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Building SIPP for the wife

Including Financial Independence and Retiring Early (FIRE)
Quint
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Building SIPP for the wife

#112603

Postby Quint » January 22nd, 2018, 3:51 pm

Hi,

I have been lurking on this forum for quite some time and learning quite a lot from some of the regular posters on here. Previously I was a lurker on TMF also.

So I though it was time to contribute something to the debate.

A bit of background I turned 50 in December and the wife (mrs Quint if you like) is 56 in march. We paid off our mortgage a few years ago, married 20 years next summer with no children. Hence we have no need to preserve any capital to pass on, although we have both made a will in case something does happen to both of us, somebody may get a nice surprise.

Both me and the wife have decided to FIRE at the end of Feb this year after working at the same company for 14 years (me) and 27 years (mrs Quint) and as planned we both finish on the same day.

Wife has the next 4 years income in cash and bonds so may do some temporary work in the meantime but has no need to, any income is a bonus, I plan on doing some contract work (I am an IT network engineer) if I can get it or if not some temporary truck driving work (my job before a career change, still kept my class 1 license). If not I have next years income in cash and we both have 5 years income as a reserve (we are cautious) for both of us so working is optional at the moment.

Work should take up 3 to six months max each year to leave the rest of the time for doing the stuff we want to do more of.

We have worked out what our income needs to be and split that equally between the two of us and in fact mrs Quint has been living to that budget easily for the last 3 years with the remainder of her salary going direct in to savings.

Our pensions need provide only for our day to day living which is bills, food and general spending money. All holidays, travel and hobbies (diving mostly) will be provided for from our stocks and shares isa's which again are split roughly 50\50 between us.

Mrs Quint will get a small final salary pension from our employer when she is 60 which will meet half of her income requirement (she has the option to take an enhanced payment between 60 and state pension age which is 67, she will have full state pension entitlement at 67), the other half will be provided by her SIPP. I have worked out that a yield of 3.1% will cover that (including costs). The SIPP will be built from Investment Trusts and the SIPP provider is HL so costs will be capped at £200 per year.

Once at State pension age a yield of approx. 1 - 1.5% will be required from the SIPP. We will re-evaluate at that point to our drawdown strategy.

The initial building of the SIPP has come from transferring a previous pension that had ended up with Royal London. The value is one third of what it will be when she finishes work and we transfer in her Defined Contribution element of her occupational pension.

Initially I have invested equal amounts in the 8 IT's below.

City Of London - UK Income
CQS New City High Yield Fund - High Yield
Finsbury Growth & Income - UK Growth and Income
Foreign & Colonial - Global Growth and Income
Henderson Far East Income - Global Income
Scottish American - Global Income
Scottish Mortgage - Global Growth
Witan Investment - Global Growth and Income

Combined they give the current required yield of circa 3.1%

When the remaining two thirds of the cash is transferred in I intend to double the above holdings and also add 4 more trusts at equal weight with the goal of keeping the yield at 3.1% or if possible slightly above to give a little margin of safety on the yield although our cash and bond buffer means this is not vital.

Ones under consideration are
Murray Income - UK Income
Murray International - Global Income
Mercantile - UK Small and Medium Companies
Black Rock Uk Smaller Companies

If there is any cash left it may be used to increase one of the higher yield trusts to keep to target or bring one more on board. I consider 12 trusts to be adequate.

If the growth IT's perform well they could be top sliced to provide a "special dividend" or used to purchase more yield.

The plan is over the next 4 years to allow dividends to build up in cash towards the 25% tax free she will take at 60 with the rest coming from top slicing the trusts. The first years income will be from the 25% and then the actual years income taken from that years yield which will build up in cash and will be taken at the end of the first year to keep tax management as simple as possible.

If things hit the skids she will have 25% from her final salary and will take uncrystalised lumps from the SIPP at the end of each tax year until things settle down.

We have no plans for a big spend of the 25% so some of that will be re-invested in our ISA's that provide the travel money.

I think that is enough for now. My Sipp is in a different place and I have no final salary so all my income will have to come from that but I will give info on that in a different thread.

Would be interested to see what opinions there are on my plans or if I have missed something obvious.

Best Regards
Mark

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Re: Building SIPP for the wife

#112875

Postby Longtermyieldman » January 23rd, 2018, 8:05 pm

I think your strategy is good and like most of your ITs. Given the value of diversification and the fact that having more holdings costs you nothing other than initial dealing charges but brings you more regularity in dividend payments, I'd go with both lists, plus a few more. Others I'd add include:

- F&C Private Equity (since PE tends to outperform in the long run)
- JP Morgan Emerging Income (good to have some dedicated emerging markets exposure)
- Lowland Investments and Diverse Income (both great at above-inflation dividend hikes, crucial given your relatively long expected retirement period)

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Re: Building SIPP for the wife

#112877

Postby Itsallaguess » January 23rd, 2018, 8:14 pm

Quint wrote:
If not I have next years income in cash and we both have 5 years income as a reserve


<AHEM> -

"You're gonna need a bigger float....."

Itsallaguess

Farewell and adieu to you fair Spanish ladies / Farewell and adieu you ladies of Spain. / For we received orders for to sail back to Boston / And soon never more will we see you again

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Re: Building SIPP for the wife

#112878

Postby moorfield » January 23rd, 2018, 8:26 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
Quint wrote:
If not I have next years income in cash and we both have 5 years income as a reserve


<AHEM> -

"You're gonna need a bigger float....."

Itsallaguess

Farewell and adieu to you fair Spanish ladies / Farewell and adieu you ladies of Spain. / For we received orders for to sail back to Boston / And soon never more will we see you again



And you're gonna need a bigger coat, Itsallaguess.


Quint - your selection of ITs looks very sensible to me.

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Re: Building SIPP for the wife

#112934

Postby Quint » January 24th, 2018, 7:47 am

Longtermyieldman wrote:I think your strategy is good and like most of your ITs. Given the value of diversification and the fact that having more holdings costs you nothing other than initial dealing charges but brings you more regularity in dividend payments, I'd go with both lists, plus a few more. Others I'd add include:

- F&C Private Equity (since PE tends to outperform in the long run)
- JP Morgan Emerging Income (good to have some dedicated emerging markets exposure)
- Lowland Investments and Diverse Income (both great at above-inflation dividend hikes, crucial given your relatively long expected retirement period)


Hi,

Thanks for the response, regularity of dividend payments is not critical as we will leave them to build up over the year and take them as one lump sum at the end of the year to make best use of tax allowance. We will have a savings account to draw income from and top that up from the sipp.

I will look at the other IT's you mention although Lowland is one that is on the radar already.

Regards
Mark

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Re: Building SIPP for the wife

#112938

Postby Quint » January 24th, 2018, 8:09 am

Itsallaguess wrote:
Quint wrote:
If not I have next years income in cash and we both have 5 years income as a reserve


<AHEM> -

"You're gonna need a bigger float....."

Itsallaguess

Farewell and adieu to you fair Spanish ladies / Farewell and adieu you ladies of Spain. / For we received orders for to sail back to Boston / And soon never more will we see you again


Wife has 4 years of income in cash and bonds which allows for at least a 2.5% uplift each year, any contract work she does will either be a top off to this or get recycled back in to our Investments ISA's. That gets her to 60 which is the optiomum time to take her final salary pension which covers 50% of income required, the other 50% will be covered by natural yield, so the 5 years of income she will have in cash and bonds should only ever be needed to make up an income shortfall should we hit a bad downturn, although using investment trusts is one tactic to minimise that possibility.

Even the income floor we are working to includes £100 per week each for "beer money" which we rarely ever spend that much, £100 per week for food, again most weeks is well under this, and leaves us each about £1800 per year to cover random expenses like dentist, clothes, small jobs around the house etc.

I have made no spending commitment yet for the 25% tax free lump sum, all travel and leisure will be funded by a good sized portfolio of equity investments in our ISA's. There is plenty of scope to cut back on this if required, holidays to cheaper parts of the world rather than the Carribean.

As for me, i have worked ever since i left school at 16, have a HGV class 1 with 8 years of experience plus 16 years experience as an IT network and security engineer, plus a City & Guilds in electrical installation. If i cannot pick up enough work to earn 12 grand a year over the next 5 years then i have nobody to blame but myself.

I have tried to cover as many bases as possible but having seen a close colleague die of cancer after 40 years service and 9 months before the retirement he had put off for "another" year (despite being loaded and his wife being loaded as well) and one of the guys in my department just have half his insides removed because of cancer 3 years before retirement we have decided that the biggest risk not is one of us "checking out" before we get the chance to spend some good time doind what we want to do.

Alternatively you could have been joking, given my username :D

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Re: Building SIPP for the wife

#112942

Postby kempiejon » January 24th, 2018, 8:40 am

Quint wrote:I have tried to cover as many bases as possible but having seen a close colleague die of cancer after 40 years service and 9 months before the retirement he had put off for "another" year (despite being loaded and his wife being loaded as well) and one of the guys in my department just have half his insides removed because of cancer 3 years before retirement we have decided that the biggest risk not is one of us "checking out" before we get the chance to spend some good time doind what we want to do.


Quint, it looks like you have a plan and most bases covered as you say, I think the highlighted above is very important and in my example I'd rather have a few quid less, take a risk and give up the commitments of work sooner rather than later. I might be making a clumsy assumption about my own circumstances but from what you've described I'd do it in the boat you have and deal with the consequences if they arise. So here's to swimmin' with bow legged women.

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Re: Building SIPP for the wife

#112956

Postby Quint » January 24th, 2018, 9:25 am

kempiejon wrote:
Quint wrote:I have tried to cover as many bases as possible but having seen a close colleague die of cancer after 40 years service and 9 months before the retirement he had put off for "another" year (despite being loaded and his wife being loaded as well) and one of the guys in my department just have half his insides removed because of cancer 3 years before retirement we have decided that the biggest risk not is one of us "checking out" before we get the chance to spend some good time doind what we want to do.


Quint, it looks like you have a plan and most bases covered as you say, I think the highlighted above is very important and in my example I'd rather have a few quid less, take a risk and give up the commitments of work sooner rather than later. I might be making a clumsy assumption about my own circumstances but from what you've described I'd do it in the boat you have and deal with the consequences if they arise. So here's to swimmin' with bow legged women.


Our thoughts exactly, if we can do what we want now then only end up with enough to get by on the at least we have done it, or wait longer to be sure we can do what we can do now as long as we still have health. If things go better than planned we are on a winner, if not we have to put a bit more effort in to getting by.

Our situation would be more clear cut if we were both the same age but with the mrs being nearly six years older we need to do it now.

In an ideal world one the last one of us takes our last breath the bank balance should be zero, however in practice that may prove impossible. The final safety net would be to release equity from the house.

If you see a recession Hopper - swallow :D

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Re: Building SIPP for the wife

#113083

Postby Itsallaguess » January 24th, 2018, 4:36 pm

Quint wrote:
I have tried to cover as many bases as possible but having seen a close colleague die of cancer after 40 years service and 9 months before the retirement he had put off for "another" year (despite being loaded and his wife being loaded as well) and one of the guys in my department just have half his insides removed because of cancer 3 years before retirement we have decided that the biggest risk not is one of us "checking out" before we get the chance to spend some good time doind what we want to do.


Absolutely. You seem to have covered many more bases than a few who will have taken the plunge, and given your circumstances I think you're right to make the jump. As you say, it's not a one-way-street, and there's always the chance of further employment if push comes to shove at some point, and you seem to be of the type who will of course continue to monitor the situation as you go, so with a fair wind there will hopefully be a warning to action long before you need to take it.

Quint wrote:
Alternatively you could have been joking, given my username :D


I suppose a smiley might have been in order, if it wasn't clear that this was indeed the case....

The best of luck with your endeavours, and I wish you both a long and happy retirement.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Building SIPP for the wife

#113091

Postby Quint » January 24th, 2018, 5:05 pm

The situation will be well monitored and our plans are very fluid with several outs and plan b's. I have been nurturing our portfolio's along for several years now building up slowly so any mistakes have had a minimal impact.

There will be updates along the way and the learning path has barely begun, this forum has been very useful either for different ideas or a little validation of what I had been thinking.

It is nice to see the post from people on here who have walked the walk so to speak and proven that with care and effort things really can work out.

Best Regards
Mark

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Re: Building SIPP for the wife

#113169

Postby Itsallaguess » January 25th, 2018, 4:11 am

Quint wrote:
The situation will be well monitored and our plans are very fluid with several outs and plan b's. I have been nurturing our portfolio's along for several years now building up slowly so any mistakes have had a minimal impact.

There will be updates along the way and the learning path has barely begun, this forum has been very useful either for different ideas or a little validation of what I had been thinking.

It is nice to see the post from people on here who have walked the walk so to speak and proven that with care and effort things really can work out.


With that said, it would be absolutely fantastic if you were to add yourself to the commentators here as you become one of the 'walkers' yourself, and pop back in from time to time and let us all know how you're getting on.

It would be great to hear, for instance, if you find that you're managing to live on much less than anticipated (whilst still maintaining the same lifestyle you planned for...), as many others seem to suggest is often the case.

Whilst it would be good to hear if you can be added to that list of retirees, I get the feeling that you might also be able to go into much more detail as to why this might be the case, if it turns out to be so, given the clear attention to detail that you've demonstrated in this thread, and I think that detail might be a fantastic addition to the previous anecdotal evidence we've heard from others in your enviable position.

I'm sure the years will fly by as you both enjoy your well-earned retirement, but please don't forget to pop back in to give us working tax-payers regular updates along the way....

It's the hope that we might join you one day that keeps us all going!!

All the very best.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Building SIPP for the wife

#113190

Postby Quint » January 25th, 2018, 8:17 am

Hi,

The main reason for what we are doing is the same old story of working for a big coporation for a long period and just seeing the same mistakes being made by an never ending revolving line of useless middle managers and non stop coportate bull, powerpoint presentations and diversity courses.

What pushed the final decision was when we moved offices last November to a site further in to Nottingham which is just a non stop traffic hellhole. It is only two miles further than the old site we were told but that two miles has increased our journey time by 50% and that is now having to leave at 4.00pm.

We now have to be in the office by 7.30 because the site has car parking for only 50% of the staff so the car park is full by 8.00am so then you would have to spend up to 30 minutes driving round the industrial estate and then have a walk of up to 1 mile to get back to the office.

I do intend to continue to be a regular visitor here as not only will be be using our investments to live but i actually find the subject interesting and managing and monitoring our portfolio is going to be an ongoing task. The irony is my wife has worked in finance most of her life and has zero interest and 90% of her knowledge about pensions has come from what i have learned.

I must admit that George Osborne and his pension reforms are one of the main reasons we can do what we are doing today.

This forum has been a goldmine of information from people who are doing this for real rather than people just writing articles for click bait. Plus it is nice to see comparisons of different investing styles, as they say there is more than one way to skin a cat and as long as a portfolio delivers what the owner requires who is to say what is right or wrong. The end result is the important thing.

There will be updates as the SIPP's get built to completion and then as they perform to see if they really do what we need them to.

Regards
Mark

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Re: Building SIPP for the wife

#132905

Postby Quint » April 17th, 2018, 6:53 pm

Quint wrote:
Initially I have invested equal amounts in the 8 IT's below.

City Of London - UK Income
CQS New City High Yield Fund - High Yield
Finsbury Growth & Income - UK Growth and Income
Foreign & Colonial - Global Growth and Income
Henderson Far East Income - Global Income
Scottish American - Global Income
Scottish Mortgage - Global Growth
Witan Investment - Global Growth and Income



So, Mrs Quint's DC pension has finally transferred in to her SIPP.

As stated before, the SIPP will not need to provide income for another 4 years.

The good news is that the total sum will today already give the income that it will need to provide in 4 years time (plus about 3%) with a starting yield of 3% so it is ahead of the game and means I can roll back a little on the push for yield and focus more on growth and dividend growth.

The goal for the SIPP to hit the figure I am looking for means it needs to advance 20% total in 4 years, with dividends reinvested. If this happens and the yield stays at 3% this will give me an extra 15% over the required income, which can either be taken if required or reinvested.

For the sake of sanity and to keep things neat I have decided that the holdings in this SIPP will initially be in blocks of 5, 7.5 or 10%. No initial holding will be more than 10% of the total.

So far I have done the following;

City of London has been brought up to 10%
CQS New City has been increased to 5%
Henderson far East Income has been increased to 5%
Scottish American has been increased to 5%

I am planning to increase to 7.5%
Foreign and Colonial
Witan
Finsbury
Scottish Mortgage

New purchases I am looking at are:

Murray International at 10%
Lowland at 10%
Diverse Income at 10%
Henderson Smaller Companies at 5 %
F&C Private equity at 5%

This will leave about 5% in cash to look at one more purchase. Dividends will be used to top up as and when.

I will post the final portfolio when complete.

Quint

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Re: Building SIPP for the wife

#133130

Postby GeoffF100 » April 18th, 2018, 9:21 pm

The reason for buying an active fund is that you believe, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that you can pick a winner, and it will be a big enough winner to outweigh the additional costs over buying a tracker. If you buy eight active funds, you can look forward to getting an average performance before costs, with the performance drag of higher costs. That is the worst of both worlds. It is pretty much a guarantee of underperformance after costs.

Putting all your pension money in equities is extraordinarily risky. Your age in bonds as a percentage is a common rule of thumb.

The two most important factors to consider are controlling risks and controlling costs.

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Re: Building SIPP for the wife

#133154

Postby tjh290633 » April 18th, 2018, 11:13 pm

GeoffF100 wrote:Putting all your pension money in equities is extraordinarily risky. Your age in bonds as a percentage is a common rule of thumb.

That rule of thumb has long been discredited.

TJH

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Re: Building SIPP for the wife

#133189

Postby Quint » April 19th, 2018, 8:50 am

tjh290633 wrote:
GeoffF100 wrote:Putting all your pension money in equities is extraordinarily risky. Your age in bonds as a percentage is a common rule of thumb.

That rule of thumb has long been discredited.

TJH


Thank you for that. I have read a quite a few of your posts including the ones where you did some analysis on the real return of Gilts in recent years. I found that very helpful.

My response was going to be that at 56 with a potential 25 - 30 year or more investment horizon putting 56% of her SIPP in to bonds in a low interest rate environment for the strong prospect of rising interest rates does not seem the best option.

She will be getting 50% of her income from an index linked final salary pension which I would compare to a bond holding without any risk.

When the state pension kicks in that will be income on top, at that point the SIPP will only be needing to top off about 10 - 15% of the required income.

There is also a large safety net in cash ISA's and Premium Bonds so the overall portfolio is actually not all in equities but the SIPP is.

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Re: Building SIPP for the wife

#133192

Postby Quint » April 19th, 2018, 9:01 am

GeoffF100 wrote:The reason for buying an active fund is that you believe, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that you can pick a winner, and it will be a big enough winner to outweigh the additional costs over buying a tracker.


Not really. I did look at building the portfolio using ETF's (HL cap charges at £200 for ETF's and Investment Trusts, unit trusts have a 0.45% platform fee). However the yield would not be high enough on its own (I am not convinced on high yield ETF's as a product) which would mean that we would need to top slice to boost the income. Also some degree of rebalancing would be required. If anything happened to me my wife would not be comfortable with needing to do that.

Investment trusts were chosen for a specific reason.

Once state pension kicks in and required yield drops I will review and move some in to ETF's if I think that is the way to go.
Last edited by Quint on April 19th, 2018, 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Building SIPP for the wife

#133193

Postby tjh290633 » April 19th, 2018, 9:02 am

That is very sensible in my view. I have to say that, as I approach 85, going into fixed interest securities is far from my thoughts. 85% bonds would be a ridiculous idea, and with escalating pensions, bonds in any form have no attraction.

TJH

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Re: Building SIPP for the wife

#133201

Postby Dod101 » April 19th, 2018, 9:34 am

I agree with Fred. I do not much like specialist ITs anyway. I think a few well chosen generalists are all you need. I have held many of them over the years, and currently would favour F & C, probably Witan (although I hold neither at the moment) Finsbury Growth and Income, Scottish Mortgage, Edinburgh, RCP. That is enough to be going on with I think. Depending on what your aim is with the SIPP, income or growth or both, you could add a few of the HYP usuals.

Just my opinion. Do not be afraid of some risk otherwise you will get nowhere.

Dod

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Re: Building SIPP for the wife

#133204

Postby Quint » April 19th, 2018, 9:50 am

Dod101 wrote:I agree with Fred. I do not much like specialist ITs anyway. I think a few well chosen generalists are all you need. I have held many of them over the years, and currently would favour F & C, probably Witan (although I hold neither at the moment) Finsbury Growth and Income, Scottish Mortgage, Edinburgh, RCP. That is enough to be going on with I think. Depending on what your aim is with the SIPP, income or growth or both, you could add a few of the HYP usuals.

Just my opinion. Do not be afraid of some risk otherwise you will get nowhere.

Dod


Dod,

I value your opinion, you talk a lot of sense. My initial thought was about a dozen IT's which is enough to cover what I want which is approx. 3% yield with some opportunity for growth. As this is for the wife I am not going in to HYP.

UK Blue chip income - City of London
UK mid cap income - Lowland, Diverse income
UK income and growth - Finsbury
UK Small companies - Henderson
High Yield Bonds - New City
Global Income - Murray Int, Scottish American
Far East Income - Henderson Far East Income
Global Growth - F&C, Witan, Scottish Mortgage

When i mentioned putting 10% in to Murray International you suggested 10% was too much concentration. My plan was to limit any one holding to 10% max so that would require at least 10 holdings.

I want each holding to be at least 5% as I think anything smaller will make no significant impact.

I am however not putting anything in to specialist areas such as property or infrastructure trusts at this point in time.


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