Fight of the Century

[servodude]

I can't stand Alec Salmond...but I hate Nicola Sturgeon even more

I remember seeing Jimmy Krankie take on Widow Twankey at the Pavilion a long time ago
- about time they faced off again

-sd

[bungeejumper]

There's nothing new under the sun, is there? That Neil Oliver bloke has made a TV career out of portraying the last two millennia of Scottish history as one long, unending sequence of people beating the crap out of other people who could have been (and often had been) their trusted allies. All that these two have done is to replace the ancient claymores with writs and suchlike.

Paint 'em both blue and give 'em a choice of weapons, out on some craggy hilltop somewhere. My money's on wee nicky. Pass the popcorn, Snorvey.

BJ

[GrahamPlatt]

As I recall it's the big guy with the claymore that wins. (Liam Neeson as Rob Roy).

[bungeejumper]

Alec will be raging.

Love it. Took me a couple of minutes to spot it, though. So much blue, ya see.

BJ

[terminal7]

If only Mrs Merton was sitting in the Inquiry - she'd ask the right questions of Alic Saumon.

T7

[Sorcery]

I can't say Alex Salmond or Nicola Sturgeon are in my favourite politicians category. However Salmond does speak rather well. The BBC radio news clips of him speaking sound fairly convincing. He is calm and measured while Nicola challenges a jury's decision in a court of law!

More popcorn & beer if there is waitress service

[Nimrod103]

Am I alone in finding this case baffling? Is there a back story which perhaps Scots are aware of, but us English are completely in the dark about?

SUrely, in the interests of natural justice it needs the women who made the claims against Salmon which were not believed by the court, to be named, and all the relevant information to be put in the public domain so that people can make their own minds up.

[Sorcery]

I agree with Nimrod even though it sounds a bit like I agree with NIck Clegg.
I don't know whether I have the gist of it, I would rather hear from a Scot who also doesn't like either of them, or if not available then any Scot, (born there will do unlike Independence referendums)

[scotia]

Am I alone in finding this case baffling? Is there a back story which perhaps Scots are aware of, but us English are completely in the dark about?

SUrely, in the interests of natural justice it needs the women who made the claims against Salmon which were not believed by the court, to be named, and all the relevant information to be put in the public domain so that people can make their own minds up.

The Trial of Alex Salmond was widely reported (at least in Scotland). E.G Kirsty Wark presented "The Trial of Alex Salmond" on BBC 2.

Alex Salmond was cleared on all counts. One of the verdicts was "Not Proven" (which is an acquittal). Derogatory remarks concerning Alex Salmond by his defence lawyer which were overheard on a train, led to him (the defence lawyer) quitting as the Dean of the Faculty of Advocates.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/03/alex-salmond-lawyer-gordon-jackson-quits-head-scottish-legal-body

A man has been jailed for six months for tweeting the names of women who gave evidence against former first minister Alex Salmond at his trial. It was issued by judge Lady Dorrian, who presided over Mr Salmond's trial, and prohibited the identification of the complainers who gave evidence at the trial.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-56170459

[Nimrod103]

Am I alone in finding this case baffling? Is there a back story which perhaps Scots are aware of, but us English are completely in the dark about?

SUrely, in the interests of natural justice it needs the women who made the claims against Salmon which were not believed by the court, to be named, and all the relevant information to be put in the public domain so that people can make their own minds up.

The Trial of Alex Salmond was widely reported (at least in Scotland). E.G Kirsty Wark presented "The Trial of Alex Salmond" on BBC 2.

Alex Salmond was cleared on all counts. One of the verdicts was "Not Proven" (which is an acquittal). Derogatory remarks concerning Alex Salmond by his defence lawyer which were overheard on a train, led to him (the defence lawyer) quitting as the Dean of the Faculty of Advocates.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/03/alex-salmond-lawyer-gordon-jackson-quits-head-scottish-legal-body

A man has been jailed for six months for tweeting the names of women who gave evidence against former first minister Alex Salmond at his trial. It was issued by judge Lady Dorrian, who presided over Mr Salmond's trial, and prohibited the identification of the complainers who gave evidence at the trial.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-56170459

So we will never know the names of those whose unbelievable allegations were the basis of the case against Salmond. We will never know whether there was a conspiracy or who was involved. Courtesy of the legal system, everything will remain under cover, unless I suppose the Scottish police choose to investigate. Fraser Nelson in today's Daily Telegraph said of his time reporting in Edinburgh, that everyone knew everybody's business. I was wondering whether there were a lot of things which are known on the streets of Edinburgh, which don't get reported nationally.

[servodude]

I was wondering whether there were a lot of things which are known on the streets of Edinburgh, which don't get reported nationally.

like the fact salt'n'sauce is sh*te!

[Mike4]

One of the verdicts was "Not Proven" (which is an acquittal).

In our "civics' lessons at skool we were taught much the same.

But our teacher went on to explain the informal meaning of "Not Proven" is "we think you dunnit but not enough evidence to support a 'guilty' verdict".

[servodude]

One of the verdicts was "Not Proven" (which is an acquittal).

In our "civics' lessons at skool we were taught much the same.

But our teacher went on to explain the informal meaning of "Not Proven" is "we think you dunnit but the evidence doesn't support our opinion".

Indeed.

The "bastard verdict" is "technically" an acquittal but it leaves a bit of a bad smell

- sd

[Mike4]

One of the verdicts was "Not Proven" (which is an acquittal).

In our "civics' lessons at skool we were taught much the same.

But our teacher went on to explain the informal meaning of "Not Proven" is "we think you dunnit but the evidence doesn't support our opinion".

Indeed.

The "bastard verdict" is "technically" an acquittal but it leaves a bit of a bad smell

- sd

You may notice I just changed it, to more accurately reflect what we were taught. I think the point is, when 'Not Proven' is returned, they would have liked to return 'Guilty' based on their human assessment all considered, but felt an appeal would probably succeed.

[scotia]

So we will never know the names of those whose unbelievable allegations were the basis of the case against Salmond.

That's a strange statement. Do you think his defence lawyer (caught talking on the train) thought they were unbelievable? The burden of proof for a conviction in criminal law is onerous - beyond reasonable doubt - which is difficult to prove when the actions are behind closed doors. A majority of the jury found that standard of proof was not reached. A minority did. That does not make the allegations unbelievable.
And I can assure you, I have no need to know the names of the complainers - they appeared in open court, and their scrutiny was widely reported (at least in Scotland).

[Nimrod103]

So we will never know the names of those whose unbelievable allegations were the basis of the case against Salmond.

That's a strange statement. Do you think his defence lawyer (caught talking on the train) thought they were unbelievable? The burden of proof for a conviction in criminal law is onerous - beyond reasonable doubt - which is difficult to prove when the actions are behind closed doors. A majority of the jury found that standard of proof was not reached. A minority did. That does not make the allegations unbelievable.
And I can assure you, I have no need to know the names of the complainers - they appeared in open court, and their scrutiny was widely reported (at least in Scotland).

Well I used the phrase 'unbelievable allegations' because 6 or 7 women made allegations, and the court did not believe them. I admit there are issues of a not proven verdict and burden of proof etc, but the whole scenario has a smell of conspiracy about it. However, I doubt that Salmond can produce any evidence, unless he is going to pull a surprise out of the hat. I have to say I am pleased when our enemies fall out among themselves.

[Sorcery]

So we will never know the names of those whose unbelievable allegations were the basis of the case against Salmond.

That's a strange statement. Do you think his defence lawyer (caught talking on the train) thought they were unbelievable? The burden of proof for a conviction in criminal law is onerous - beyond reasonable doubt - which is difficult to prove when the actions are behind closed doors. A majority of the jury found that standard of proof was not reached. A minority did. That does not make the allegations unbelievable.
And I can assure you, I have no need to know the names of the complainers - they appeared in open court, and their scrutiny was widely reported (at least in Scotland).

Thanks for your helpful and neutral comments on "the fight of the century".
I was especially interested in a non-neutral wide ranging look at the balance of Scottish opinion. Not your fault scotia, you did a very balanced factual description of the events leading up to today and under I assume a non-political remit, this being a virtual pub. I think I found an article that provides what I was looking for here :
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/191 ... re/?ref=ar
As usual it's the readers comments that I find are most informative.

[stewamax]

The "bastard verdict" is "technically" an acquittal but it leaves a bit of a bad smell

A Salmond + A Sturgeon => stinking fish

[Nimrod103]

I have a feeling that Sturgeon may still get off the hook. I suspect she will try to brazen it all out, with the help of SNP biased media and SNP loaded committees.

[UncleEbenezer]

I have a feeling that Sturgeon may still get off the hook. I suspect she will try to brazen it all out, with the help of SNP biased media and SNP loaded committees.

I won't prejudge the outcome, but I think there's plenty of media out for her blood. Same comment of course applies to other politicians, as soon as we take them seriously.

I hope the SNP thrives. Not for Scotland, but for Britain. With Labour a sick joke and the libdems wiped out (and even the Tories purged of any diversity of thought[1]) the SNP has been the nearest thing to a credible opposition in recent years.

As for the actions against Salmond, that's inevitable in a witch-hunt atmosphere.

[1] Remember when "they" called Ted Heath leader of the Opposition under Thatcher, last time Labour was missing for an extended period? That only worked because Thatcher accepted differences of opinion.