Just a Cock Stride

[Clitheroekid]

I was in best Daily Mail rant mode having read the article aboiut the Bulgarian benefit fraudsters - https://news.sky.com/story/five-members ... d-13111651

But my already quivering dander was raised to breaking point when I read the smug and complacent pronouncement of Mel Stride, the Work and Pensions Minister:

"Building on our success in preventing £18bn going into the wrong hands in 2022/23, these convictions underline our commitment to protecting taxpayers' money. It is only right and fair that we bring those stealing from the public purse to justice."

So why is the system for which he's responsible so utterly useless that it allowed these thieves to steal £50m so incredibly easily? I would guarantee that for every one who gets caught there are a hundred more who don't.

I often despair at the ridiculous mazes that my clients are forced to navigate in order to satisfy third parties of our identity, not just once, but time after time after time, whenever they want to enter into a new transaction, yet people like this just drive a coach and horses through the system.

Although I've always opposed the idea of compulsory ID cards I've gradually been coming round to the idea that they might be a good thing after all, not just to help combat fraud, but to enable us to establish our bona fides without all the absurd rigmarole that applies at present.

And as these fraudsters will now presumably steal even more cash from us in the form of paying for their custody for (hopefully) the next few years that raises another point - why should physically healthy individuals like this not be made to fill potholes? As nobody else is doing the repairs it's not like they'd be stealing someone's job. And it'd be jolly useful work, well within their capabilities, and far better for both them and us than locking them up in a jail cell.

Time for a little lie down!

[Lootman]

And as these fraudsters will now presumably steal even more cash from us in the form of paying for their custody for (hopefully) the next few years that raises another point - why should physically healthy individuals like this not be made to fill potholes? As nobody else is doing the repairs it's not like they'd be stealing someone's job. And it'd be jolly useful work, well within their capabilities, and far better for both them and us than locking them up in a jail cell.

Guests of the HM prison service are often put into work assignments. For the more trusted ones and those close to release that can involve awaydays. As a kid I lived quite close to a prison and it was not unusual to see groups of inmates doing useful work in my neighbourhood. Although my dad would not let me talk to them.

Your dander quivers? Mine is pronounced but it never oscillates.

[y0rkiebar]

Was there any indication of how much, if any, of the proceeds were recovered by the authorities ?

[Beerpig]

I quite concur with CK regarding the string of hoops and fences we lawyers have to go through to be seen to satisfy our clients' id's. We need a scan of a driving license and a recent utility invoice every time we open a file and then there are meticulous rules for accepting and paying out funds- and woe betide us if we accidently overlook something- massive penalties.
And yet, as CK says, organised gangs of immigrants fleece the system with little trouble at all.
What Mel Stride did not say is who laundered this money? How was it distributed? Where were the banks who have a duty to report suspicious activity?
Its an electioneering 'crow' by Stride masking the real problem is his investigations department are hopelessly underfunded and don't have the teeth or funds to prevent the fraud.

There was another electioneering crow yesterday about the government bringing in the specific offence of assaulting a shopkeeper.
The intention is the general public think 'yes, what a good idea' - but sentencing guidelines in the courts already provide for enhanced sentences for such crimes. The real problem is that the underfunded police do not have the inclination or resources to deal with serial shoplifters (many drug alcohol addicts) who in the knowledge nothing is going to be done if they are caught become bolder. There were no security staff on the doors of shops when I was a kid- in those days, if you were caught stealing from anyone, you went to court and if you continued stealing, you went away.

[bungeejumper]

Although I've always opposed the idea of compulsory ID cards I've gradually been coming round to the idea that they might be a good thing after all, not just to help combat fraud, but to enable us to establish our bona fides without all the absurd rigmarole that applies at present.

All right, somebody's got to ask. Who's going to guarantee that the ID cards aren't forgeries?

BJ

[GoSeigen]

There were no security staff on the doors of shops when I was a kid- in those days, if you were caught stealing from anyone, you went to court and if you continued stealing, you went away.

Rose tinted glasses at all? Good grief.


I do family history and in the 1920s our family was in and out of prison more times than you could count. Mostly fraud but a bunch of other stuff too.

If we are saying the old days was better exactly how old are we?

Oh they were immigrants by the way. Which era was it again that didn't have any immigration?


The other half of the family was gassed which is just as well because they certainly committed no more crimes after that.

GS

[Gerry557]

I was quite surprised at a bit on the Jeremy Vine TV programme. It was about pensions rising more than benefits.

I expected lots of moans about "low" benefits. Strangely a chap cam on and said he was quite happy with his. He got £500 per week. There were a few along similar lines including one who "mentioned" rather than complained she had to pay £550 on her mortgage out of hers.

There was a sense that mental illness allowed you to do well on the system and highlighted figures in the growth of people claiming this.

Maybe I should sign on.

[DrFfybes]

And as these fraudsters will now presumably steal even more cash from us in the form of paying for their custody for (hopefully) the next few years that raises another point - why should physically healthy individuals like this not be made to fill potholes? As nobody else is doing the repairs it's not like they'd be stealing someone's job. And it'd be jolly useful work, well within their capabilities, and far better for both them and us than locking them up in a jail cell.

I agree with what you say, but as for the last point, it is called Community Payback IIRC. In theory they get motivation, learn new skills, and generally imrpove their outlook on life, and the Country gets things done on the cheap.

In reality you have to transport them to site, equip them with PPE, train them for H&S, supervise them with a trained operative and a qualified 'offender supervisor' (or whatever the term is), provide them the quipment to do the work, and then as they don't really want to be there they tend to shuffle aimlessly around stabbing randomly at the litter they're supposed to be collecting or cutting aimlessly at the greenery they should trim.

So you get a alf assed job at pretty much the same cost to the Council as sending a couple of employees out.

Paul

[Beerpig]

There were no security staff on the doors of shops when I was a kid- in those days, if you were caught stealing from anyone, you went to court and if you continued stealing, you went away.

Rose tinted glasses at all? Good grief.


I do family history and in the 1920s our family was in and out of prison more times than you could count. Mostly fraud but a bunch of other stuff too.

If we are saying the old days was better exactly how old are we?

Oh they were immigrants by the way. Which era was it again that didn't have any immigration?


The other half of the family was gassed which is just as well because they certainly committed no more crimes after that.

GS

Not rose tinted glasses. The 1920s were very different.
If you go back 100 years before 1920 there were public executions.
The point I am making is that 50 years ago, when I was a kid, society was shaped by two world wars and no one took any S*** from anyone.
There are security staff on convenience store entrances to stop people from stealing ie to enforce the law - because the police will not do this.

[Nimrod103]

And as these fraudsters will now presumably steal even more cash from us in the form of paying for their custody for (hopefully) the next few years that raises another point - why should physically healthy individuals like this not be made to fill potholes? As nobody else is doing the repairs it's not like they'd be stealing someone's job. And it'd be jolly useful work, well within their capabilities, and far better for both them and us than locking them up in a jail cell.

I agree with what you say, but as for the last point, it is called Community Payback IIRC. In theory they get motivation, learn new skills, and generally imrpove their outlook on life, and the Country gets things done on the cheap.

In reality you have to transport them to site, equip them with PPE, train them for H&S, supervise them with a trained operative and a qualified 'offender supervisor' (or whatever the term is), provide them the quipment to do the work, and then as they don't really want to be there they tend to shuffle aimlessly around stabbing randomly at the litter they're supposed to be collecting or cutting aimlessly at the greenery they should trim.

So you get a alf assed job at pretty much the same cost to the Council as sending a couple of employees out.

Paul

I agree with this POV. But what is prison there to do? Some will be amenable to education and reform. For those who won't reform, maybe a different prison for second and subsequent offenders, where hard labour is adminstered on the premises. Stone breaking and treadmills come to mind.

[the0ni0nking]

In reality you have to transport them to site, equip them with PPE, train them for H&S, supervise them with a trained operative and a qualified 'offender supervisor' (or whatever the term is), provide them the quipment to do the work, and then as they don't really want to be there they tend to shuffle aimlessly around stabbing randomly at the litter they're supposed to be collecting or cutting aimlessly at the greenery they should trim.

So you get a alf assed job at pretty much the same cost to the Council as sending a couple of employees out.

Paul

When you break the law and are convicted, you should expect to lose some of your rights - and not just freedom.

Time to bring out the chain gangs.

I could soon sort out an increased number of prison spaces by making life much less convenient for them.

Time to bring out the Gulag.

[DrFfybes]

When you break the law and are convicted, you should expect to lose some of your rights - and not just freedom.

Time to bring out the chain gangs.

I could soon sort out an increased number of prison spaces by making life much less convenient for them.

Time to bring out the Gulag.

From what I've observed of the ones around here, taking their phones off them would be a start

[Rhyd6]

As someone who joined the DWP in 1959 when it was the Ministry of Labour and National Service I can tell you exactly what is wrong. Politicians interferring to make things "better". Gordon Brown decreed that it was humiliating for people to have to queue up every week to collect their unemployment benefit money. This meant that staff got to know everyone and also because all claims were worked out manually and checked thoroughly mistakes were seldom made. Gordon Brown decreed that claimants should be paid by giro which would be cashed at local post offices etc. Then another politician decided that doing it all by computer was the way to go and so you rarely got to know people and develop a nose for those who were on the fiddle.
I was working in Inland Revenue when self assessment was introduced, if you think it's easy to fiddle UB just wait until someone does an in depth analysis of money fiddled through this system. To make matters worse, a target system was introduced for investigations. Two colleagues and I worked for over two years to nail a complex case and recovered a huge amount of money but because we'd spent most of our time on this complex case we didn't hit our targets of X number of cases investigated and didn't receive a bonus whilst our colleagues who went for hairdressers, taxi drivers etc. hit their numbers and enjoyed a bonus. Lesson learned, ignore big, complex cases concentrate on quantity not quality.

R6

[kempiejon]

queue up every week to collect their unemployment benefit money. This meant that staff got to know everyone and also because all claims were worked out manually and checked thoroughly mistakes were seldom made. Gordon Brown decreed that claimants should be paid by giro which would be cashed at local post offices etc. Then another politician decided that doing it all by computer was the way to go and so you rarely got to know people and develop a nose for those who were on the fiddle.

I go in every 2 weeks, I have to wait until my work coach is free. there's always about half a dozen of us, in a queue if you will but we have seats in an area. Then there's a 20 minute face to face where I have to evidence my efforts in the previous 2 weeks before my claim is confirmed. Miss my appointment or fail to provide sufficient evidence and there's a penalty, loss of benefit not just for that period but a further sanction. I got the impressions this is not specific to my circumstances. I did start my claim online, I do get paid by BACS a couple of days after I sign on so it is all by computer and I don't have to meet someone to collect my money but I have to attend, meet a person in real life, engage with the process and show I'm a legitimate claimant. Sure I could probably work out how to fiddle the system. Perhaps those working at the claimant interaction levels have lost the nose training? I've seen Boys from the Black Stuff where the fiddle was obvious but successful.

[UncleEbenezer]

When you break the law and are convicted, you should expect to lose some of your rights - and not just freedom.

Time to bring out the chain gangs.

I could soon sort out an increased number of prison spaces by making life much less convenient for them.

Time to bring out the Gulag.

Messrs Nealon, Malkinson et al will doubtless thank you. As will quite a number of postmasters.

Or, I guess, their current and future equivalents, whoever they may be.

I'd be all for harsh prisons if the rest of the system worked!

[UncleEbenezer]

I was working in Inland Revenue when self assessment was introduced, if you think it's easy to fiddle UB just wait until someone does an in depth analysis of money fiddled through this system.

How far back are you going there?

I think HMRC have far more information reaching them through back-channels nowadays. My more recent self-assessment tax returns have shown a remarkable amount of my finances pre-entered before I even started filling them. Which suggests there's less scope for fiddling the system, at least for the little people who aren't paying thousands an hour for advice.

I take your point about those targets, though.

[stevensfo]

Although I've always opposed the idea of compulsory ID cards I've gradually been coming round to the idea that they might be a good thing after all, not just to help combat fraud, but to enable us to establish our bona fides without all the absurd rigmarole that applies at present.

All right, somebody's got to ask. Who's going to guarantee that the ID cards aren't forgeries?

BJ

Well, they could have a chip embedded in them, like credit cards etc that allow the person checking to access info that assists in identification, as well as the hologram. Yes, it will probably be possible to clone ID cards just like they do with credit/debit cards, but hopefully, most people will have an app on their phone that 'pings' when their card is accessed.

I am usually 100% honest and law-abiding, but I think that in another life, I was a master criminal. Forgeries and concealing/encrypting info has always fascinated me. Years ago, I forged our tennis club cards and did a very good job. No fraud involved, honest. Two cards were required to book a court so it just made it easier.

Accounts with the new online banks are quite easy to open, but they are very fussy about real-time photos of passports taken with your phone, and insist on the hologram being visible to prove its authenticity. This got me thinking. Proof of a hologram is just that bit of reflected light at a certain angle. Does anyone really examine it with a magnifying glass? So why not use the holograms in old passports to make a nice forgery?

A project for a rainy day?

Steve

PS I also used to forge my Dad's signature (very easy) to get out of doing gym at school. I didn't mind the outside sports, but the silly somersaults in the gym used to terrify me. I mean, where do you put your hip flask and fag?

[Lootman]

As someone who joined the DWP in 1959 when it was the Ministry of Labour and National Service I can tell you exactly what is wrong. Politicians interfering to make things "better". Gordon Brown decreed that it was humiliating for people to have to queue up every week to collect their unemployment benefit money.

I think that it should be humiliating, degrading and tedious to claim subsidies from the rest of us. A weekly total waste of time in some grimy and dreary welfare office waiting in a queue of other non-contributors should be the absolute minimum to get free money.

Subsidies should be stigmatic.

[ReformedCharacter]

I think that it should be humiliating, degrading and tedious to claim subsidies from the rest of us. A weekly total waste of time in some grimy and dreary welfare office waiting in a queue of other non-contributors should be the absolute minimum to get free money.

Subsidies should be stigmatic.

It certainly used to be. I remember signing on in the early days of Thatcher when I lived in Bristol. It generally took around one and a half hours or more to get from the back of the queue to the counter. Usually there was someone going completely nuts at the staff, a wait of that length doesn't do much for claimants with a mental health issue. Fortunately for the staff they already had reinforced glass fronts to the counters and the main Bristol cop-shop was across the road in the aptly named Bridewell St. Usually the cops would be called at least once during the line wait to drag away someone who had lost it with the counter staff. Not the sign of a civilised society IMO.

RC