Wet led pubs & government 50% scheme

[didds]

Not really LOST, not really legal, not really DAK so BP'sS it is!

You may all now be aware of the governments announcement for a 50% discount scheme for restaurant's early week dining, not to include any alcohol charges.

For wet led pubs (ie beer etc buit dont serve food except snacks etc), what's to stop them selling a supermarket sandwich for £4 (or whatever) and including a free pint and using the discount scheme? Or a cup of soup and a free pint? or a jacket spud and a free pint.

Naturally there woud be no expectation that anyone would actually eat the sandwich/soup/spud!

[bungeejumper]

I'm not sure whether Sunak would mind? If the sandwich got bought, and the customers bought some beer (and then a few more), and the bar staff stayed in their jobs, the benefit to the sector would still have been achieved. Or am I missing something?

BJ

[Arborbridge]

I'm not sure whether Sunak would mind? If the sandwich got bought, and the customers bought some beer (and then a few more), and the bar staff stayed in their jobs, the benefit to the sector would still have been achieved. Or am I missing something?

BJ

Given the point is to stimulate demand, I don't think you've missed it at all. Or maybe I have....

We have to get that multiplier going around and around again, it seems. Though I do think it's a whacky world where it is impossible for people just to sit back and do nothing (apart from bare necessities) if they feel like it without the system collapsing.

Arb.

[didds]

I'm not sure whether Sunak would mind? If the sandwich got bought, and the customers bought some beer (and then a few more), and the bar staff stayed in their jobs, the benefit to the sector would still have been achieved. Or am I missing something?

BJ

the point being the 50% discount only applies to food, not to (eg) beer. So there is no discount available on said pint to attract beer drinkers.
Wet led pubs dont have food ordinarily to attract any customers of course.

So instead of selling a pint at (say) £4 a pint, in order to stuimulate trade a pub could instead sell a slice of bread and marge (or sandwich etc etc) for £4, which would attract the 50% discount (ie its food) so it would cost the customer £2. The pub could then give a free pint to every plate of food thus sold. So £2 would buy you some very simple food and a pint. In reality you aren't interested in the food, but are interested in a £2 pint. And the pub stimulates trade by getting customers attracted by in effect a £2 pint.

didds

[redsturgeon]

I expect Tim Martin to be reading this thread with interest.

John

[madhatter]

So instead of selling a pint at (say) £4 a pint, in order to stuimulate trade a pub could instead sell a slice of bread and marge (or sandwich etc etc) for £4, which would attract the 50% discount (ie its food) so it would cost the customer £2. The pub could then give a free pint to every plate of food thus sold. So £2 would buy you some very simple food and a pint. In reality you aren't interested in the food, but are interested in a £2 pint. And the pub stimulates trade by getting customers attracted by in effect a £2 pint.

But somebody (the pub?) would still have to buy the “free pint” in the first place. Do they not still have taxes to pay for that, or are they automatically reclaimed on the basis that the end users stump up?

[Laughton]

Presumably the bar would have to have a range of bread slices at different prices in order to allow for different prices for different alcoholic drinks?

I'm not sure how Trading Standards would view identical slices of bread and marge being charged at different prices depending on which "free" drink accompanied it.

But I'm definitely interested if someone with legal knowledge has a view - my son runs a cafe/bar.

[AF62]

I'm not sure whether Sunak would mind? If the sandwich got bought, and the customers bought some beer (and then a few more), and the bar staff stayed in their jobs, the benefit to the sector would still have been achieved. Or am I missing something?

Sunak would be perfectly happy if something is getting bought with his (our) money and people stay off the unemployment register.

However what you are missing is the number of businesses that will not be selling anybody anything and will only appear to be doing so for the purposes of the scheme.

There will be an awful lot of restaurants who will suddenly be full to bursting point for three or four covers every Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, whether any customers actually sat down to eat or not, and are just submitting the claims.

Presumably the bar would have to have a range of bread slices at different prices in order to allow for different prices for different alcoholic drinks?

I'm not sure how Trading Standards would view identical slices of bread and marge being charged at different prices depending on which "free" drink accompanied it.

But I'm definitely interested if someone with legal knowledge has a view - my son runs a cafe/bar.

It wouldn't be Trading Standards that would be interested, but HMRC, both for VAT and because they are operating the subsidy.

And as for a 'free' pint argument - don't forget the food and alcoholic drink will be at different VAT rates - food at the new reduced 5% and the alcohol still at 20% so your 'story' would have to hold true against that as well. Larger companies have tried the 'but it is free' argument before with HMRC, and lost - https://www.rpc.co.uk/perspectives/tax- ... ct-to-vat/

[stevensfo]

I expect Tim Martin to be reading this thread with interest.

John

Oh God! Even before his childish and ignorant outbursts about Covid, I had started to avoid his sticky and slimy Wetherspoon cesspits. The last straw was one in Hull over a year ago that was just embarrassing. Never again!


Steve

[redsturgeon]

I expect Tim Martin to be reading this thread with interest.

John

Oh God! Even before his childish and ignorant outbursts about Covid, I had started to avoid his sticky and slimy Wetherspoon cesspits. The last straw was one in Hull over a year ago that was just embarrassing. Never again!


Steve

I am proud to say that I have never been in a Wetherspoons.

John

[Lootman]

For wet led pubs (ie beer etc buit dont serve food except snacks etc), what's to stop them selling a supermarket sandwich for £4 (or whatever) and including a free pint and using the discount scheme? Or a cup of soup and a free pint? or a jacket spud and a free pint.

Reminds me of a job I had that involved a lot of travel, and there was a maximum expense allowance for each meal.

I would often order a sandwich and as much beer as would take me up to that limit. The boss never minded. Perhaps he did the same thing himself.

[AF62]

For wet led pubs (ie beer etc buit dont serve food except snacks etc), what's to stop them selling a supermarket sandwich for £4 (or whatever) and including a free pint and using the discount scheme? Or a cup of soup and a free pint? or a jacket spud and a free pint.

Reminds me of a job I had that involved a lot of travel, and there was a maximum expense allowance for each meal.

I would often order a sandwich and as much beer as would take me up to that limit. The boss never minded. Perhaps he did the same thing himself.

Exactly, expense allowances are targets not limits. And my employer allows a 'reasonable' quantity of alcohol to purchased with a meal, but helpfully doesn't define what 'reasonable' is...

[Laughton]

"However what you are missing is the number of businesses that will not be selling anybody anything and will only appear to be doing so for the purposes of the scheme."

As it now seems as though everyone is paying for everything by card isn't the risk that someone from HMRC asks for August's bank/credit card records showing all the charges that you're claiming against?

OK, that might be a lot of work but there are likely to be an awful lot of unemployed people keen to sign up to do the job. Or even a data mining company who could automate the process.

As you say, there's going to be an awful lot of fraud going on.

[AF62]

"However what you are missing is the number of businesses that will not be selling anybody anything and will only appear to be doing so for the purposes of the scheme."

As it now seems as though everyone is paying for everything by card isn't the risk that someone from HMRC asks for August's bank/credit card records showing all the charges that you're claiming against?

You obviously haven't come across all the places in London which have a sign on the door saying "Cash only". And anyway there will be a handy sale of the business in September and the new owner (who will look surprisingly similar to the old owner) will know nothing.

OK, that might be a lot of work but there are likely to be an awful lot of unemployed people keen to sign up to do the job. Or even a data mining company who could automate the process.

As you say, there's going to be an awful lot of fraud going on.

Well there is going to be 2,500 fewer people at HMRC to deal with the issues - https://www.publictechnology.net/articl ... eview-goes

[stewamax]

This legal loophole was closed years ago. You can give alcohol away as long as its 'value' is not included in the price of anything else you sell.
This includes entry charges, sandwiches or raffle tickets if there is a contingent connection between them and the alcohol.
And having a free bar with a "donations bucket" at the end is a very grey area, depending on how prominent the bucket was and forceful the expected donation!

[Itsallaguess]

I expect Tim Martin to be reading this thread with interest.

Oh God! Even before his childish and ignorant outbursts about Covid, I had started to avoid his sticky and slimy Wetherspoon cesspits.

The last straw was one in Hull over a year ago that was just embarrassing. Never again!

Are you aware of the 'Neverspoons' app?

Thousands flock to Neverspoons pub app -

A man who built an app in his spare time that highlights independent pubs close to Wetherspoons venues, says he has been amazed by the response.

The Android app Neverspoons has been downloaded nearly 18,000 times in its first week - more than Shane Jones expected from the first six months. It is currently top of the free app chart on Google Play.

The name is a pun on the pub chain Wetherspoons but Mr Jones said he just wanted to give smaller pubs a boost.

https://in.news.yahoo.com/thousands-flock-neverspoons-pub-app-132252058.html

A timely boost for the smaller independents..

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[didds]

Are you aware of the 'Neverspoons' app?

Yes. its rubbish!

I had a look at it last week. Our town has 17 non spoons pubs pubs in it - the app includes just three pubs, two of which are tied to, or managed by, a large regional brewery. If a tied/maneged pub to a large concern counts as "independent" (ask the tenants how indepenedent they are!) then frankly every where is "independent" except wetherspoons and _maybe_ some pubco stuff like GK. On that basis you dont need an app to find a "independent" pub, you just need a pair of eyes. Its in effect then not an app to highlight independent pubs, its just one that shows pubs that are not wetherspoons - hardly anything difficult to ascertain yourself.

Frankly, the free CAMRA GBG app - which includes non GBG entries - will do exactly the same thing, and apps like Untappd will effectively show you the same thing also. The CAMRA ap uses the same data to be found at the somehwat cludgy https://whatpub.com

As for inclusion, from their own twitter account they've lifted the pubs from google search, based on whether that indicates if the pub is re-opened ... all three of the entries in our town are not re-opened! So its data collection is shonky for starters. I checked with the management of one of the three pubs here and they said they knew nothing about it, underlining that inclusion is no more than a very very basic google check and nothing to do with the establishment - except its not a 'spoons. Another of the inclusions is - as described by a chum - a spoons in all but name... generic plastic pub anywhere style, cheap grub... but a managed house belonging to the local regeional brewery.

A pointless app. If you need an app to help find a decent pub, use untappd I'd suggest.

didds

[UncleEbenezer]

Yes. its rubbish!

didds

The app itself is surely irrelevant: would anyone seriously pick a pub from an app?

The point is the fact that it exists under that name. It reminds us of reasons for going to a non-Wetherspoons, and provokes responses from those like yourself who have something to add.

[Lootman]

Yes. its rubbish!

The app itself is surely irrelevant: would anyone seriously pick a pub from an app?

The point is the fact that it exists under that name. It reminds us of reasons for going to a non-Wetherspoons, and provokes responses from those like yourself who have something to add.

Well, I for one like Wetherspoons pubs.

There, I've said it now.

[didds]

Well, I for one like Wetherspoons pubs.

There, I've said it now.

Nowt wrong with that lootman. In our town we are lucky - we have several excellent pubs and WS isnt "needed" for me and my chums etc.

Other towns are not so lucky - often spoons is the only realistic option in some towns.

didds