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Beerpig's Snug No Politics Coronavirus Thread

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servodude
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Re: Beerpig's Snug No Politics Coronavirus Thread

#351168

Postby servodude » October 27th, 2020, 9:22 pm

langley59 wrote:
XFool wrote:UK coronavirus death toll passes 60,000, official figures show

The Guardian

Total of 61,116 comes as deaths in England and Wales continue to double every fortnight

Don't they just love it...

That's not the impression I got from reading it

sg31
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Re: Beerpig's Snug No Politics Coronavirus Thread

#351169

Postby sg31 » October 27th, 2020, 9:27 pm

This may be behind the NYT paywall although I had no trouble accessing it. The research paper link is given at the end just in case. This maybe whay is causing long covid.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/27/heal ... e=Homepage§ion=Health

Some survivors of Covid-19 carry worrying signs that their immune system has turned on the body, reminiscent of potentially debilitating diseases like lupus and rheumatoid arthritis, a new study has found.

At some point, the body’s defense system in these patients shifted into attacking itself, rather than the virus, the study suggests. The patients are producing molecules called “autoantibodies” that target genetic material from human cells, instead of from the virus.

This misguided immune response may exacerbate severe Covid-19. It may also explain why so-called “long haulers” have lingering problems months after their initial illness has resolved and the virus is gone from their bodies.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... .full-text

Mike4
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Re: Beerpig's Snug No Politics Coronavirus Thread

#351181

Postby Mike4 » October 27th, 2020, 10:31 pm

sg31 wrote:This may be behind the NYT paywall although I had no trouble accessing it. The research paper link is given at the end just in case. This maybe whay is causing long covid.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/27/heal ... e=Homepage§ion=Health

Some survivors of Covid-19 carry worrying signs that their immune system has turned on the body, reminiscent of potentially debilitating diseases like lupus and rheumatoid arthritis, a new study has found.

At some point, the body’s defense system in these patients shifted into attacking itself, rather than the virus, the study suggests. The patients are producing molecules called “autoantibodies” that target genetic material from human cells, instead of from the virus.

This misguided immune response may exacerbate severe Covid-19. It may also explain why so-called “long haulers” have lingering problems months after their initial illness has resolved and the virus is gone from their bodies.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101 ... .full-text


Also, there is gathering evidence that COVID makes you thick.

Or more specifically, damages your "cognitive function" according to Dr Adam Hampshire from Imperial College, London. Discussed on R4 "Today" at 2 hours 52 mins in.

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Re: Beerpig's Snug No Politics Coronavirus Thread

#351259

Postby redsturgeon » October 28th, 2020, 10:02 am

For those of you who think Covid is nothing to worry about, some food for thought.

Our friend, a consultant at our local hospital notes that after several months over the summer with no Covid patients they now had 15 as of yesterday.

One of those patients is the father of my daughter's best friend, a chap in his late 40s, not significant co-morbidities, not overweight. He came to us for a Covid test on Friday, feeling OK but had had a fever a couple of days before. We tested him, he was positive. He received his NHS PCR test the next day also positive.

He is now in intensive care at the hospital. Please join me in wishing him a speedy recovery. He is the father of seven children and runs a very successful business employing dozens of people. The mortality rate once admitted to ICU is about 30%!

I have a friend I used to play poker with, a chartered accountant, late 50s and overweight. He ended up on a ventilator for several weeks, he came out of hospital months ago and has not worked since. He is still breathless at the slightest exertion.

Please do not underestimate this disease, it can be brutal.

John

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Re: Beerpig's Snug No Politics Coronavirus Thread

#351271

Postby johnhemming » October 28th, 2020, 10:43 am

redsturgeon wrote:Please do not underestimate this disease, it can be brutal.

I do know people who have died as a result of the virus. However, that does not mean we should be unrealistic about the virus.

The virus is endemic in the UK
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endemic_(epidemiology)

It is also seasonal.

This season will probably be the worst season for this virus in the UK.

However, the biggest lesson is that people should ensure they take Vitamin D to strengthen their immune systems and also potentially zinc (for a similar reason)

In many ways the NHS should be trying to identify where people have a weak immune system and assist them in strengthening it.

redsturgeon
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Re: Beerpig's Snug No Politics Coronavirus Thread

#351274

Postby redsturgeon » October 28th, 2020, 10:53 am

johnhemming wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:Please do not underestimate this disease, it can be brutal.

I do know people who have died as a result of the virus. However, that does not mean we should be unrealistic about the virus.

The virus is endemic in the UK
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endemic_(epidemiology)

It is also seasonal.

This season will probably be the worst season for this virus in the UK.

However, the biggest lesson is that people should ensure they take Vitamin D to strengthen their immune systems and also potentially zinc (for a similar reason)

In many ways the NHS should be trying to identify where people have a weak immune system and assist them in strengthening it.



Both these two guys were described as "cast iron constitution" and "strong as an ox"

It is not just the old and weak who can get very sick and die.

I'd be interested in your thoughts of the method by which the NHS can "identify where people have a weak immune system and assist them in strengthening it".

With all due respect, that's a bit like saying the NHS should identify those who are susceptible to all diseases and help them avoid getting sick.
Hmmm, obesity, diet, smoking, alcohol, perhaps we should warn people, why hasn't anybody though of this!

You should be a politician...

John

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Re: Beerpig's Snug No Politics Coronavirus Thread

#351289

Postby langley59 » October 28th, 2020, 11:27 am

redsturgeon wrote:For those of you who think Covid is nothing to worry about, some food for thought.

I for one have never thought this and, as I have posted previously, consider myself to be at higher risk than average due to age and a lifetime of compromised breathing. However I do think that the reaction to it by the authorities has been disproportionate and has led to significant other health issues.

My best wishes to your two friends.

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Re: Beerpig's Snug No Politics Coronavirus Thread

#351294

Postby tjh290633 » October 28th, 2020, 11:42 am

redsturgeon wrote:Both these two guys were described as "cast iron constitution" and "strong as an ox"

They obviously got it from somewhere or someone. I wonder what precautions, if any, they were taking?

And do we know for sure that they had no unreported health conditions?

I fear that paranoia is the biggest enemy.

TJH

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Re: Beerpig's Snug No Politics Coronavirus Thread

#351295

Postby johnhemming » October 28th, 2020, 11:44 am

redsturgeon wrote:I'd be interested in your thoughts of the method by which the NHS can "identify where people have a weak immune system and assist them in strengthening it".

Obviously it is possible to check vitamin D levels as that is already done. Not, however, a systematically as may be advised. Someone can be physically strong and have a strong cardiovascular system, but a weak immune system.

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Re: Beerpig's Snug No Politics Coronavirus Thread

#351312

Postby redsturgeon » October 28th, 2020, 12:14 pm

tjh290633 wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:Both these two guys were described as "cast iron constitution" and "strong as an ox"

They obviously got it from somewhere or someone. I wonder what precautions, if any, they were taking?

And do we know for sure that they had no unreported health conditions?

I fear that paranoia is the biggest enemy.

TJH


Yes they clearly got it from somewhere, both were business owners and returned to work as soon as they could to put food on the table for their families and keep their staff employed.

They clearly were not taking enough precautions to avoid getting the disease. That is a very salient point but I remember in recent weeks the country being encouraged to both go back to work if at all possible and to eat out to help out. Were either of these two messages encouraging us to take every precaution we could to avoid catch Covid?

Did they have underlying health conditions? I can't be sure but why do we keep needing to push this idea that if you are healthy then you will be OK? Is that really true? That line reminds me of the people who get cancer when they were as fit as a fiddle, vegans, who never smoked or drank. Seems that it may be comforting to think of disease as only happening to people who somehow deserve it.

Paranoia is not usually useful, but to suggest that it is a bigger problem than the disease that has killed 45,000 and counting in this country, seems to be overstating the case. If someone is paranoid enough to socially distance, wash their hands frequently and wear a mask when mixing with others then it may actually be of benefit to them.

BTW I am not suggesting that I am that person. I travelled abroad in August and ate out in restaurants when the numbers were low (usually outside). I only wear a mask wear it is mandated and have met friends in pub gardens for drinks. Now the numbers are rising I am again limiting social contacts and if we go into lockdown I will follow guidelines.

Keep safe everyone.

John

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Re: Beerpig's Snug No Politics Coronavirus Thread

#351318

Postby NeilW » October 28th, 2020, 12:36 pm

redsturgeon wrote:Paranoia is not usually useful, but to suggest that it is a bigger problem than the disease that has killed 45,000 and counting in this country, seems to be overstating the case.


Does it? Over 10,000 people per week die in the UK. That's normal.

The current rate of death is about normal for the time of year.

It was about twice normal in April. And it has declined to about 20% over normal since then. With each week that passes the excess death ratio shrinks.

The fear is that April will return, and that's now bordering on paranoia.

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Re: Beerpig's Snug No Politics Coronavirus Thread

#351322

Postby redsturgeon » October 28th, 2020, 12:42 pm

NeilW wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:Paranoia is not usually useful, but to suggest that it is a bigger problem than the disease that has killed 45,000 and counting in this country, seems to be overstating the case.


Does it? Over 10,000 people per week die in the UK. That's normal.

The current rate of death is about normal for the time of year.

It was about twice normal in April. And it has declined to about 20% over normal since then. With each week that passes the excess death ratio shrinks.

The fear is that April will return, and that's now bordering on paranoia.


Tell that to the relatives of the more than 1000 people registered as dying from Covid in the past two weeks. Or the relatives of the 367 Covid dead reported on Oct 27th.

John

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Re: Beerpig's Snug No Politics Coronavirus Thread

#351324

Postby redsturgeon » October 28th, 2020, 12:51 pm

I am genuinely trying to understand in what way "being paranoid" is affecting the pandemic response in a negative way. Could someone please explain that to me.

From what I have seen over the past few months it is complacency rather than paranoia that has brought us to where we find ourselves now.

John

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Re: Beerpig's Snug No Politics Coronavirus Thread

#351328

Postby johnhemming » October 28th, 2020, 12:58 pm

redsturgeon wrote:I am genuinely trying to understand in what way "being paranoid" is affecting the pandemic response in a negative way. Could someone please explain that to me.

From what I have seen over the past few months it is complacency rather than paranoia that has brought us to where we find ourselves now.


Although I don't think being abusive assists in discussing issues more generally I do think there is good evidence that the actions of the lockdown prevented the disease spreading more widely during the summer which is resulting in more people dying from the disease at the moment.

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Re: Beerpig's Snug No Politics Coronavirus Thread

#351338

Postby XFool » October 28th, 2020, 1:32 pm

NeilW wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:Paranoia is not usually useful, but to suggest that it is a bigger problem than the disease that has killed 45,000 and counting in this country, seems to be overstating the case.

Does it? Over 10,000 people per week die in the UK. That's normal.

The current rate of death is about normal for the time of year.

It was about twice normal in April. And it has declined to about 20% over normal since then. With each week that passes the excess death ratio shrinks.

The fear is that April will return, and that's now bordering on paranoia.

If I am going out, and the weather forecast is predicting rain, is taking an umbrella with me a sign of paranoia?

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Re: Beerpig's Snug No Politics Coronavirus Thread

#351346

Postby NeilW » October 28th, 2020, 2:00 pm

redsturgeon wrote:Tell that to the relatives of the more than 1000 people registered as dying from Covid in the past two weeks. Or the relatives of the 367 Covid dead reported on Oct 27th.

John


And what about the other 21,000 people who have died in that time? Are they not that important any more?

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Re: Beerpig's Snug No Politics Coronavirus Thread

#351347

Postby NeilW » October 28th, 2020, 2:01 pm

XFool wrote:If I am going out, and the weather forecast is predicting rain, is taking an umbrella with me a sign of paranoia?


It won't be much use will it in the Hurricane that's bound to happen.

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Re: Beerpig's Snug No Politics Coronavirus Thread

#351348

Postby XFool » October 28th, 2020, 2:06 pm

NeilW wrote:
XFool wrote:If I am going out, and the weather forecast is predicting rain, is taking an umbrella with me a sign of paranoia?

It won't be much use will it in the Hurricane that's bound to happen.

Now who is being paranoid? :lol:

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Re: Beerpig's Snug No Politics Coronavirus Thread

#351357

Postby redsturgeon » October 28th, 2020, 2:33 pm

NeilW wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:Tell that to the relatives of the more than 1000 people registered as dying from Covid in the past two weeks. Or the relatives of the 367 Covid dead reported on Oct 27th.

John


And what about the other 21,000 people who have died in that time? Are they not that important any more?


That's just about the most blatant case of "whataboutism" I've seen for a long time.

John

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Re: Beerpig's Snug No Politics Coronavirus Thread

#351359

Postby redsturgeon » October 28th, 2020, 2:35 pm

johnhemming wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:I am genuinely trying to understand in what way "being paranoid" is affecting the pandemic response in a negative way. Could someone please explain that to me.

From what I have seen over the past few months it is complacency rather than paranoia that has brought us to where we find ourselves now.


Although I don't think being abusive assists in discussing issues more generally I do think there is good evidence that the actions of the lockdown prevented the disease spreading more widely during the summer which is resulting in more people dying from the disease at the moment.


You are right of course and it is a fault I am prone too but I just hate it when people try to fob me off with glib and ill thought through comments.

John


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