound Control in Glasgow); it was a Rocktek Chorus (a cheap knock off of a BOSS CE-2 that looked a bit like an Arion pedal)
- if I wanted one now it looks like it would be £80 (https://reverb.com/item/10084913-rockte ... orus-pedal)
- that's beating inflation - and I've still got the box for mine

Pretty sure if I spent £4000 on a guitar I'd expect to get most of my money back if/when I sold it
- just need to convince the missus that i need something like: https://reverb.com/item/17166597-fender ... 4-sunburst


- sd

Gaggsy wrote:My Roland Juno 60 bought 2nd hand for £200 sold for £350. This was to a rock 'star' who was making a TV programme about the 80s so perhaps money wasn't so important. As I said, it all depends on the circumstances!

I sold my Roland Juno 106 for the same price I bought it brand new 20 years earlier.

Classic Roland gear is still available
https://www.pmtonline.co.uk/brands/rola ... d-boutique

and I'm quite tempted by this
https://www.gear4music.com/Keyboards-an ... esizer/PIB

Certain model trains can be more fruitful, ignoring the real top end stuff it is remarkable how the early Hornby Dublo two rail (maybe less so the three rail) and also Wrenn locos have held their value, albeit one does need to consider inflation, when adjusted some of the gains are really pretty lacklustre.

I have been acquiring a fair few over the last few years, not because I really expect large gains but more because they are things of beauty (especially if near mint) so can act as a small store of value and be interesting to look at. (At least until all those born in the 30s,40s, 50s and early 60s all die and then the market probably collapses)

I am less keen on early Triang and Triang/Hornby stuff though have picked up some non runners which can usually be repaired (have a decent parts bin); interesting way to spend one's evenings without resorting to the TV and very satisfying what a quick service and a clean can do.