Accented broadcasting

[UncleEbenezer]

SA and Madison thought a bit: "You from Belgium?"

Never been taken for Belgian.

But when I speak German in Germany, I usually get taken for Dutch. When I speak Italian in Italy I get taken for German, Austrian, Dutch, or occasionally even English. Best of all, when I speak Swedish in Scandinavia[1] I can get taken for a Swede.

[1] Excluding Denmark: Danish isn't so much a language as a speech-impaired variant of Norwegian or Swedish, so easier to get by in English there.

[tjh290633]

SA and Madison thought a bit: "You from Belgium?"

Never been taken for Belgian.

But when I speak German in Germany, I usually get taken for Dutch. When I speak Italian in Italy I get taken for German, Austrian, Dutch, or occasionally even English. Best of all, when I speak Swedish in Scandinavia[1] I can get taken for a Swede.

[1] Excluding Denmark: Danish isn't so much a language as a speech-impaired variant of Norwegian or Swedish, so easier to get by in English there.

When I was at school we had a French visitor. He commented that I spoke French with a Belgian accent.

On one occasion at work we had an Italian supplier who used French, Spanish and German words when allegedly speaking English.

The children of one of my US Friends use to hide a tape recorder behind the settee, so they could capture my accent. But I have been asked "What part of the States do you come from?".

TJH

[88V8]

It is a bit annoying though should one intentionally broaden (or sharpen depending on your view?) an accent for whatever purposes as though it lends some unearned authenticity

It surprises me that adults actually can change their accent, to the point where it becomes ingrained.
My parents were from Lancs & Yorks, but one would never know, even though they were already in their 30s then they moved to London.

V8

[stewamax]

In a related post: viewtopic.php?p=657204#p657204 I commented that Maynard Keynes, whose command of English and English idiom was beyond reproach, might now (were he still with us) be blackballed from broadcasting owing to his drawling accent. For a short clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PYSFqCSsGU
and note in passing his pronunciation of 'cost' as 'corst' - something almost London dialect; the late Deborah Duchess of Devonshire (née Mitford) also did this.

Rhyd6 rightly criticises of those who assume there is only one ('Max Boyce') Welsh accent. To me, the difference is north vs south, with North Wales English (and Welsh) generally sounding harsh, monotone and with a touch of Liverpudlian (e.g. sounding 't' as 'ts'), whereas the South has an almost west country lilt. Certain digraphs are said differently also: in the north, Eirlys is said aye-rlys (or occasionally eee-rlys) whereas in the south it is eye-rlys.
David Lloyd George, who was born in Manchester to Welsh parents but lived almost all his early life in in a very welsh-speaking part of north-west Wales, never managed to put tonal ebb and flow into his speeches: vide https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXmlcGWdNs8

The late (and superb) dialect coach Joan Washington, whose comments on some WW1 recordings of English accents are so illuminating (viewtopic.php?p=550998#p550998) tended to concentrate on regional accents, but it would have been fascinating to have her illustrate how the 40 or so phonemes in ‘posh’ English changed during the 20th C.

[Lootman]

It is a bit annoying though should one intentionally broaden (or sharpen depending on your view?) an accent for whatever purposes as though it lends some unearned authenticity

It surprises me that adults actually can change their accent, to the point where it becomes ingrained. My parents were from Lancs & Yorks, but one would never know, even though they were already in their 30s then they moved to London.

I think it would be hard to intentionally change an accent, except in the sense that actors can do that.

But accents can naturally and slowly change over time if say you are immersed in another culture or marry someone with a different accent. My mother apparently had a Geordie accent when she was young but it had vanished by the time I came along. Her sister retained hers however.

[Arborbridge]

I find this hard to vote on because it depends on the context. I suppose I am probably in the bracket which doesn't care much as long as I can understand it - which sometimes means RP, sometimes doesn't.

Nothing wrong with regional accents in general - but there are some particular people speaking with a regional accent I would like to listen to, and people with extreme accents I wouldn't employ in the job. Neither do I enjoy exagerrated accents which one feels are put on for the purpose.

Arb.

[Arborbridge]

It surprises me that adults actually can change their accent, to the point where it becomes ingrained. My parents were from Lancs & Yorks, but one would never know, even though they were already in their 30s then they moved to London.

I think it would be hard to intentionally change an accent, except in the sense that actors can do that.

But accents can naturally and slowly change over time if say you are immersed in another culture or marry someone with a different accent. My mother apparently had a Geordie accent when she was young but it had vanished by the time I came along. Her sister retained hers however.

Lord Howard had a dreadfully fake sounding accent, which I think was changed from his native Welsh. I might be wrong about that, but that is what I was told.

[MrFoolish]

How can there possibly be a neutral accent? You may as well describe a neutral skin colour.

[doolally]

How can there possibly be a neutral accent? You may as well describe a neutral skin colour.

I think a neutral accent is one where one cannot determine its origin. Not scouse, not geordie, not brummie, not scottish, etc
doolally

[MrFoolish]

How can there possibly be a neutral accent? You may as well describe a neutral skin colour.

I think a neutral accent is one where one cannot determine its origin. Not scouse, not geordie, not brummie, not scottish, etc
doolally

You mean Home Counties (but not Essex). In which case we can determine its origin.

[Arborbridge]

I think a neutral accent is one where one cannot determine its origin. Not scouse, not geordie, not brummie, not scottish, etc
doolally

You mean Home Counties (but not Essex). In which case we can determine its origin.

So, you think Sarah Montague is from the Home Counties? She has a native Guernsey accent.

Arb.

[MrFoolish]

You mean Home Counties (but not Essex). In which case we can determine its origin.

So, you think Sarah Montague is from the Home Counties? She has a native Guernsey accent.

Arb.

I don't even know who she is so I can't comment.

It might make it easier if you give an example of someone famous whose accent you object to.

[stewamax]

I wonder how much the speaker's choice of words reinforces the effect of an accent on the listener.
In (rare) idle moments I sometimes listen to YouTube clips from the US binding mediation series Judge Judy where litigants tend to be blue-collar.

Former family-court judge Judith Sheindlin is clearly well-read and uses English words that are fully apposite in context but often fly over the heads of the litigants and witnesses. She is, as far as I can judge, not doing it for effect or to further intimidate those on the receiving end. Neither is she 'Boston Brahmin posh': she has a Brooklyn accent, and with a Jewish background, some Yiddish turns of phrase.

[Lootman]

I wonder how much the speaker's choice of words reinforces the effect of an accent on the listener.
In (rare) idle moments I sometimes listen to YouTube clips from the US binding mediation series Judge Judy where litigants tend to be blue-collar.

Former family-court judge Judith Sheindlin is clearly well-read and uses English words that are fully apposite in context but often fly over the heads of the litigants and witnesses. She is, as far as I can judge, not doing it for effect or to further intimidate those on the receiving end. Neither is she 'Boston Brahmin posh': she has a Brooklyn accent, and with a Jewish background, some Yiddish turns of phrase.

My wife is New York Jewish, originally from Brooklyn. Her use of "shtick", "schlemiel", "schmuck" etc. has rubbed off on me. Plus using "awesome" way too much

But three years at an Ivy League university and then moving to California has taken the edge off it and I'd describe her accent now as mid-Atlantic. Americans describe a standard accent as a "neutral" or "general" American accent. Other than NY, Boston, Southern and "valley girl" I cannot tell US accents apart.

[MrFoolish]

You mean Home Counties (but not Essex). In which case we can determine its origin.

So, you think Sarah Montague is from the Home Counties? She has a native Guernsey accent.

Arb.

Sorry, I was out and about so didn't give you a full reply.

I should add that is not possible that a Guernsey accent and a home counties accent are similar? West Country and Norfolk strike me as being fairly similar. None of this persuades me that there should be some default choice.

In the early days of radio, the BBC will have picked its rich mates from in and around London to be the presenters. We've got used to these accents, that's all.

[stevensfo]

SA and Madison thought a bit: "You from Belgium?"

Never been taken for Belgian.

But when I speak German in Germany, I usually get taken for Dutch. When I speak Italian in Italy I get taken for German, Austrian, Dutch, or occasionally even English. Best of all, when I speak Swedish in Scandinavia[1] I can get taken for a Swede.

[1] Excluding Denmark: Danish isn't so much a language as a speech-impaired variant of Norwegian or Swedish, so easier to get by in English there.

Excluding Denmark: Danish isn't so much a language as a speech-impaired variant of Norwegian or Swedish, so easier to get by in English there.

Scandinavians say that Danish sounds like a Norwegian or Swede with a hot potato in their mouth. Funnily enough, our only Scandinavian friends ARE Danish and they agree! It does have a reputation as the hardest one of the three to learn. (Or four if you include Icelandic).

I once considered learning one of the languages and mentioned that Danish would be great because of the historical links with England. They looked at me in horror and told me to learn Norwegian. Apparently considered the easiest for Brits to learn. Still on my 'To do' list.


Steve

[UncleEbenezer]

So, you think Sarah Montague is from the Home Counties? She has a native Guernsey accent.

Arb.

I don't even know who she is so I can't comment.

It might make it easier if you give an example of someone famous whose accent you object to.

You can hear her every day presenting lots of news and comment on Radio 4.

Given that the original topic was broadcasting, picking one of the BBC's most widely-heard voices seems to me like an excellent example of "canonical" English.

[UncleEbenezer]

I wonder how much the speaker's choice of words reinforces the effect of an accent on the listener.
In (rare) idle moments I sometimes listen to YouTube clips from the US binding mediation series Judge Judy where litigants tend to be blue-collar.

Former family-court judge Judith Sheindlin is clearly well-read and uses English words that are fully apposite in context but often fly over the heads of the litigants and witnesses. She is, as far as I can judge, not doing it for effect or to further intimidate those on the receiving end. Neither is she 'Boston Brahmin posh': she has a Brooklyn accent, and with a Jewish background, some Yiddish turns of phrase.

My wife is New York Jewish, originally from Brooklyn. Her use of "shtick", "schlemiel", "schmuck" etc. has rubbed off on me. Plus using "awesome" way too much

Methinks a lot of that language has become endemic here. The English Language is, after all, a big melting-pot that welcomes contributions from around the world! I was using some of that language before I ever became aware of its origin.

But three years at an Ivy League university and then moving to California has taken the edge off it and I'd describe her accent now as mid-Atlantic. Americans describe a standard accent as a "neutral" or "general" American accent. Other than NY, Boston, Southern and "valley girl" I cannot tell US accents apart.

She's probably sufficiently cosmopolitan that she can vary her accent according to context. I think that's true to a greater or lesser extent of pretty-much anyone who's had exposure to different communities. I was most aware of modifying my own accent when I lived in Sheffield.

I can tell different British accents apart to a reasonable degree, but as soon as we cross a border it becomes much harder. But I think part of that is because people you talk to adopt "canonical" language. A Bavarian will switch to Hochdeutsch when speaking to me, because they know their local accent is b***** hard for a foreigner - or sometimes even for a non-local native speaker. But surely you have at least a broad concept of the difference between Hollywood and NY?

[Arborbridge]

So, you think Sarah Montague is from the Home Counties? She has a native Guernsey accent.

Arb.

I don't even know who she is so I can't comment.

It might make it easier if you give an example of someone famous whose accent you object to.

" Famous" is a variable, but she is certainly well known to listeners on Radio 4 having presented both Today and World at one. And I wasn't objecting to her accent at all - but the point was that she has the standard "neutral" accent people were discussing, but does not come from the Home Counties. So, "standard neutral" does not necessarily mean Home Counties.

As for giving examples: there aren't many, but I did mention one, Mark Steel. I can name many more which I like - Jess Gillam, Maxine Peake come to mind, but it would be a long and boring list. As for actual presenters or news people: I am happy with more or less any BBC news people.

Arb.

[Arborbridge]

I should add that is not possible that a Guernsey accent and a home counties accent are similar?

But Guernsey isn't the home counties, and that was the point. So the standard neutral accent referred to cannot be just "Home Countries" - it belongs to a far wider, possibly universal, geographic.

BTW, my first instinct on seeing someone write "neutral" was: this is nonsense