PO Scandal

[UncleEbenezer]

Post Office and Fujitsu to face inquiry over Horizon scandal

Well, fancy that. After ample time for the guilty to have moved on.

Perhaps they'll start with the investigations that have already happened, such as https://www.private-eye.co.uk/special-r ... n-the-post (and indeed some of the BBC's work).

[redsturgeon]

I remember listening to the BBC podcasts on this scandal. It beggars belief how those in positions of power think absolutely nothing of destroying peoples lives with no sense of remorse or even an apology let alone any real sanction like a criminal prosecution.

John

[staffordian]

Er... No. But rest assured that lessons will be learnt.

Not quite. "Lessons will be learnt" is an obligatory stock phrase used in situations like this.
Whether lessons will actually be learnt in practice is questionable.
doolally

That's precisely what I read into Redmire's post, though some sort of emoticon might have emphasised what I took to be either irony or exasperation

[Dod101]

Er... No. But rest assured that lessons will be learnt.

Not quite. "Lessons will be learnt" is an obligatory stock phrase used in situations like this.
Whether lessons will actually be learnt in practice is questionable.
doolally

That's precisely what I read into Redmire's post, though some sort of emoticon might have emphasised what I took to be either irony or exasperation

The other worrying thing is that these enquiries can take years.

Lessons will be learnt? What lessons will be learnt? How to interpret evidence correctly? How to prosecute dishonest bosses?

The whole thing is disgusting and worse.

Dod

[didds]

The whole thing is disgusting and worse.

Dod

And (with admittedly no evidence whatsoever etc) smacks of people in very high places covering up their own guilt

[XFool]

Er... No. But rest assured that lessons will be learnt.

Not quite. "Lessons will be learnt" is an obligatory stock phrase used in situations like this.
Whether lessons will actually be learnt in practice is questionable.
doolally

That's precisely what I read into Redmire's post, though some sort of emoticon might have emphasised what I took to be either irony or exasperation

Indeed, that is how I read it. Also I thought, if I had written that I would have made use of the 'ironic' quotes: ...rest assured that "lessons will be learnt".

I understand everyone is very angry about all this and want culprits to punish, however...

Personally, I wonder if something like this can be simply explained by a few 'guilty men'. I speculated about some kind of general explanation of how this situation might have come about (possibly on another thread on this topic?) - very likely wrongly. Also, I have just finished reading "Bad Blood - Secrets and Lies in a Silicon Valley Startup" about the Theranos scandal in the US.

In other words, is it not a case of corporate failure and what contributes (may be individuals) to such failures? The best lessons may be to learn about this. But this may be complex, people will expect and want 'simple' explanations.

[staffordian]

Er... No. But rest assured that lessons will be learnt.

Not quite. "Lessons will be learnt" is an obligatory stock phrase used in situations like this.
Whether lessons will actually be learnt in practice is questionable.
doolally

That's precisely what I read into Redmire's post, though some sort of emoticon might have emphasised what I took to be either irony or exasperation

Indeed, that is how I read it. Also I thought, if I had written that I would have made use of the 'ironic' quotes: ...rest assured that "lessons will be learnt".

I understand everyone is very angry about all this and want culprits to punish, however...

Personally, I wonder if something like this can be simply explained by a few 'guilty men'. I speculated about some kind of general explanation of how this situation might have come about (possibly on another thread on this topic?) - very likely wrongly. Also, I have just finished reading "Bad Blood - Secrets and Lies in a Silicon Valley Startup" about the Theranos scandal in the US.

In other words, is it not a case of corporate failure and what contributes (may be individuals) to such failures? The best lessons may be to learn about this. But this may be complex, people will expect and want 'simple' explanations.

I suspect the bugs and errors within the system may well have been complex, but to me, there is one overriding issue, for which individuals must certainly be responsible.

That is the decision(s) made to blame, financially penalise and prosecute individuals when it was abundantly clear that there were serious problems with the system.

Now if those who made these decisions were somehow mislead, and assured that the system was faultless, then those who made those assertions should be held responsible.

I find it impossible to believe that everything was innocently done. Someone, somewhere IMHO made an executive decision to prioritise implementation of the Horizon system above everything else. That person must be morally if not legally guilty and should be held to account.

[swill453]

The National Federation of Sub-Postmasters must shoulder some of the blame. They were supposed to represent their members but had a very cosy relationship with the Post Office. Its general secretary in 2015 said Horizon had been "fantastically robust... from day one".
https://www.private-eye.co.uk/special-r ... n-the-post

One member who appealed to them for help was simply refunded his membership fees and sent on his way.
https://committees.parliament.uk/writte ... /5207/pdf/

Scott.

[Redmires]

Er... No. But rest assured that lessons will be learnt.

Not quite. "Lessons will be learnt" is an obligatory stock phrase used in situations like this.
Whether lessons will actually be learnt in practice is questionable.
doolally

That's precisely what I read into Redmire's post, though some sort of emoticon might have emphasised what I took to be either irony or exasperation

Indeed, that is how I read it. Also I thought, if I had written that I would have made use of the 'ironic' quotes: ...rest assured that "lessons will be learnt".

I understand everyone is very angry about all this and want culprits to punish, however...

Personally, I wonder if something like this can be simply explained by a few 'guilty men'. I speculated about some kind of general explanation of how this situation might have come about (possibly on another thread on this topic?) - very likely wrongly. Also, I have just finished reading "Bad Blood - Secrets and Lies in a Silicon Valley Startup" about the Theranos scandal in the US.

In other words, is it not a case of corporate failure and what contributes (may be individuals) to such failures? The best lessons may be to learn about this. But this may be complex, people will expect and want 'simple' explanations.

PS.

Although I thought it was bl33din' obvious

[XFool]

PS.

Although I thought it was bl33din' obvious

Ah! Well, you are obviously the man to explain it all to us in exquisite detail.

Please go ahead.

[GoSeigen]

PS.

Although I thought it was bl33din' obvious

Ah! Well, you are obviously the man to explain it all to us in exquisite detail.

Please go ahead.

He thought it was bleeding obvious that he was being ironic. It was certainly obvious to me...

GS

[XFool]

PS.

Although I thought it was bl33din' obvious

Ah! Well, you are obviously the man to explain it all to us in exquisite detail.

Please go ahead.

He thought it was bleeding obvious that he was being ironic. It was certainly obvious to me...

i.e. He thought it was "bl33din' obvious" that it wasn't bleeding obvious?

Bleeding obvious when you think about it! I think...

[doolally]

Er... No. But rest assured that lessons will be learnt.

Not quite. "Lessons will be learnt" is an obligatory stock phrase used in situations like this.
Whether lessons will actually be learnt in practice is questionable.
doolally

That's precisely what I read into Redmire's post, though some sort of emoticon might have emphasised what I took to be either irony or exasperation

Indeed, that is how I read it. Also I thought, if I had written that I would have made use of the 'ironic' quotes: ...rest assured that "lessons will be learnt".

I understand everyone is very angry about all this and want culprits to punish, however...

Personally, I wonder if something like this can be simply explained by a few 'guilty men'. I speculated about some kind of general explanation of how this situation might have come about (possibly on another thread on this topic?) - very likely wrongly. Also, I have just finished reading "Bad Blood - Secrets and Lies in a Silicon Valley Startup" about the Theranos scandal in the US.

In other words, is it not a case of corporate failure and what contributes (may be individuals) to such failures? The best lessons may be to learn about this. But this may be complex, people will expect and want 'simple' explanations.

PS.

Although I thought it was bl33din' obvious

Apologies for being a doolally old duffer
Emoticons do help though, social media doesn't allow us any other visual clues or insights to other's personalities
doolally ( https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dic ... h/doolally )

[Dod101]

The National Federation of Sub-Postmasters must shoulder some of the blame. They were supposed to represent their members but had a very cosy relationship with the Post Office. Its general secretary in 2015 said Horizon had been "fantastically robust... from day one".
https://www.private-eye.co.uk/special-r ... n-the-post

One member who appealed to them for help was simply refunded his membership fees and sent on his way.
https://committees.parliament.uk/writte ... /5207/pdf/

Scott.

I had not heard that before. If that is so then surely they must have a role to play, but I do not know what they are for anyway. They sound as if they are supposed to represent the sub postmasters?

Dod

[XFool]

The National Federation of Sub-Postmasters must shoulder some of the blame. They were supposed to represent their members but had a very cosy relationship with the Post Office. Its general secretary in 2015 said Horizon had been "fantastically robust... from day one".
https://www.private-eye.co.uk/special-r ... n-the-post

One member who appealed to them for help was simply refunded his membership fees and sent on his way.
https://committees.parliament.uk/writte ... /5207/pdf/

I had not heard that before. If that is so then surely they must have a role to play, but I do not know what they are for anyway. They sound as if they are supposed to represent the sub postmasters?

I believe the over close relationship between the Federation and the Post Office was mentioned in the original BBC radio documentary series on this matter.

The Great Post Office Trial
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000jfyv

[cinelli]

The public inquiry has resumed and is now in its fourth week. Witnesses are managers and technical people from ICL, Fujitsu and the Post Office. These sessions may be seen on YouTube. The timetable is here: https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/timetables but it appears that the three key participants in the parliamentary select committee of 3 February 2015

Paula Vennells then CEO Post Office
Angela van den Bogerd, then Head of Partnerships, Post Office
Ian Henderson, forensic computing expert, Advanced Forensics (Second Sight Ltd)

are not listed to attend.

Cinelli

[pje16]

Paula Vennells then CEO Post Office
Angela van den Bogerd, then Head of Partnerships, Post Office
Ian Henderson, forensic computing expert, Advanced Forensics (Second Sight Ltd)

More like the guilty than just key participants
(diplomacy is not my strong point)

[XFool]

Paula Vennells then CEO Post Office
Angela van den Bogerd, then Head of Partnerships, Post Office
Ian Henderson, forensic computing expert, Advanced Forensics (Second Sight Ltd)

More like the guilty than just key participants

Are you sure?

I am not immediately familiar with Ian Henderson of Second Sight Ltd, but I don't see how they are "guilty".

https://www.postofficetrial.com/2019/12/second-sights-ron-warmington-breaks-his.html

https://www.postofficetrial.com/search?q=ian+henderson&max-results=20

[swill453]

The public inquiry has resumed and is now in its fourth week. Witnesses are managers and technical people from ICL, Fujitsu and the Post Office. These sessions may be seen on YouTube. The timetable is here: https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/timetables but it appears that the three key participants in the parliamentary select committee of 3 February 2015

Paula Vennells then CEO Post Office
Angela van den Bogerd, then Head of Partnerships, Post Office
Ian Henderson, forensic computing expert, Advanced Forensics (Second Sight Ltd)

Paula Vennells is on the Core Participants list linked to from that page.

Scott.

[XFool]

Ian Henderson is also mentioned in the inquiry at a couple of points.

https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/hearings/public-hearing-session-preliminary-hearing-list-issues

https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/statement-chair-regarding-post-office-limited-non-disclosure-agreements-and-second-sight