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USA: is it something in their water?

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redsturgeon
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Re: USA: is it something in their water?

#335675

Postby redsturgeon » August 25th, 2020, 7:05 am

Moderator Message:
Please remember where you are, this topic is getting close to being either shut down or moved.

Stonge
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Re: USA: is it something in their water?

#335735

Postby Stonge » August 25th, 2020, 10:42 am

I don't watch the news or read the papers.

I'm ignorant?

8-)

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Re: USA: is it something in their water?

#335750

Postby XFool » August 25th, 2020, 11:14 am

FWIW...

IMO the following article 'relates' to the OP:

The realism of magic

New Statesman

Human beings have always needed something to leaven the effects of science and religion.

simsqu
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Re: USA: is it something in their water?

#335850

Postby simsqu » August 25th, 2020, 4:49 pm

AlumniLawn wrote:
simsqu wrote:Ever since 2016, the world has gone tits-up.


I have a relative who said the same thing in 1916 and another one who said the same thing in 1816 and yet another in 1716.

You get the picture.


You are quite right to point this out to me: usually I am the first to call out the "it was better in the old days" brigade but here I am becoming one. It's all gone tits-up

didds
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Re: USA: is it something in their water?

#335857

Postby didds » August 25th, 2020, 5:14 pm

simsqu wrote: It's all gone tits-up


Its not THAT good...

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Re: USA: is it something in their water?

#335898

Postby 88V8 » August 25th, 2020, 8:17 pm

I wonder how it would be without social media.
It does amplify, as has been said, an echo chamber where people can stoke themselves into a lather.
Same with this site of course, a polite echo chamber with few of us right-wingers on here, or if there are they keep pretty quiet.

It's not really surprising that some Americans are unhappy. Given birthrate and population trends, within a lifetime the whites will be in a minority, with the show being increasingly run by Hispanics &/or blacks. When one looks at Hispanic and black countries, most of them are not exactly a shining beacon.
This does not augur well for the world order in the late 21st, nor the interests of The West. All the Chinese have to do is sit there and watch while the US becomes a dysfunctional mess.

Not surprising that Trump supporters who of course think deeply about poitico-economic issues feel somewhat despondent.

Re the latest shooting... so someone is shot for no good reason, seven times, and lives. Doesn't say much for the intelligence of the shooter, the quality of the gun or the proficiency of the shooting. Pretty poor show all round.

V8

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Re: USA: is it something in their water?

#335902

Postby Lootman » August 25th, 2020, 8:33 pm

88V8 wrote:It's not really surprising that some Americans are unhappy. Given birthrate and population trends, within a lifetime the whites will be in a minority, with the show being increasingly run by Hispanics &/or blacks. When one looks at Hispanic and black countries, most of them are not exactly a shining beacon.

This does not augur well for the world order in the late 21st, nor the interests of The West. All the Chinese have to do is sit there and watch while the US becomes a dysfunctional mess.

Hispanics are growing at a clip. Asians as well but they are still only about 3% (although 2020 is a census year so that may change).

Blacks are declining as a percentage as not many Africans emigrate to the US and African-Americans have an unfortunate habit of murdering each other and dying young, which outweighs their tendency to reproduce a lot.

Blacks and Hispanics are about 25% of US population, divided equally. But they are not a solid voting bloc - many Hispanics are conservative and, as Catholics, particularly on social issues. Also blacks and Hispanics don't always like each other a whole lot.

88V8 wrote:Re the latest shooting... so someone is shot for no good reason, seven times, and lives. Doesn't say much for the intelligence of the shooter, the quality of the gun or the proficiency of the shooting. Pretty poor show all round.

Sometimes I despair when I watch these videos. The guy was stopped by cops on a domestic violence incident and he had a knife, apparently. The police pulled guns on him and, presumably, told him to "freeze".

So what does he do? Walk away from the cops and try and get in his car. Now maybe that didn't deserve being shot 7 times but surely when a cop points a gun at you and tells you to not move, why would you move?

Almost every video I have seen like this, the guy does something that is plain dumb and provocative.

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Re: USA: is it something in their water?

#335909

Postby swill453 » August 25th, 2020, 8:45 pm

Strange that white people can do dumb things and not get shot though.

Scott.

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Re: USA: is it something in their water?

#335913

Postby Lootman » August 25th, 2020, 8:56 pm

swill453 wrote:Strange that white people can do dumb things and not get shot though.

Imagine you are a cop in Baltimore or St. Louis or Memphis or NOLA. Imagine that 90% of the time you get resistance or attitude or disobedience or a lack of cooperation, it's a black guy. Now imagine further that every time you are threatened it is almost always a black guy.

When you stop a young black guy are you maybe going to be more wary and jumpy than if you stop an elderly Asian woman? This quote by Jesse Jackson echoes the sentiment:

“There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps... then turn around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”

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Re: USA: is it something in their water?

#335915

Postby gryffron » August 25th, 2020, 9:04 pm

swill453 wrote:Strange that white people can do dumb things and not get shot though.

In the USA criminals get shot by the police. Often. All criminals regardless of race. It just doesn't suit the media agenda to report it.

And BTW, when did looting and burning your own neighbourhood become a legitimate protest? And then they'll wonder why all the decent folk (of every colour) have moved out, the area has gone downhill, and there are no jobs.

Gryff

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Re: USA: is it something in their water?

#335924

Postby UncleEbenezer » August 25th, 2020, 9:26 pm

88V8 wrote:All the Chinese have to do is sit there and watch while the US becomes a dysfunctional mess.

Why would the chinese want that?

The Chinese want China to continue to develop and prosper. That goal is best served by healthy trade with strong and healthy trading partners - as the US has been for most of the post-Mao era.

I'd be more concerned about the UK mess. Though from a Chinese PoV that must be a whole lot easier to write off as negligible.

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Re: USA: is it something in their water?

#335926

Postby Leothebear » August 25th, 2020, 9:41 pm

Lootman wrote:
88V8 wrote:It's not really surprising that some Americans are unhappy. Given birthrate and population trends, within a lifetime the whites will be in a minority, with the show being increasingly run by Hispanics &/or blacks. When one looks at Hispanic and black countries, most of them are not exactly a shining beacon.

This does not augur well for the world order in the late 21st, nor the interests of The West. All the Chinese have to do is sit there and watch while the US becomes a dysfunctional mess.

Hispanics are growing at a clip. Asians as well but they are still only about 3% (although 2020 is a census year so that may change).

Blacks are declining as a percentage as not many Africans emigrate to the US and African-Americans have an unfortunate habit of murdering each other and dying young, which outweighs their tendency to reproduce a lot.

Blacks and Hispanics are about 25% of US population, divided equally. But they are not a solid voting bloc - many Hispanics are conservative and, as Catholics, particularly on social issues. Also blacks and Hispanics don't always like each other a whole lot.

88V8 wrote:Re the latest shooting... so someone is shot for no good reason, seven times, and lives. Doesn't say much for the intelligence of the shooter, the quality of the gun or the proficiency of the shooting. Pretty poor show all round.

Sometimes I despair when I watch these videos. The guy was stopped by cops on a domestic violence incident and he had a knife, apparently. The police pulled guns on him and, presumably, told him to "freeze".

So what does he do? Walk away from the cops and try and get in his car. Now maybe that didn't deserve being shot 7 times but surely when a cop points a gun at you and tells you to not move, why would you move?

Almost every video I have seen like this, the guy does something that is plain dumb and provocative.


You must have seen the video. Can you really justify the actions of the police? Seven bullets in the back? Come on.

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Re: USA: is it something in their water?

#335930

Postby Lootman » August 25th, 2020, 9:52 pm

Leothebear wrote:
Lootman wrote:Sometimes I despair when I watch these videos. The guy was stopped by cops on a domestic violence incident and he had a knife, apparently. The police pulled guns on him and, presumably, told him to "freeze".

So what does he do? Walk away from the cops and try and get in his car. Now maybe that didn't deserve being shot 7 times but surely when a cop points a gun at you and tells you to not move, why would you move?

Almost every video I have seen like this, the guy does something that is plain dumb and provocative.

You must have seen the video. Can you really justify the actions of the police? Seven bullets in the back? Come on.

I was not justifying the actions as much as seeking to understand them.

If a cop points a gun at you and tells you not to move, would you move?

And what is the point of a cop pointing a gun at you if not to prevent that happening under threat of being shot?

There is a legitimate questions about whether cops should shoot someone merely to prevent them from escaping arrest. The usual rule of thumb for that is whether or not the perp represents a threat to others. Given the DV incident and the claim that he had a knife, that seems at least possible as a justification.

As for 7 shots I believe the threshold is that, once a perp is identified as a threat then it can take multiple shots to disable the perp. The idea is to incapacitate by either a shot to the head or a rapid decline in blood pressure which can take multiple shots. There is a lot of ballistic theory behind that.

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Re: USA: is it something in their water?

#335941

Postby bluedonkey » August 25th, 2020, 10:31 pm

What a depressing thread this has become. Are there any black posters on here?

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Re: USA: is it something in their water?

#335943

Postby 88V8 » August 25th, 2020, 11:06 pm

bluedonkey wrote:What a depressing thread this has become. Are there any black posters on here?

It is hard to see the world through a clear pair of eyes without becoming a tad depressed.

My long-time neighbour only listened to Radio 3. He was a cheerful chap.

V8

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Re: USA: is it something in their water?

#335945

Postby didds » August 25th, 2020, 11:28 pm

Lootman wrote:So what does he do? Walk away from the cops and try and get in his car. Now maybe that didn't deserve being shot 7 times but surely when a cop points a gun at you and tells you to not move, why would you move?


pure conjecture... because as a black man in the USA surrounded by white police officers with guns he may believe if he stands still he'll be shot anyway?

didds

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Re: USA: is it something in their water?

#335948

Postby gryffron » August 25th, 2020, 11:41 pm

Leothebear wrote:You must have seen the video. Can you really justify the actions of the police? Seven bullets in the back? Come on.

So, just for a moment, what's the alternative? Let a violent, knife armed man drive off with the kids. Is that what you would have done? Is that what the mother would have wanted? Remember, she called the police in the first place.

How do you then stop a dangerous man in an SUV without hurting the kids? How do you stop him hurting the kids?

Sure, it's a difficult judgement call. Police are called upon to make such judgments every day. I'll even concede they get it wrong - occasionally. But not nearly as often as the utterly one-sided agenda-driven press/social media would like you to believe.

Gryff

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Re: USA: is it something in their water?

#335953

Postby servodude » August 26th, 2020, 12:04 am

didds wrote:
Lootman wrote:So what does he do? Walk away from the cops and try and get in his car. Now maybe that didn't deserve being shot 7 times but surely when a cop points a gun at you and tells you to not move, why would you move?


pure conjecture... because as a black man in the USA surrounded by white police officers with guns he may believe if he stands still he'll be shot anyway?

didds


2020 and "they were asking for it" seems to still be the excuse :roll:

anyways I'm pretty sure it's not their water
I used to think it was what passed for TV that might have been the cause, but that seems to have spread worldwide (excluding perhaps the perfidious way they do "news") without everywhere else descending in to complete disarray.

perhaps it's the dream component of "the American Dream" that makes them susceptible to fantasy

It can be argued that belief/faith in the myths of things like chiropractic or homeopathy might add to their placebo effect but that unfortunately doesn't carry over to politics where buying in to the cults of Trump, QAnon, or ISIS etc compounds problems because proper solutions to what might be the underlying issues are not sought.
Politics or society based on division doesn't need solutions it just needs sides

- sd

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Re: USA: is it something in their water?

#335977

Postby didds » August 26th, 2020, 8:17 am

Did he have a knife after all?

straight question.

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Re: USA: is it something in their water?

#335978

Postby didds » August 26th, 2020, 8:20 am

This all sums up the basic problem with weapons-as-a-first-resort.

Once the officer had drawn their weapon and pointed it at somebody - there is now a binary situation. The person either aquiesces - or they dont.

And if they don't the officer has now painted themself into a corner where there is only one outcome.

didds


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