What is it with the French?

[scrumpyjack]

They invade and conquer us in 1066 and all that, installing their nobles everywhere. They set up the Ius Prima Nocte so their nobles have free rein to scr?w English girls.

We got a bit of payback at Agincourt, but then that was french nobles invading france, but using English peasants to do it.

Then Napoleon roams around Europe trying to conquer everyone else, until stopped by Nelson and Wellington.

Then when Germany does to them what they had done to Germany under Napoleon, we, twice, with the dear Yanks, bail them out.

Having refused to let us in the EU under de Gaulle, when we eventually join under that ninny Heath, they screw us again at every turn.

Finally when we have the de gaul to leave the EU, they again try to screw us again permanently and take our fish.

And yet we still talk about the Entente Cordiale and let them put an ‘e’ on Concord.

Are we complete suckers or just too nice?

[XFool]

Perhaps this offers an explanation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Dy-VhtGcXw

[Nimrod103]

Successive Kings of England had very good title to ownership of provinces of France (Normandy, Ponthieu, Anjou, Aquitaine etc), but the Kings of France managed to strip them of their rights on numerous occasions. Hence the need to go over there and win them back at Crecy, Poitiers, Agincourt etc.

However, it is perhaps a sobering thought that had Henry VI not lost all of his French possessions in the mid Fifteenth century, it is highly likely that English would never have arisen as our language, and we would now be condemned to speaking French.

[stevensfo]

The French did not conquer England in 1066. The Normans did. Scandinavian settlers who had already beat the sh*t out of the French/Franks, started to adopt a Norman-French language, then Anglo-Norman, and had very close links to powerful English families. The French were terrified of the Normans, not least because they were great buddies with the Pope in Rome. Why on earth, with the British reputation for ferocity against Vikings, do you think the Norman takeover proceed so smoothly? Why did they have such respect for English literature? Because it had roots going back to their own.

The whole nationalistic fervour created these days has its roots in the realisation by the rich elite who live abroad anyway, that it's quite easy to control ignorant plebs with tabloid-style headlines.

Steve

[Lootman]

Al Bundy, the misanthropic character in long-running US sitcom "Married with Children" expressed this best, I always think:

"It's just wrong to be French".

[stewamax]

Let it not be forgotten that we still use Norman French. It is language of heraldry but it is also used routinely at the bar of the House of Commons by the Clerk of the Parliaments when announcing Royal Assent to Parliamentary Bills: ‘La Reyne le veult’, ‘La Reyne remercie ses bons sujets, accepte leur benevolence, et ainsi le veult’ and ‘Soit fait comme il est désiré’ for public and private members Bills, supply Bills and personal Bills respectively.

For some unaccountable reason Cromwell preferred English and tried to abolish the practice, but Norman French was resumed after the Restoration. In the early eighteenth century the House of Lords tried again to abolish Norman French in Parliament and in the Law Courts, but the House of Commons refused to pass this novel idea. The Law Courts moved to English in the 1730s (one could argue that legal principles were in Latin anyway) but Parliamentary usage was unaffected.

We continue with the practice in order that than Johnny Frenchman feels more at home when on a tourist visit to the Commons, but with secession from the EU it is high time we reverted to Anglo Saxon, with Old Norse permitted in Law Courts in the Danelaw.

[stevensfo]

........ but with secession from the EU it is high time we reverted to Anglo Saxon, with Old Norse permitted in Law Courts in the Danelaw.

Why stop there? Old English or Anglo Saxon was forced on the poor Brits by loads of drunken Danes and North Germans who came over to help us celebrate when the Romans left, but then decided to stay.

Let's revert to the original British language

I can handle a bit of the Welsh. Are you okay with Cornish?

Steve

[Nimrod103]

........ but with secession from the EU it is high time we reverted to Anglo Saxon, with Old Norse permitted in Law Courts in the Danelaw.

Why stop there? Old English or Anglo Saxon was forced on the poor Brits by loads of drunken Danes and North Germans who came over to help us celebrate when the Romans left, but then decided to stay.

Let's revert to the original British language

I can handle a bit of the Welsh. Are you okay with Cornish?

Steve

Can I just point out that there is no evidence of the language spoken by the Britons in what is now England before the Romans arrived, nor for that matter what their ethnic group was. There are virtually no definitely Welsh/Cornish words or place names in England, except in Cornwall and near the Welsh border, which is strange unless it is assumed that ancient Britons living in what is now England, didn't actually speak Welsh/Cornish.

The idea that they somehow spoke proto-Welsh is just part of the pan Celtic-fringe victimhood myth. Julius Caesar regarded those he encountered in southern England as being related to the Belgae, a near Germanic tribe of northern Europe, and it is entirely possible that they spoke a sort of Proto English, not much different from the language spoken by the new invading royal princes from Denmark and Frisia, who arrived after the Romans left.

[Sorcery]

........ but with secession from the EU it is high time we reverted to Anglo Saxon, with Old Norse permitted in Law Courts in the Danelaw.

Why stop there? Old English or Anglo Saxon was forced on the poor Brits by loads of drunken Danes and North Germans who came over to help us celebrate when the Romans left, but then decided to stay.

Let's revert to the original British language

I can handle a bit of the Welsh. Are you okay with Cornish?

Steve

Can I just point out that there is no evidence of the language spoken by the Britons in what is now England before the Romans arrived, nor for that matter what their ethnic group was. There are virtually no definitely Welsh/Cornish words or place names in England, except in Cornwall and near the Welsh border, which is strange unless it is assumed that ancient Britons living in what is now England, didn't actually speak Welsh/Cornish.

The idea that they somehow spoke proto-Welsh is just part of the pan Celtic-fringe victimhood myth. Julius Caesar regarded those he encountered in southern England as being related to the Belgae, a near Germanic tribe of northern Europe, and it is entirely possible that they spoke a sort of Proto English, not much different from the language spoken by the new invading royal princes from Denmark and Frisia, who arrived after the Romans left.

I can imagine the remaining (!) celto romans spoke latin for their sins. Thank god we changed the language. I still have nightmares about enforced latin classes.

[Nimrod103]

I can imagine the remaining (!) celto romans spoke latin for their sins. Thank god we changed the language. I still have nightmares about enforced latin classes.

Indeed. I went to a school where the school song (do they have such things nowadays?) was in Latin, but three quarters of the pupils did not study Latin. God knows what they made of it.

[UncleEbenezer]

Are we complete suckers or just too nice?

Nope.

You forgot one of the biggest ones of all: they (specifically Lafayette) booted us out of our second-best colony and installed a local warlord as President.
Look where that led!

[stooz]

I don't have access to the article but the headline says a lot.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 0IFZEHZYlg

[tjh290633]

Can I just point out that there is no evidence of the language spoken by the Britons in what is now England before the Romans arrived, nor for that matter what their ethnic group was. There are virtually no definitely Welsh/Cornish words or place names in England, except in Cornwall and near the Welsh border, which is strange unless it is assumed that ancient Britons living in what is now England, didn't actually speak Welsh/Cornish.

When I went to School we had "Wales & Monmouthshire" and the border was shown as being down in the valleys. I crossed Offa's Dyke on my way to and from school each day. There were places with Welsh and English names either side of the border, which had obviously been very diffuse. I can think of Llangrove in Herefordshire, for example. How did St. Briavels get its name?

Local dialects use what are recognisably Welsh words, like cwch, and "Wenglish" phrasing can often be found.

Don't forget that the border has been moved.

TJH

[gryffron]

Julius Caesar regarded those he encountered in southern England as being related to the Belgae, a near Germanic tribe of northern Europe, and it is entirely possible that they spoke a sort of Proto English, not much different from the language spoken by the new invading royal princes from Denmark and Frisia, who arrived after the Romans left.

Ah yes, but the SE tribes the Romans encountered were themselves fairly recent arrivals in our fair isle. Coming over here with their new fangled chariots.

Gryff

[servodude]

Are we complete suckers or just too nice?

Nope.

You forgot one of the biggest ones of all: they (specifically Lafayette) booted us out of our second-best colony and installed a local warlord as President.
Look where that led!

Lin-Manuel Miranda?

[didds]

Indeed. I went to a school where the school song (do they have such things nowadays?) was in Latin, but three quarters of the pupils did not study Latin. God knows what they made of it.

a bit like the Catholic masses (see what I did there) for hundreds of years.

When in Germany back in the late 80s a Scottish Catholic chum I worked with had his nan and mum visit. They went to mass of course, alebit naturally in the German language. Afterwards his nan said it was lovely, just like the old days as she hadn't understood a word of it!

[bungeejumper]

The idea that they somehow spoke proto-Welsh is just part of the pan Celtic-fringe victimhood myth. Julius Caesar regarded those he encountered in southern England as being related to the Belgae, a near Germanic tribe of northern Europe, and it is entirely possible that they spoke a sort of Proto English, not much different from the language spoken by the new invading royal princes from Denmark and Frisia, who arrived after the Romans left.

Every year - at least, in non-Covid times - Brittany plays host to a number of music and folklore festivals which attract participants from all over western Europe. The biggest of which is the Festival de Cornouaille at Quimper. Where my old folkie contacts used to say that the Welsh, Irish and Cornish speakers would discover a really very substantial language connection with the Basques of northern Spain.

Who, according to recent research, are genetically related to the Welsh! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Basques).

Studies based on the Y chromosome genetically relate the Basques with the Celtic Welsh, and Irish;[12] Stephen Oppenheimer from the University of Oxford says that the current inhabitants of the British Isles have their origin in the Basque refuge during the last Ice age. Oppenheimer reached this conclusion through the study of correspondences in the frequencies of genetic markers between various European regions.[13][14][15][16]

There's a bit of disagreement about how far back this goes, but AIUI the genetic traits that bind these people are essentially neanderthal. Worth remembering also that it was only 8,000 years ago that you could walk from Spain to Scotland. Having packed your thermal underwear, obviously. Fascinating stuff.

BJ

[UncleEbenezer]

Indeed. I went to a school where the school song (do they have such things nowadays?) was in Latin, but three quarters of the pupils did not study Latin. God knows what they made of it.

a bit like the Catholic masses (see what I did there) for hundreds of years.

When in Germany back in the late 80s a Scottish Catholic chum I worked with had his nan and mum visit. They went to mass of course, alebit naturally in the German language. Afterwards his nan said it was lovely, just like the old days as she hadn't understood a word of it!

I daresay if you're a practicing catholic you at least rote-learn those particular passages of Latin through regular exposure.

I learned a lot of liturgical latin that way. Not as a god-botherer, but as a choral singer, with a lot of masses and other latin texts in the regular repertoire.

[scrumpyjack]

My Latin is very rusty but it was interesting to hear it spoken on Netflix. In the Barbarians series the Roman soldiers speak Latin and subtitles are shown. It is a German production.

[didds]

I daresay if you're a practicing catholic you at least rote-learn those particular passages of Latin through regular exposure.

.

well - you can learn a lot of noises for sure.

It doesn't mean you actually understand them.

Like decades ago some chums were off to Germany - so one of them's brother taught him how to order beer in a german bar.

"Das Wetter ist heute windig".

Chum learned this by rote and churned it out in the firtst bar they went to. It didnt get them a beer shall i say, but did get them a smile and an enquiring look.

didds