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Cars - a genuine appeal

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Lootman
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Re: Cars - a genuine appeal

#446288

Postby Lootman » September 29th, 2021, 2:16 pm

Dod101 wrote: my daughter's family are about to have four cars between four of them. That is actually ridiculous

If there are four drivers in the household and they live in a rural location, then I can see how they would need four vehicles, depending on their schedules. For a while we had three vehicles and we live in London, after my eldest son passed his driving test. We still have two.

Neither is a SUV, just for the record, although I can see why people like them. They are safer, at least for the people in them. :D

Dod101
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Re: Cars - a genuine appeal

#446324

Postby Dod101 » September 29th, 2021, 3:42 pm

Hallucigenia wrote:
BobbyD wrote:Taller cars are easier for rounder drivers to get in and out of, but they aren't going to say that...


Not so much rounder, but dodgy backs have been the main reason for two people I know going for a car that was higher off the ground. With an ageing, more desk-bound population, there will be more dodgy backs.

Another argument is the number of speed bumps everywhere - visiting friends in SE London used to be a nightmare in my old car which was low to the ground and with a firm suspension. SUVs handle speed bumps much more comfortably.

The snow argument doesn't wash - in snow the last thing you want is a heavy vehicle with a high centre-of-gravity. That's why Volvo (who know a bit about driving in snow) resisted making a SUV for so long until Ford forced them to build what the market thought it wanted. If you're serious about driving in snow, you want a low, light vehicle with the proper tyres.


Well I know a fair bit about driving in snow living where I do. A low light vehicle I do not know much about, but a low heavy one I do and the first thing to say is that it sat on my drive for about 2 1/2 weeks a few winters ago because it could not clear the depth of snow on my road. My Q5s (I am on my third) have no difficulty in similar snow even without winter tyres. I do not have to go very far, about a couple of miles to reach a quite well salted highway but it is getting there that is my problem.

Dod

AleisterCrowley
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Re: Cars - a genuine appeal

#446332

Postby AleisterCrowley » September 29th, 2021, 4:05 pm

Hallucigenia wrote:
BobbyD wrote:Taller cars are easier for rounder drivers to get in and out of, but they aren't going to say that...


....

The snow argument doesn't wash - in snow the last thing you want is a heavy vehicle with a high centre-of-gravity. That's why Volvo (who know a bit about driving in snow) resisted making a SUV for so long until Ford forced them to build what the market thought it wanted. If you're serious about driving in snow, you want a low, light vehicle with the proper tyres.


And when was the last time we had proper snow in the UK ? Or at least the south east where SUVs seem to be endemic.
We did have a snowfall here (w Berks) a few years back but honestly - it resulted in damp roads on the main routes. Perhaps it built up on the minor routes out around the villages, but do you really need an SUV to deal with on average one day a year with a bit of snow??
And as noted SUVs aren't much good in snow anyway.

Re safety, it's covered here;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism ... y_vehicles

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Re: Cars - a genuine appeal

#446333

Postby UncleEbenezer » September 29th, 2021, 4:14 pm

AleisterCrowley wrote:And when was the last time we had proper snow in the UK ?


We had two consecutive winters with at least some real snow. 2009-11.

Dod101
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Re: Cars - a genuine appeal

#446335

Postby Dod101 » September 29th, 2021, 4:19 pm

AleisterCrowley wrote:
Hallucigenia wrote:
BobbyD wrote:Taller cars are easier for rounder drivers to get in and out of, but they aren't going to say that...


....

The snow argument doesn't wash - in snow the last thing you want is a heavy vehicle with a high centre-of-gravity. That's why Volvo (who know a bit about driving in snow) resisted making a SUV for so long until Ford forced them to build what the market thought it wanted. If you're serious about driving in snow, you want a low, light vehicle with the proper tyres.


And when was the last time we had proper snow in the UK ? Or at least the south east where SUVs seem to be endemic.
We did have a snowfall here (w Berks) a few years back but honestly - it resulted in damp roads on the main routes. Perhaps it built up on the minor routes out around the villages, but do you really need an SUV to deal with on average one day a year with a bit of snow??
And as noted SUVs aren't much good in snow anyway.

Re safety, it's covered here;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism ... y_vehicles


We had proper snow in February this year, that is only about 7/8 months ago. I actually had snow on the ground in my garden from 29 December until 14/15 February when it suddenly went. By early February I had about 10 inches, maybe a bit more at one point. I call that proper snow and I do not live on a mountain pass. My SUV with 4WD is perfectly good in snow, but I have it partly for snow but also because it has a very secure feel to it and great visibility.

Dod

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Re: Cars - a genuine appeal

#446338

Postby Dod101 » September 29th, 2021, 4:22 pm

Lootman wrote:
Dod101 wrote: my daughter's family are about to have four cars between four of them. That is actually ridiculous

If there are four drivers in the household and they live in a rural location, then I can see how they would need four vehicles, depending on their schedules. For a while we had three vehicles and we live in London, after my eldest son passed his driving test. We still have two.

Neither is a SUV, just for the record, although I can see why people like them. They are safer, at least for the people in them. :D


All four are drivers and I am not complaining because it is none of my business and one of the drivers is actually at University anyway, and what is more the two young ones each bought their cars for cash largely using some of the profits from Scottish Mortgage!

Dod

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Re: Cars - a genuine appeal

#446343

Postby tjh290633 » September 29th, 2021, 4:37 pm

Dod101 wrote:Well I know a fair bit about driving in snow living where I do. A low light vehicle I do not know much about, but a low heavy one I do and the first thing to say is that it sat on my drive for about 2 1/2 weeks a few winters ago because it could not clear the depth of snow on my road. My Q5s (I am on my third) have no difficulty in similar snow even without winter tyres. I do not have to go very far, about a couple of miles to reach a quite well salted highway but it is getting there that is my problem.

Dod

Back in 1958 I was working in Sheffield and the onset of snow meant that parking on a main road and bus route outside my digs was verboten. Consequently we all parked round the corner in a cul-de-sac. We had about 8 inches of snow overnight and I had a Volkswagen Beetle at the time. The depth of snow was such that it built up under the car and lost traction. Fortunately our storeman had produced a coke shovel the day before and said "You might need this". About 10 minutes was all it took to clear a way to the main road and we were away. Incidentally the VW was excellent in snow, having the weight of the engine over the driven wheels.

In 1961-63 we had moved to the Peak District and I never missed a day in those two winters getting into Sheffield. The one day when I had to go another way was when an Austin 1100 couldn't cope with the build-up of snow under the car on Froggatt Edge, so we had to go round via Bamford. Derbyshire CC stationed a front end loader on a bend at the top of Froggatt Edge, clearing snow blown off the fields 24/7. They were used to it.

TJH

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Re: Cars - a genuine appeal

#446369

Postby Clitheroekid » September 29th, 2021, 6:02 pm

I think I may be the only one to say that I own a car (well two, actually) largely because I actually enjoy driving.

One of them is a Merc convertible, and for me there are few more pleasurable experiences than driving it on good roads through great scenery in the sunshine, or on a summer's evening, with the scent of summer heavy in the air. It's a powerful car, and although I never really drive it to its full potential (which significantly exceeds mine!) I do enjoy driving it quickly on the odd occasion.

One of the many advantages of living and working in rural Lancashire is that the roads are not clogged with traffic, and it's perfectly possible to drive for miles along really good roads without any traffic issues at all.

My other car is a Fiat Panda 4x4 with winter tyres, and it's an absolute hoot driving it in the snow. It has amazing traction, and I actively seek out uncleared roads just for the pleasure of driving on them. I regularly drive past great wallowing behemoths - Range Rovers, X5's and their like - with a smug expression, as their drivers sit glumly spinning their summer tyres and wondering why their 4WD badge and a cheque for £70k hasn't given them their expected snow capability.

And the total flexibility of cars is a huge part of their appeal. Many's the time that driving from A to B I've seen a sign pointing to Bumpkin Magna or some such, and diverted on a whim to go and have a look round. You can't do that on a bus, and although I suppose it'd be technically possible in a taxi it would rather take the edge off a casual saunter round the village and perhaps a pint in the village pub (though sadly that's a rarity nowadays) if you had the image of the taxi meter ticking up as you sauntered / supped.

I should say that I'm also a huge fan of public transport, and I regularly use - and enjoy using - trains and (though much less frequently) buses. But although they're fine from going from one large town to another they're hopeless for travel from one small town to another, which involves horribly complicated route and timing calculations. In a car you just get in and go wherever you want.

I used to live in London, and I completely agree that a car is not only unnecessary there but an actual liability. The public transport is fantastic, and when I wanted a car I just hired one. I'd probably be the same if I lived there now, but to misquote L P Hartley, London is a different country; they do things differently there.

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Re: Cars - a genuine appeal

#446396

Postby AWOL » September 29th, 2021, 7:21 pm

AleisterCrowley wrote:Going slightly off topic (but not much) one thing I've noticed walking around my (large) west Berks village is how BIG a lot of the cars are these days.
I think they are generally known as 'SUVs' - great hulking lumps of steel. I've seen driveways with two of the damn things (His 'n' Hers?!)
What excuse is there for buying them if you're not a farmer/vet etc? Why do you need 4WD if you never leave the road? Is it just 'conspicuous consumption' /keeping up with the neighbours?
(Actually , farmers back home seem to rely on ancient Land Rovers and battered Toyota pick ups)


I read a few months ago that if trends continue as they are the carbon benefit of the move to electric vehicles will be entirely offset by the move to SUVs and the greater energy requirements of these mobile brick outhouses

The motor industry is very excited about market enthusiasm for electric SUVs sadly! People can do the wrong thing while feeling they are doing the right thing.

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Re: Cars - a genuine appeal

#446407

Postby 88V8 » September 29th, 2021, 7:56 pm

We have a Land Rover. A 74 Lightweight.
It has a V8 and auto box, so I suppose I could call it an SUV.

It's less than 12' long and 5' wide.

I can see no excuse for the grotesque size and weight of modern cars.

V8

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Re: Cars - a genuine appeal

#446414

Postby Lootman » September 29th, 2021, 8:17 pm

88V8 wrote:I can see no excuse for the grotesque size and weight of modern cars.

It is simply a matter of choice. If people want SUVs then they should have them. If you don't like them then don't buy one.

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Re: Cars - a genuine appeal

#446419

Postby AleisterCrowley » September 29th, 2021, 8:25 pm

Lootman wrote:
88V8 wrote:I can see no excuse for the grotesque size and weight of modern cars.

It is simply a matter of choice. If people want SUVs then they should have them. If you don't like them then don't buy one.

Well, I've got the choice to , for example, buy up all the fresh food in my local Sainsbury's and leave it to rot in my garden
My money my choice?
If people choose to buy huge unnecessary metal beasts to take the kids to school and do the Waitrose shop there is a knock on effect on the rest of the people on the planet. They may have the money to make that choice, but ultimately it's the wrong choice for everyone even if it's not illegal...

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Re: Cars - a genuine appeal

#446422

Postby pje16 » September 29th, 2021, 8:31 pm

Everything in life is a personal choice
unless you are a lemming :lol:

Lootman
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Re: Cars - a genuine appeal

#446427

Postby Lootman » September 29th, 2021, 8:55 pm

AleisterCrowley wrote:
Lootman wrote:
88V8 wrote:I can see no excuse for the grotesque size and weight of modern cars.

It is simply a matter of choice. If people want SUVs then they should have them. If you don't like them then don't buy one.

Well, I've got the choice to , for example, buy up all the fresh food in my local Sainsbury's and leave it to rot in my garden
My money my choice?

If people choose to buy huge unnecessary metal beasts to take the kids to school and do the Waitrose shop there is a knock on effect on the rest of the people on the planet. They may have the money to make that choice, but ultimately it's the wrong choice for everyone even if it's not illegal...

You are entitled to the view that people should not want these vehicles. I am not sure you are entitled to the view that people should be prevented from buying such vehicles. The difference is freedom.

I will never own a SUV but would not want to live in a nation or world where they were banned.

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Re: Cars - a genuine appeal

#446428

Postby AleisterCrowley » September 29th, 2021, 9:08 pm

I don't want them 'banned' - possibly heavily taxed....

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Re: Cars - a genuine appeal

#446429

Postby Dod101 » September 29th, 2021, 9:11 pm

AleisterCrowley wrote:I don't want them 'banned' - possibly heavily taxed....


They are heavily taxed.

Dod

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Re: Cars - a genuine appeal

#446430

Postby AleisterCrowley » September 29th, 2021, 9:13 pm

Obviously not heavily enough, judging by the tanks sitting in driveways around these parts...

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Re: Cars - a genuine appeal

#446436

Postby UncleEbenezer » September 29th, 2021, 9:35 pm

Lootman wrote:
88V8 wrote:I can see no excuse for the grotesque size and weight of modern cars.

It is simply a matter of choice. If people want SUVs then they should have them. If you don't like them then don't buy one.


and in another thread where I got drawn in to arguing against an absolutist position,

Lootman wrote:So it's all OK then? Totally justified? As long as you think you are right about something then that entitles you to be inconsiderate, dangerous or worse?

I believe that is what terrorists think as well.

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Re: Cars - a genuine appeal

#446442

Postby Lootman » September 29th, 2021, 10:06 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
Lootman wrote:
88V8 wrote:I can see no excuse for the grotesque size and weight of modern cars.

It is simply a matter of choice. If people want SUVs then they should have them. If you don't like them then don't buy one.

and in another thread where I got drawn in to arguing against an absolutist position,
Lootman wrote:So it's all OK then? Totally justified? As long as you think you are right about something then that entitles you to be inconsiderate, dangerous or worse?

I believe that is what terrorists think as well.

No, you have been consistent. You think aggression and terrorism is justified if you happen to think that you are right AND you support a view that people should be barred from buying a vehicle that they like.

My preference is for freedom, liberty, choice and non-aggression.

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Re: Cars - a genuine appeal

#446453

Postby AleisterCrowley » September 29th, 2021, 11:20 pm

Well that escalated quickly :)


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