The death of desire

[Rhyd6]

My first husband died when he was 32, I'd have given everything I posessed for that not to happen. It made me realise that possessions are nothing. I was very lucky that in my 40s I met and married a kind and generous man who would have given me the earth but the fact that he not only took on me but acquired a ready made family who he has loved and cared for as if they were his own is more valuable than all material things. I am so lucky that no-one in my immediate family gives a fig about "things", they all realise family and friends are what count and for that I'm eternally grateful.

R6
I still appreciate the gift of decent bottles of wine mind

[Clariman]

I'm similar too but I've been like it most of my life. I have my parents to thank for bringing us up with a cynicism for materialism and a disdain for 'keeping up with the Joneses'. My mother did voluntary work in a charity shop and most of my clothes came from there - even the suit I got married in.

I have also inherited their inverted snobbery about designer labels and brands. My mother came home from the charity shop once with a second hand Ralph Lauren jumper but he made her unpick and remove the logo! When supermarkets started giving free carrier bags he complained that it was just free advertising.

Some very good fortune in employment and marrying someone who cannot bring herself to spend money on Mulberry handbags, meant we both retired in mid-50s.

I do like to have a nice car but have never bought a BMW, Mercedes, Ferrari, Porsche etc. My current car is a Seat, so the second bottom brand in the VW group portfolio.

I used to like buying software in the early days and rarely left PC World without a software purchase. Software is what made computers actually do stuff.

So is it our age or is it our outlook? For me it is the latter.

Clariman

[ten0rman]

I suppose really, I'm the same as everyone else on this thread, having been forced in early years to be economical, but now as I'm getting on a bit, well a lot really, I take the view that there's very little I/we actually want, or even need, but that doesn't stop us buying new for replacement purposes. So for example, we're looking at a new caravan, not s/h, new. Which might be OTT at 75 but what the heck, we can't take it with us. Other than that, we give the grandkids some money every now and then, ok it might well be wasted, but again, what the heck, and it can't be clawed back (there's no trail). Also pay for everyone's meals occasionally when we have a family get together. And so on. Biggest problem now is trying to reduce the chances of IHT etc, which I think I've possibly left a little late. Afterall, 7 years from now makes me early 80's and the probability of falling off my perch is getting higher.

But no, what do I need? Actually, what I do need, is something money can't buy. And that's for my 2 year old granddaughter to accept that grandad is here to do things with her. Trouble is that as she lives 80+ miles away, she isn't getting the "getting used to time" that my other grandchildren had. They only live 14 miles away so we never off the doorstep as it were. Although to be fair, we've all been at Centre Parks this w/e and so she has had some Grandad time.

And yes, I know I've used the English spellings. How I detest the American spellings!

Regards,

ten0rman

[AndyPandy]

The majority of the snug users appear to be of a generation and we probably didn't have much free cash when we were younger, nor parents that could afford today's 'necessities' (should they have existed).

It's a constant battle between myself and Mrs Pandy at Christmas to balance the amount of 'stuff' our kids get. Clearly I think it's far too much, clearly she thinks that they should not feel less splurged than their peers. They do appear to be relatively non-materialistic, but time will see when they have to budget for themselves.

Any one got any solution to my other perpetual problem. I'm (rightly) known as a bookworm and not one for buying clothes. Each birthday and Christmas I get books or clothes from the in-laws. How do I tell them that I'm actually of a age where a) if I had nothing, I would be happy and b) the books I read and the clothes I wear are to be chosen by me in a serendipitous wander round a Book/Charity shop (Books) or Marks (Clothes). I have a drawer full of unworn clothes and a regifting box full of unread books that are not what I would have chosen)....

[Dod101]

TenOrman and I have a lot in common but I must say I find this whole thread slightly depressing. It is almost as if there is no ambition, and having for example spent a lot of money over the years having the three bathrooms/shower rooms in my house refitted at considerable expense I would not want anything else. The main one is top of the range stuff and works wonderfully well.

I buy a new vehicle when I feel like it and I wear Ralph Lauren shirts (as well as Lands End I may say) Actually the RL shirts not only feel comfortable and hopefully look good but they also wear very well. I never pay full price but buy at the Outlet at Gretna.

Now that I am on my own I tend to go to rather expensive hotels and find them very comfortable. Why not?

I am most definitely not trying to keep up with anybody, that aspect I could not care less about. I have five grand daughters and I try to look after them but life is for living and doing what you want. I certainly have no desire for the latest gizmo's although as my late wife used to say, 'You must stay current'.

I also have the same problem as AndyPandy as I still have a father in law and partner who insist on giving me stuff to wear. What I do is take it to my local charity shop. They live about 200 miles from me so are unlikely ever to find out. I too read a lot and I have got people schooled into giving me a book token, usually from Amazon. That solves that problem.

Dod

[Dod101]

When I wrote my post, I had not read Howards and that approach I think has a great deal to commend it. I too give to charity although not I suppose more than anyone else and certainly I do not feel I can afford to give away large amounts of money but I do give regularly to medical charities. For intensely personal reasons these are Diabetes UK and Myeloma UK.

Dod

[bungeejumper]

TenOrman and I have a lot in common but I must say I find this whole thread slightly depressing. It is almost as if there is no ambition, and having for example spent a lot of money over the years having the three bathrooms/shower rooms in my house refitted at considerable expense I would not want anything else.

I'm still getting used to the idea of 'decumulating', having spent my whole life accumulating for exactly these years - I finally started drawing down on my personal pension only three months ago, although I'm still working maybe 15 hours a week as well. (My job is too interesting to want to stop. ) But I don't find it too difficult to accept the idea of spending it on myself and the wife - or not, as we might decide. I've saved for it, and it's mine, and flexibility in my approaching wrinkly years is the whole name of the game. There's nothing much to be gained by being the wealthiest corpse in the graveyard and letting the Treasury plunder it.

Like some others here, we're pitching quite a lot of cash toward our granddaughter, mainly ( in our case) through a trust so that she can't get her hands on it till she's 18. We'll eventually get used to taking more holidays - hopefully in addition to (rather than instead of) our annual low-cost camping/hiking hols in France. We've never been the sort who are interested in dressing up for dinner on a cruise liner - I'm pretty sure I'd die of boredom if the over-eating didn't get me first. The only way I'd want to do that would be if they'd let me drive the boat, and I think we can rule that one out.

But back to material possessions. There are very few that I really want - I don't watch (much) TV, and I really don't want to have wall-to-wall box sets of American dramas coming in from Netflix (whatever that is). With one exception.

Possibly my best new acquisition over the last year has been (don't laugh) a metal detector, just for the garden. A couple of years ago I found an Iron Age Celtic brooch in my onion bed, where it had been lying for the last two thousand years. Another four bronze rings have recently followed, and various small Roman bits and pieces, and I now appear to have a first century site on my hands, including probably a burial. I've contacted all the archaeology bods, so it's all above board. Researching it is my project for my old age.

But wow. Just wow. Whoever owned that bronze brooch would probably have said it was his most valuable possession, apart from a great big club and a spear perhaps. (The brooches were what kept your woollen shawl from falling off and freezing you to death.) How aspirations have changed.

BJ

[brightncheerful]

I don't agree it's an older age thing. I can remember a time during my late 20s when I became so fed up with anything but work that I wondered why I was bothering. My accountant at the time suggested that the feeling I was experiencing was normal and that in due course it would fade and new stimuli would arrive. And sure enough that happened.

Also I don't think it's a money thing. More likely is that CK having worked in a demanding profession and now retired is suffering insufficient stimulus in his day. Amongst attractions in being a professional adviser is that one never knows who is going to contact you for advice. The art and skill in attracting new business can sometimes/often be more fun/exciting than performing the service. Whatever, the point is that if you're any good at what you do for others then there is always something new to do for them. The same principle applies to yourself: if you're any good at what you do for yourself then there's always something new to do for you.

In my opinion, it's not the death of desire to ask yourself why would you want to buy x when what's you've got is adequate for your needs. The promotion and offering of new gadgets technology products etc is not targeted at people that are not in the market to buy, but at those that are.

[dionaeamuscipula]

Anyway, between me and a VW expert fixed that. He's called Rusty.

It wasn't until I got nearly to the bottom of the post that I worked out that Rusty wasn't the VW expert.

DM

[bungeejumper]

In my opinion, it's not the death of desire to ask yourself why would you want to buy x when what's you've got is adequate for your needs. The promotion and offering of new gadgets technology products etc is not targeted at people that are not in the market to buy, but at those that are.

I don't agree with all of that, bnc, but you're onto something with this one. Way back in 1969, I chanced upon a book by an American marketing psychologist called Vance Packard, called The Waste Makers. In which he expressed the view that the never-ending furious growth in consumer products would one day result in refrigerator plants being sited on clifftops so that the machines that couldn't be sold could be tipped straight into the sea - thus saving money, and creating jobs into the bargain.

It was a bit of a flawed argument, in (very) many ways , but he was onto something with his early view that industrial society had become so hooked on constant product replacement that it might crash and self-destruct if it ever stopped or even slowed down a bit. Even though everybody had everything they needed/wanted, the task of shovelling out new goods onto the public had become a kind of manic dance where the obscene marketing message was "consume, consume, consume".

Ol' Vance was ahead of his time in many other ways. His other magnum Opus, The Hidden Persuaders, was an eye-opening study of subliminal marketing and sales techniques, all of which were completely known to US marketing scientists fifty years ago. It was scary at the time, and it hasn't got much less scary since.

BJ

[Clitheroekid]

#metoo

I don't use Twitter or understand how hashtags work, but in view of what seems to be a general consensus on the board (and thanks to all for a very interesting debate) I'd suggest a new hashtag:

#mehtoo

[Clariman]

Ol' Vance was ahead of his time in many other ways. His other magnum Opus, The Hidden Persuaders, was an eye-opening study of subliminal marketing and sales techniques, all of which were completely known to US marketing scientists fifty years ago. It was scary at the time, and it hasn't got much less scary since.

My dad was am economics lecturer and he gave me Hidden Persuaders to read when I was very young - aged 10 to 12 I think. It had a big influence on me and has always made me very aware of selling and marketing. I think it was where I first came across the idea of "built in obsolescence ".

My wife thinks I had a deprived childhood because we never watched Disney cartoons, but Vance Packard was good enough for me!

[tea42]

Anyway, between me and a VW expert fixed that. He's called Rusty.

It wasn't until I got nearly to the bottom of the post that I worked out that Rusty wasn't the VW expert.

DM

Sorry about that, my syntax was awful. The VW Expert is called Dave. He loves Rusty as a welcome release from doing endless boring MOTs. I think he is planning a continuing income stream many years into the future

Wouldnt it be great if one could buy really well made products that were guaranteed for at least 20 years, albeit at a premium price. At one point in my career I applied for a job at a well known small electrical appliance manufacturer. I was appalled when informed at interview that the design life of their products varied between 10 and 40 hours of operation.

[bungeejumper]

My dad was am economics lecturer and he gave me Hidden Persuaders to read when I was very young - aged 10 to 12 I think. It had a big influence on me and has always made me very aware of selling and marketing.

What a great book that was. I remember the one about toothpaste advertising in the fifties.

The manufacturers had tried telling the public that toothpaste was good for their teeth, and they hadn't responded to that message at all. Then they tried telling them that it would stop their breath from smelling awful and driving away all their friends (and all their prospective love interests), and they didn't seem to care about that either. The breakthrough came when they told people that their toothpaste tasted nice, and that it would leave their mouths feeling tingly and fresh.

The supermarkets had also figured out most of the tricks they still use - setting up bogus price discounts and placing 'dump bins' with fully-priced items in the hope that people would be stupid enough not to notice. (Our local Wilko is still doing that!) They'd noticed that shoppers bought more goods if the store layout was anti-clockwise. (In America, at least. Might have been different in drive-on-the-left Britain.) And, perhaps most spookily of all, they'd identified precisely how long a supermarket shelf should be. Too long, and you'd frighten the shoppers and make them feel 'trapped' within the aisles so that they'd choose another place to shop. Too short, and they wouldn't take the store seriously.

Sixty years later, I can think of a fair few stores that still fall foul of those rules. (Mainly cheapo retail barns.) The mind is a peculiar place.

BJ

[AleisterCrowley]

...I applied for a job at a well known small electrical appliance manufacturer. I was appalled when informed at interview that the design life of their products varied between 10 and 40 hours of operation.

Washing machines, based on recent experience

[Watis]

Wouldnt it be great if one could buy really well made products that were guaranteed for at least 20 years, albeit at a premium price. At one point in my career I applied for a job at a well known small electrical appliance manufacturer. I was appalled when informed at interview that the design life of their products varied between 10 and 40 hours of operation.

10 to 40 hours?

Obviously not electric drills, then, which it is claimed are unlikely to see half an hour's use in their lives!

http://www.credport.org/blog/12-Why-a-D ... ng-Economy

Watis

[RececaDron]

What a great book that was. I remember the one about toothpaste advertising in the fifties.

The manufacturers had tried telling the public that toothpaste was good for their teeth, and they hadn't responded to that message at all. Then they tried telling them that it would stop their breath from smelling awful and driving away all their friends (and all their prospective love interests), and they didn't seem to care about that either. The breakthrough came when they told people that their toothpaste tasted nice, and that it would leave their mouths feeling tingly and fresh.

"Demand Engineering" of this nature arguably began in the early 1920s with Lambert Pharmacal's advertising campaign for Listerine aimed at generating (previously absent) feelings of insecurity, in this case about the possibility of having bad breath, and bringing into common parlance the medical term "halitosis".

Headlined "Halitosis - Makes you Unpopular", campaign literature would say:

"No matter how charming you may be or how fond of you your friends are, you cannot expect them to put up with halitosis (unpleasant breath) forever. They may be nice to you — but it is an effort".


One strand of the campaign copy went on to focus on young women, considered to be more suggestible and more fearful, coining the now much-used expression "often a bridesmaid but never a bride":

"Edna's case was really a pathetic one. Like every woman, her primary ambition was to marry. Most of the girls of her set were married — or about to be. Yet not one possessed more grace or charm or loveliness than she. And as her birthdays crept gradually toward that tragic thirty-mark, marriage seemed farther from her life than ever. She was often a bridesmaid but never a bride.

That’s the insidious thing about halitosis (unpleasant breath).

You, yourself, rarely know when you have it. And even your closest friends won’t tell you.”
(accompanying an illustration of a distressed bridesmaid, head in hands, and in tears)


The demand-engineering worked: in 7 years Lambert Pharmacal's revenues increased by over 7000% on the back of the Listerine campaign. And continues to work.

[bungeejumper]

One strand of the campaign copy went on to focus on young women, considered to be more suggestible and more fearful, coining the now much-used expression "often a bridesmaid but never a bride":
[b][i]
"Edna's case was really a pathetic one. Like every woman, her primary ambition was to marry. Most of the girls of her set were married — or about to be. Yet not one possessed more grace or charm or loveliness than she. And as her birthdays crept gradually toward that tragic thirty-mark, marriage seemed farther from her life than ever. She was often a bridesmaid but never a bride.

Oh, indeed. And by the 1960s the TV adverts featured friends who were visibly repulsed by the "Bee Owe" emanating from their colleagues. Obviously, "B.O" wasn't a medical condition, but that everybody knew what it was, and that was enough to unsettle people and make them clean up.

In those days, of course, not everybody had a bath at home, and showers were considered the province of (a) dodgy continentals and (b) dodgy ex-public school types. Even so, the campaign resonated, and eventually soap and water won the day.

Going back to bad breath: As a teenager, I worked in an upmarket store selling furniture. You could pretty well tell by the paint-stripper breath which of the customers were well-heeled. Their manservants would never have dared to tell them that they smelt worse than the Bermondsey tannery. Still, at least they tipped well.

BJ

[RececaDron]

Going back to bad breath: As a teenager, I worked in an upmarket store selling furniture. You could pretty well tell by the paint-stripper breath which of the customers were well-heeled. Their manservants would never have dared to tell them that they smelt worse than the Bermondsey tannery. Still, at least they tipped well.

Nice anecdote.

Garlic, while fashionable with the Victorians, had fallen back out of favour (and out of use) in UK kitchens by the post-war period.

Perhaps your well-heeled customers were the privileged few with the money to be dining in garlic-seeped French restaurants or be sourcing pongy Italian sausages from their upmarket grocer. And be dispersing their Continental cuisine-derived effluvia wherever they went - in noticeable contrast to blandly provendered proles.

[bungeejumper]

Garlic, while fashionable with the Victorians, had fallen back out of favour (and out of use) in UK kitchens by the post-war period.

Perhaps your well-heeled customers were the privileged few with the money to be dining in garlic-seeped French restaurants or be sourcing pongy Italian sausages from their upmarket grocer.

LOL, it's possible that you've never encountered the full aristocratic blast. It's 50% pear drops and 50% conc sulphuric acid. Not to be confused with garlic. I wouldn't have wanted to be their dentist, always supposing that they ever had one.

BJ