University bribing students to defer

[didds]

Prospective students could avoid the problems of most universities, in particular forced deferral (there will be quite a few of these), by looking at The Open University.

Is it possible to do a Batchelors in three years with the OU? (straight question). All Ive heard of is people taking seven years to acheive their degree but that could be for all i know because of the limited opportunities for study whilst also working etc of course. Id imagine the average 19 year old doesnt want to wait until 26 years old to graduate (generically speaking)

didds

[didds]

Great for study in later life.

But for an 18-year-old, it loses half the point of university: to leave the parental home and live with ones peers! Which is probably more important than the actual studies for many (most?) shaking off the apron strings.

If only for the long suffering parents!

didds

[didds]

The thing about the Oxbridge system is that, on advancing to your MA you become a Senior Member of the University and are no longer in statu pupilari, hence out of the Proctor's reach. From memory it is 14 terms after Matriculation, and if you left your Caution Money in place, that covered the cost.

TJH

Could you translate that please TJH, for us mere mortals from alma mater such as Aberystwyth

didds

[swill453]

Prospective students could avoid the problems of most universities, in particular forced deferral (there will be quite a few of these), by looking at The Open University.
...
more highly rated than most other universities

Do you think this sentiment is shared by all prospective employers?

Scott.

[tjh290633]

The thing about the Oxbridge system is that, on advancing to your MA you become a Senior Member of the University and are no longer in statu pupilari, hence out of the Proctor's reach. From memory it is 14 terms after Matriculation, and if you left your Caution Money in place, that covered the cost.

TJH

Could you translate that please TJH, for us mere mortals from alma mater such as Aberystwyth

didds

Willingly. The standard undergraduate degree is (or was) the Batchelor of Arts, which you received after your Finals had been announced. In my day you were required to deposit Caution Money before you went up, something like £30 as I recall, and if you left that there after you had graduated it was enough to cover the cost of advancing to your MA after the required time had elapsed. You could take your MA in absentia if you wished. There was no need to eat any dinners or do anything other than stay alive. Until you had taken your MA you remained an undergraduate and were subject to the Proctors' Jurisdiction.

In fact I withdrew my caution money as I needed it for the deposit on a new car, and so didn't take my MA until many years later. I took mine without actually going to the ceremony (in absentia) but my daughter and her friends took both their BA and MA on the same day, involving changes of gowns and hoods in between and much doffing of academic caps. As I had to do a fourth year, to get my Chemistry Degree classified, I took my BA in person, which involved a £1 tip to my scout, to provide the necessary cap, gown and hood. I think that I inherited a BA gown from a friend, and passed it on to another friend after I had finished my fourth year.

One advantage of taking your MA was that you were then invited to Gaudies when they happened for your year. I have been to two, at the College's expense.

TJH

[SalvorHardin]

Is it possible to do a Batchelors in three years with the OU? (straight question). All Ive heard of is people taking seven years to acheive their degree but that could be for all i know because of the limited opportunities for study whilst also working etc of course. Id imagine the average 19 year old doesnt want to wait until 26 years old to graduate (generically speaking)

Most people take six to seven years because they are can't free up enough time to take more courses in each year. Full-time work plus part-time study generally doesn't leave the time to do a degree in three years.

However, three years is doable if you can spare something like 20-30 hours per week and are highly motivated (and well organised). A motivated 18 year old could easily graduate within three years, particularly if they are very good whatever they are studying (or they take easier courses). My first OU degree (Maths) took four years in my early twenties whilst working full-time (and also being in the Territorial Army for 3 years). After retiring my Law degree took three years but I could have easily done it in two years.

If you haven't got a degree, then to get an OU degree you need to pass 360 points worth of course credits. Most OU courses are worth 30 or 60 points and take 30 weeks. Your typical student takes a 60 point course or maybe two 30 point courses each year. The OU will allow students to take 120 points of courses in a year.

The OU reckons that a 60 point course requires 16-18 hours a week over 30 weeks (and 30 point course is 8-9 hours per week). Of course some courses are easier/tougher than others. Several years ago I did the third year 60-point Shakespeare course which took me roughly 8 hours per week and it was the easiest OU course I've done (and I don't have any great aptitude for that sort of study). A few years before that I did the 30 point Relativity and Cosmology course and spent about 12 hours per week on it.

If you already have a degree you only need to pass 240 points worth of courses for another degree (this assumes that the credit transfer rules haven't changed in recent years).

[Urbandreamer]

Readers of this thread may find this weeks econtalk of interest.

https://www.econtalk.org/michael-munger ... education/

Two US achedemic's talking about the purpose of University's and what they provide.
Education is just a small part and they start by agreeing that might in many instances be provided by online or video courses. Possibly with hands on stuff organised as special events, just as the OU has for a long time.

[SalvorHardin]

Prospective students could avoid the problems of most universities, in particular forced deferral (there will be quite a few of these), by looking at The Open University.
...
more highly rated than most other universities

Do you think this sentiment is shared by all prospective employers?

No. For starters, there are some employers who only recruit graduate trainees from the Russell Group ("Top" 24). Or Oxbridge. These treat all other universities as the same.

In ranking tables the OU generally ranks below the Russell Group, but not much below (in the thirties), so well above most UK universities.

My experience is that the OU degree signals to employers that the person is highly motivated and good at organising themselves. It's a lot easier to get a degree as a full-time student than if you've got a job and family responsibilities. For many employers that's very important.

[didds]

Until you had taken your MA you remained an undergraduate and were subject to the Proctors' Jurisdiction.
TJH

And what is "the Proctors' Jurisdiction." ? And what is the benefit by gaining a Masters of no longer having it ?

cheers

didds

[JohnB]

Proctors are university officials that enforce regulations on students. (Until 2003 they had a force of "Bulldogs", a private police force that wore bowler hats wandering the town centre on Saturday night, not that I ever saw one). You need to report to them if you've committed an offence that goes beyond college discipline. They can decide to suspend you for a term or permanently (being "sent down", or the charming "rusticated"). A friend spotted waiting in ambush with Uzi-style water-pistol just after Hungerford had the armed police squad called, who left the matter in the hands of the proctors, who were lenient.

Never had Caution Money in the 1990s, and when I asked around recently, very few people had paid the tenner (now £40) to get their MA, or used it have have dinner in hall (free, but wine and dessert extra). I got mine when I got a taught MSc from London, as MA (Phys), MSc (Remote Sensing) sounded good.

[Lootman]

there are some employers who only recruit graduate trainees from the Russell Group ("Top" 24). Or Oxbridge. These treat all other universities as the same

Back when I used to do a lot of hiring, I must admit to having some prejudice around this. Basically if someone had a degree from a University that didn't exist when I went to University (early and mid 1970s) then I would feel less comfortable with that. Back then there was basically just those 24 plus some newer post-WW2 universities like Bath and Sussex which got their charter in the 1960s.

Obviously at some point a lot of former colleges and polytechnics got promoted to University status. And we are at the point now where 30% to 40% of school leavers go to Uni versus 3% or 4% back in my day. So I cannot help but believe that the average standard of a graduate is much lower now. By sticking to the 24 the hope is that you maintain the former standard.

Of course the OU was around back then as well. My wife got a degree from the OU and managed a First. Took her 4 years as she was working full-time.

[tjh290633]

Until you had taken your MA you remained an undergraduate and were subject to the Proctors' Jurisdiction.
TJH

And what is "the Proctors' Jurisdiction." ? And what is the benefit by gaining a Masters of no longer having it ?

cheers

didds

To give you an example, all vehicles owned and driven by undergraduates had to display a green light at the ftont, which must be illuminated at all times when the side lights were on. If you did not have a green light, or had one which was unlit, you could be hauled before the Proctors and fined. I had an ex-GPO Telephone Van, with a ladder rack on the roof. I fixed my green light to the front of the ladder rack, high up but clearly visible. This did not meet with the Proctors' approval, so I was duly called to attend. Because the light worked and was very obvious, I escaped the fine, but had to agree with the head Bulldog (University Policeman) a suitable place at the front of the vehicle where it could be located. Not having a bumper bar, or any other impedimenta at the front, we agreed that it should sit at the top of the radiator grille (This was a Morris 8 series Z, similar to a series E) and so I duly located it there, went back to the Proctors' Office and showed it to the Head Bulldog, demonstrated that it came on with the sidelights, and all were satisfied. No lamp required by an MA, of course, and neither should an MA's vehicle be kept in a garage after midnight.

Another friend of mine was fined for throwing a firework from the back platform of an Oxford Bus on Guy Fawke's Night. In theory you could be fined for being out of college after midnight or before 6am, but I never heard of that rule being enforced. The College Dean was more likely to be the disciplinarian for being caught climbing in, or having ladies in your room after 7pm, but I digress.

TJH

[spasmodicus]

If we are to accept grade inflation at GCSE / A level so easily, why not just get our highly qualified teaching profession to decide whether their pupils should immediately be awarded a university degree, or not? That way,we could get rid of the whole bothersome business of university education altogether. In the olden days, there were a couple of universities, who shall remain nameless, who eschewed the centralised UCCA system and set their own entrance exams. These included subliminal tests of an applicant's accent and whether he (there were very few shes) knew the order in which knives and forks should be deployed at dinner.
S

[tjh290633]

In the olden days, there were a couple of universities, who shall remain nameless, who eschewed the centralised UCCA system and set their own entrance exams. These included subliminal tests of an applicant's accent and whether he (there were very few shes) knew the order in which knives and forks should be deployed at dinner.
S

UCCA hadn't been invented back then. There were only two Ladies' Colleges in Cambridge (Girton and Newnham) and five in Oxford (Somerville, Lady Margaret Hall, St Hugh's, St Hilda's and St Anne's Society). My College had a celebration this year of 40 years since Ladies were first admitted. They had a display of pictures of 40 of the more eminent alumnae, and a book was published with more details. See https://lincoln.ox.ac.uk/news/news-featured-1 if it is not behind a wall. You might recognise Suzannah Lipscombe among them.

I do recall dinner in hall at Trinity, Cambridge, when I took the scholarship exams there. It was the first time that I had encountered pheasant, shot and all. Certainly the interviews were an important part of the process. The way in which you held your implements might also have been noted.

TJH

[Mike88]

Until you had taken your MA you remained an undergraduate and were subject to the Proctors' Jurisdiction.
TJH

And what is "the Proctors' Jurisdiction." ? And what is the benefit by gaining a Masters of no longer having it ?

cheers

didds

To give you an example, all vehicles owned and driven by undergraduates had to display a green light at the ftont, which must be illuminated at all times when the side lights were on. If you did not have a green light, or had one which was unlit, you could be hauled before the Proctors and fined. I had an ex-GPO Telephone Van, with a ladder rack on the roof. I fixed my green light to the front of the ladder rack, high up but clearly visible. This did not meet with the Proctors' approval, so I was duly called to attend. Because the light worked and was very obvious, I escaped the fine, but had to agree with the head Bulldog (University Policeman) a suitable place at the front of the vehicle where it could be located. Not having a bumper bar, or any other impedimenta at the front, we agreed that it should sit at the top of the radiator grille (This was a Morris 8 series Z, similar to a series E) and so I duly located it there, went back to the Proctors' Office and showed it to the Head Bulldog, demonstrated that it came on with the sidelights, and all were satisfied. No lamp required by an MA, of course, and neither should an MA's vehicle be kept in a garage after midnight.

Another friend of mine was fined for throwing a firework from the back platform of an Oxford Bus on Guy Fawke's Night. In theory you could be fined for being out of college after midnight or before 6am, but I never heard of that rule being enforced. The College Dean was more likely to be the disciplinarian for being caught climbing in, or having ladies in your room after 7pm, but I digress.

TJH

Dare I ask how long ago that system prevailed? My sister was in Oxford over 40 years ago and I don't recall Proctors existing even then but I could be wrong as I was never around long enough to find out.

[tjh290633]

Dare I ask how long ago that system prevailed? My sister was in Oxford over 40 years ago and I don't recall Proctors existing even then but I could be wrong as I was never around long enough to find out.

You had to be a bad boy to know about the Bulldogs.

I am talking about the mid-1950s, but Wikipedia ia your friend as always. Bulldogs were abolished in 2003, and became "Proctors' Officers". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_University_Police

I think that the Proctors still exist.

TJH

[didds]

To give you an example, all vehicles owned and driven by undergraduates had to display a green light at the ftont, which must be illuminated at all times when the side lights were on. If you did not have a green light, or had one which was unlit, you could be hauled before the Proctors and fined. I had an ex-GPO Telephone Van, with a ladder rack on the roof. I fixed my green light to the front of the ladder rack, high up but clearly visible. This did not meet with the Proctors' approval, so I was duly called to attend. Because the light worked and was very obvious, I escaped the fine, but had to agree with the head Bulldog (University Policeman) a suitable place at the front of the vehicle where it could be located. Not having a bumper bar, or any other impedimenta at the front, we agreed that it should sit at the top of the radiator grille (This was a Morris 8 series Z, similar to a series E) and so I duly located it there, went back to the Proctors' Office and showed it to the Head Bulldog, demonstrated that it came on with the sidelights, and all were satisfied. No lamp required by an MA, of course, and neither should an MA's vehicle be kept in a garage after midnight.

what a totally bizarre scenario. wierd.

didds

[UncleEbenezer]

In theory you could be fined for being out of college after midnight or before 6am, but I never heard of that rule being enforced. The College Dean was more likely to be the disciplinarian for being caught climbing in, or having ladies in your room after 7pm, but I digress.

Love the anecdotes. Perhaps in your time it had happened within the memory of some folks you encountered? In my day the stories of college powers had kind-of a folklore status.

In the olden days, there were a couple of universities, who shall remain nameless, who eschewed the centralised UCCA system and set their own entrance exams. These included subliminal tests of an applicant's accent and whether he (there were very few shes) knew the order in which knives and forks should be deployed at dinner.
S

UCCA hadn't been invented back then. There were only two Ladies' Colleges in Cambridge (Girton and Newnham) and five in Oxford (Somerville, Lady Margaret Hall, St Hugh's, St Hilda's and St Anne's Society). My College had a celebration this year of 40 years since Ladies were first admitted. They had a display of pictures of 40 of the more eminent alumnae, and a book was published with more details. See https://lincoln.ox.ac.uk/news/news-featured-1 if it is not behind a wall. You might recognise Suzannah Lipscombe among them.
TJH

Oxbridge were part of UCCA in my day at least. There were separate entrance exams, but that seemed to me fully justified 'cos they didn't have the capacity to take every applicant who just scored straight A-grades at A-level, so if you're going to use exams at all you need something a bit more challenging! My immediate thought on reading of university institutions outside the system was a certain fully private institution, where someone I knew at Cambridge went when she failed her exams there.

Now that you mention it, it's also forty years (well, just under 41) since my Alma Mater first took male undergraduates (though if you visit the website they feature a different anniversary). Because it was women in charge - strong women including veterans of womens struggle among the senior members - they could do some things that a male institution would never have got away with, and had a fantastic atmosphere.

[JohnB]

There still is a compulsory Physics aptitude test for Oxford, https://www2.physics.ox.ac.uk/study-her ... e-test-pat. I still understood most of the questions, but I was a lot sharper at 16 1/2.

[tjh290633]

Love the anecdotes. Perhaps in your time it had happened within the memory of some folks you encountered? In my day the stories of college powers had kind-of a folklore status.

Lots of things happened in my time. One classic concerned a party in a friend's rooms after the end of term. About midnight there was a knock on the door and it was the College Dean. He volunteered to let any visitors out through the side door, to avoid having to climb out, then turned and saw 3 women in the room. He was as good as his word, and we all left quietly.

Another occasion in my first year, my bicycle got drunk and would only go in semicircles. I ended up on the floor of a friend's digs overnight and returned to College, slightly less intoxicated, about breakfast time. I discovered that my scout had closed my "Oak" to cover my non-presence. He also dosed me with Dr J Collis-Browne's Chlorodyne, which had a very beneficial effect. A good lad, was Jim Bayliss.

Climbing in was undertaken on a number of occasions. Not too difficult, as there was usually a bicycle placed strategically against the wall of the Rector's Garden. Using this to get over the wall, the next hurdle was to get onto the roof of the Library Passage, then onto the roof of the "Fleet" (the toilet block) and down into the Grove. We shared this route with Brasenose, next door. An alternative route was via All Saints' Churchyard, with just railings to negotiate to get to the Library Passage.

Another peculiarity was St Anne's, who had a regulation saying that gentlemen could be entertained to breakfast on Sunday Mornings after 10am. Usually the opposite sex were only allowed in between 2 and 7pm.

One could go on...

TJH