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High Yield Investment Trusts - AIC Sector and Yield table (Jan 2019)

General discussions about equity high-yield income strategies
Itsallaguess
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High Yield Investment Trusts - AIC Sector and Yield table (Jan 2019)

#191407

Postby Itsallaguess » January 6th, 2019, 6:50 am

Below is a table of Investment Trusts in Jan 2019 with a yield over 2.5%, broken down by AIC Sector, and then listed in order of yield, in descending order per sector -



I've dip-checked the above data, but it should be used only as a starting-point for further investigation, and it should certainly be the case that you should carry out your own due-diligence on any data that you may use for any subsequent investment decisions that you might make.

The above data can be re-generated by using the link below to the AIC website -

https://tinyurl.com/yawfc9zy

Some instructions for you to be able to generate up-to-date yield-data in the future, using the above excellent website -

1. Open the AIC website (https://tinyurl.com/yawfc9zy)

2. Select the 'AIC Sector Selection' button, and deselect all 'AIC VCT Sectors'

3. Select the 'Filters' button, and then set the 'Dividend Yield' option to '2.5%+'

4. You should now have an up-to-date yield table similar to the above, broken down by AIC Sectors.

5. If you want to import that data into a spreadsheet, to perhaps then rank by yield or similar, then you should enable the option to view the data in 'Print Mode' by selecting the 'Save / Print' option, and then selecting the 'Enable Print Mode' button - the data will then be represented on-screen in a way that can be selected and copied into a spreadsheet.

Please do note that if you don't select the 'Enable Print Mode' option, and you try to copy the data into a spreadsheet, then it's likely to only copy some of the data...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: High Yield Investment Trusts - AIC Sector and Yield table (Jan 2019)

#191411

Postby Dod101 » January 6th, 2019, 7:32 am

Itsallaguess

Thanks for that table but one yield stands out as incorrect for me. There is no way RIT yields 3.43%. In fact the current yield is 1.73% so I suspect that there is a typo somewhere. It is not and never has been a highish yielder and in fact most of the yield comes from capital payments.

The others that I hold look OK.

Dod

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Re: High Yield Investment Trusts - AIC Sector and Yield table (Jan 2019)

#191416

Postby Itsallaguess » January 6th, 2019, 8:17 am

Dod101 wrote:
Thanks for that table but one yield stands out as incorrect for me.

There is no way RIT yields 3.43%. In fact the current yield is 1.73% so I suspect that there is a typo somewhere. It is not and never has been a highish yielder and in fact most of the yield comes from capital payments.

The others that I hold look OK.


Thanks Dod, you're right - it does seem to be an anomaly with the AIC data for RIT Capital Partners.

Looking at both DividendData and Trustnet for RIT Capital, they both show a yield of 1.68%, which aligns with your own calculation -

DividendData - https://tinyurl.com/y6wap33z

Trustnet - https://tinyurl.com/ycadlyhn

Thanks for highlighting this, and also confirming some of the other correct data for some of the other investments you hold.

As I've said before, whilst it's always likely that there may be some anomalous data in these types of tables, I hope the information is still useful as a starting-point for further investigation, especially as we sometimes start to look further afield into different business and geographical sectors for some of our investment income.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: High Yield Investment Trusts - AIC Sector and Yield table (Jan 2019)

#191455

Postby Itsallaguess » January 6th, 2019, 11:59 am

As well as the instructions underneath the main table above, showing how you can generate this type of yield-data yourself at any point in the future, I also meant to show how we can easily find out what the underlying investments in these collectives are, just in case anyone is interested in these types of investments, but are perhaps a little unsure just what they'd actually be invested in 'under the bonnet'...

I tend to use Trustnet initially, as a quick go-to and first-look, as I know the way their website is laid out, and know how to quickly find the holdings-list that I'm interested in for a given Investment Trust, so if we take 'Merchants' as an example Investment Trust that we might like to quickly investigate (UK Equity Income sector - Yield of 5.73%), then I'd carry out the following steps -

1. Use Google, and type in the following phrase - "Trustnet Merchants".

2. Of the top Google results, I'd usually find the Trustnet page I want within them. Here is the one returned for this particular search -

https://www.trustnet.com/factsheets/t/bj25/merchants-trust-plc

3. On the above Trustnet page, we can see the following data on the right-hand side of the page, towards the bottom -

Image

4. I'd perhaps have a bit of a trawl through a number of Trustnet pages, perhaps looking at some of the other performance-related information.

5. If I found something I was particularly interested in, then I'd always want to make sure that the holdings-information from Trustnet was correct and still valid at this time, so I would always then want to go to the investment website itself, to verify this information..

6. If we go back to Google, and now search on the following phrse - "Merchants investment trust holdings", we would want to look in the search results for what looks like the official homepage of the Trust itself.

7. Using the above search terms, we can see in the top Google results, this link -

https://www.merchantstrust.co.uk/

8. On the above page, we can see a link for 'Portfolo and Performance', which leads us to this page -

https://www.merchantstrust.co.uk/Portfolio-and-Performance

9. On the above page, as well as helpfully verifying the current yield (5.7%) we can see the following holdings-data, which verifies the previous Trustnet data completely -

Image

As we can see with the above example, it's often the case that we can achieve a good level of diversification, across a wide section of sectors and often also geographical areas, with income-related Investment Trusts which deliver a good starting-yield.

If I were starting an income-portfolio today, and the capital available to drip into the portfolio meant that only a small number of individual-companies would be viable as initial investments, then I'd recommend that at least some of that capital was allocated to more widely-diversified investments similar to the above IT example, at least to help avoid the bulk of what might be 'single-company risk' at the start of a given investment-journey.

Whilst it's clear that there are additional costs involved with taking this route, I think those costs should simply be seen as a level of insurance we should sometimes be willing to 'take out', to help achieve a good level of diversification as soon as we can with our income-portfolios.

Once a good level of diversification has been achieved, then low-numbers of specific single-company high-yield investments start to make a lot more sense, but I think there is nothing worse than starting out with a portfolio with a small number of single-company investments and then being in the unlucky position of some of those investments being marked down on either income or capital, early on in the portfolio's life.

The effects of such bad luck can be mitigated quite considerably by taking an approach that allocates at least some initial capital to these types of collective income-investments....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: High Yield Investment Trusts - AIC Sector and Yield table (Jan 2019)

#191463

Postby Dod101 » January 6th, 2019, 12:11 pm

The other point which IAAG may not have covered in his idea of adding single companies to an IT portfolio is the accumulation between the single company and the holdings in the Trust or Trusts. Unsurprisingly, income ITs hold most of the usual suspects held in any high yield portfolio of UK shares. This effect has been very evident in the great fall in BAT's value recently.

That is why I would not buy say City of London alongside my high yield shares and tend to go for something completely different in ITs away from the high yield ones altogether.

Dod

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Re: High Yield Investment Trusts - AIC Sector and Yield table (Jan 2019)

#191467

Postby Itsallaguess » January 6th, 2019, 12:21 pm

Dod101 wrote:
The other point which IAAG may not have covered in his idea of adding single companies to an IT portfolio is the accumulation between the single company and the holdings in the Trust or Trusts. Unsurprisingly, income ITs hold most of the usual suspects held in any high yield portfolio of UK shares. This effect has been very evident in the great fall in BAT's value recently.

That is why I would not buy say City of London alongside my high yield shares and tend to go for something completely different in ITs away from the high yield ones altogether.


Thanks Dod - that's a very good point, and is actually another reason why, if I were starting out again with income-investing, I'd want to build up a good base of collective-investments such as income-IT's first, and then when I was happy with that situation, I could perhaps then start to look to diversify out into single-companies.

Having a base of single-company investments that would not be overlapped somewhere by similar-market collectives is difficult to achieve, but doing it the other way around would perhaps be much easier...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: High Yield Investment Trusts - AIC Sector and Yield table (Jan 2019)

#191476

Postby DavidM13 » January 6th, 2019, 12:37 pm

Good Afternoon,

I work on these numbers at the AIC. I agree that the figures for RIT are wrong. I have already contacted our data provider "Morningstar" and asked them to fix this up. Morningstar have many quality checks but from time-to-time errors will filter through still. Do please feel free to use the "Have a question" buttons on the site if you spot any mistakes so we can quickly take them up with the provider and ideally help them not repeat the errors. I also note that issues are often down to methodologies rather than data quality so again you are welcome to use that button to discuss any numbers on the website.

Best Regards
David

p.s. You can also ignore JPM Smaller Companies yield for now. We have already raised this with them. It was to do with the recent stock split not reflecting each data item.

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Re: High Yield Investment Trusts - AIC Sector and Yield table (Jan 2019)

#191480

Postby Itsallaguess » January 6th, 2019, 12:54 pm

DavidM13 wrote:
Good Afternoon,

I work on these numbers at the AIC. I agree that the figures for RIT are wrong. I have already contacted our data provider "Morningstar" and asked them to fix this up. Morningstar have many quality checks but from time-to-time errors will filter through still. Do please feel free to use the "Have a question" buttons on the site if you spot any mistakes so we can quickly take them up with the provider and ideally help them not repeat the errors. I also note that issues are often down to methodologies rather than data quality so again you are welcome to use that button to discuss any numbers on the website.

Best Regards
David

p.s. You can also ignore JPM Smaller Companies yield for now. We have already raised this with them. It was to do with the recent stock split not reflecting each data item.


Hi David,

Thanks ever so much for your input into this thread - what a small world we live in when we can invite such fantastic expertise onto these boards!

Good point on the option of using the 'Have a question' button to highlight such errors too - I know there's been many times when we've collectively informed other data-providers such as Digital Look and Yahoo regarding some issues in the past, so it's great to know that such a facility exists on the AIC website too.

Thanks again!

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: High Yield Investment Trusts - AIC Sector and Yield table (Jan 2019)

#191498

Postby richfool » January 6th, 2019, 2:09 pm

Thank you Itsallaguess for posting that listing. Most useful.

I took the opportunity to pick out several trusts which interested me, based on the yield quoted and particularly the income growth figure and have been having a further look at them.

I noted in addition to JP Morgan Smaller Coys yield being wrong, Montanaro Smaller Coys yield was (according to HL's website) also too high. It should be c 2.11% as opposed to 5.47%.

(As UK stocks are currently so out of favour and beaten down by various events), I have been looking to increase my UK exposure by adding another UK trust (or even an ETF like ISF) to my (higher yielding) IT portfolio, and was prompted by the listing to revisit Murray Income and Dunedin (from the UK G&I sector) as possible candidates. I was surprised by Murray Income's low income growth figure of only 1.2%. Dunedin had a higher income growth rate of 3.8% as well as a higher yield. (MUT yield: 4.58%. DIG yield: 5.8%).

I also wondered whether CQS Natural Resources (CYN) might be worth a punt, based on its yield of 6.50% (or 5.98% according to HL) and discount of: 15.8%. Certainly a depressed sector currently and the trust gives broad exposure to basic resources.

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Re: High Yield Investment Trusts - AIC Sector and Yield table (Jan 2019)

#191524

Postby Dod101 » January 6th, 2019, 4:29 pm

DavidM13 wrote:Good Afternoon,

I work on these numbers at the AIC. I agree that the figures for RIT are wrong. I have already contacted our data provider "Morningstar" and asked them to fix this up. Morningstar have many quality checks but from time-to-time errors will filter through still. Do please feel free to use the "Have a question" buttons on the site if you spot any mistakes so we can quickly take them up with the provider and ideally help them not repeat the errors. I also note that issues are often down to methodologies rather than data quality so again you are welcome to use that button to discuss any numbers on the website.


So your numbers are only as good as Morningstar's. I do not understand why you do not do what I hope Morningstar does and look up the numbers at source. I can never understand this. We get the same thing on this and other Boards. People ask questions when the answer can easily be found in an Annual Report say but thanks fro your info.

Dod

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Re: High Yield Investment Trusts - AIC Sector and Yield table (Jan 2019)

#191633

Postby Arborbridge » January 7th, 2019, 10:02 am

Dod101 wrote:So your numbers are only as good as Morningstar's. I do not understand why you do not do what I hope Morningstar does and look up the numbers at source. I can never understand this. We get the same thing on this and other Boards. People ask questions when the answer can easily be found in an Annual Report say but thanks fro your info.

Dod


Because he is doing this voluntarily and believes (like I do) that a quick and potentially inaccurate result is better than nothing.

For goodness sake! I am full of praise for people who do this work and give of their time to help us in whatever way they can. I would NOT expect anyone to go through the labour of consulting individual company announcements or reports for such a summary table.

If you want that level of accuracy, do it yourself. Otherwise quite moaning. :evil:

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Re: High Yield Investment Trusts - AIC Sector and Yield table (Jan 2019)

#191636

Postby Dod101 » January 7th, 2019, 10:15 am

I am not moaning Arb. I was commenting to DavidM13 because he 'works on these numbers at the AIC' I assumed from that he 'works' there, ie that he is a paid employee. If not then I have got that wrong but that is what he said. Why would the AIC of all organisations rely on another intermediary to get what many might regard as reliable stats?

If I want stats I go to the Annual Report or work them out for myself, which is I assume what Morningstar does.

Dod

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Re: High Yield Investment Trusts - AIC Sector and Yield table (Jan 2019)

#191646

Postby DavidM13 » January 7th, 2019, 10:46 am

Dod101 wrote:
DavidM13 wrote:Good Afternoon,

I work on these numbers at the AIC. I agree that the figures for RIT are wrong. I have already contacted our data provider "Morningstar" and asked them to fix this up. Morningstar have many quality checks but from time-to-time errors will filter through still. Do please feel free to use the "Have a question" buttons on the site if you spot any mistakes so we can quickly take them up with the provider and ideally help them not repeat the errors. I also note that issues are often down to methodologies rather than data quality so again you are welcome to use that button to discuss any numbers on the website.


So your numbers are only as good as Morningstar's. I do not understand why you do not do what I hope Morningstar does and look up the numbers at source. I can never understand this. We get the same thing on this and other Boards. People ask questions when the answer can easily be found in an Annual Report say but thanks fro your info.

Dod


Hi Dod, Hopefully I can explain,

Firstly, they have already fixed JPM, Montanaro and RIT which are now reflected accurately on the site.

Morningstar do not look at the yield numbers at source. In fact they do not collect discount, dividend yield, dividend growth, NAV or price performance numbers, gearing figures, Z-statistics or pretty much any other calculated data item at source. They collect the raw data and make their own calculations on the back of them. This is to ensure whole of market coverage, consistency, timeliness and flexibility.

For the yield example, there are a couple of reasons surrounding methodology consistency and signposting but the main reason is the timeliness. You would be looking at yields that could be a year old in the annual report and comparing them with other companies where the yield is 3 months old. More significantly yields change daily so quoting an annual report yield would almost always be stale. A company with a 100p share price on the day of the annual report, yielding 6% would have paid out 6 pence. If we are to assume it will pay 6 pence again this year (a safe starting point before we progress through the year and more information becomes available), but today’s current share price is 90 pence, then the quoted yield is 6.7%.

This is where the flexibility noted earlier comes in to play. By only collecting raw dividends a user can graph daily yield (including that quoted in the annual), look at growth rates between any periods, calculate yields at different assumed prices and separate out the effect of Income vs Capital dividends if they so choose.

Finally, this approach also explains why Montanaro UK Smaller Companies appears to show such a high yield. The revised value on the site is around 4.1%, this is because in July 2018 the company announced a change in policy, saying it will pay 1% of NAV per quarter - https://www.theaic.co.uk/financial-advi ... 3A03/7832V

The factsheet agrees http://documents.financialexpress.net/L ... 704223.pdf. HL haven’t quoted this because their product (also taken from Morningstar) chooses to show yield on last completed financial year instead. So it will equalise after a time but for now is quite different as you noted. This sorts of inconsistencies are not desirable and should be removed wherever possible but if clients choose to represent different methodologies it sometimes cannot be helped.


Hope that makes sense.
David

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Re: High Yield Investment Trusts - AIC Sector and Yield table (Jan 2019)

#191647

Postby DavidM13 » January 7th, 2019, 10:50 am

Dod101 wrote:I am not moaning Arb. I was commenting to DavidM13 because he 'works on these numbers at the AIC' I assumed from that he 'works' there, ie that he is a paid employee. If not then I have got that wrong but that is what he said. Why would the AIC of all organisations rely on another intermediary to get what many might regard as reliable stats?

If I want stats I go to the Annual Report or work them out for myself, which is I assume what Morningstar does.

Dod


Hi Again,
No moaning offence taken! I want the data to be accurate and I am happy to help all users of the data. Morningstar are the professional data providers to many brokers, asset managers, wealth managers and platforms throughout the industry. Hopefully my previous post provided more context on how they operate but happy to take any questions. Within reason, of course!

David

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Re: High Yield Investment Trusts - AIC Sector and Yield table (Jan 2019)

#191650

Postby Crazbe7 » January 7th, 2019, 11:13 am

I have effectively split my HYP into two income streams - FTSE 100 shares and mostly international ITs. Currently 40% HYP shares, 30% ITs and 30% cash - to be invested post Brexit malarkey. I have sold HYP shares over the last three months and have not reinvested dividends or used my £20,000 allowance yet this tax year. Leaning towards 75:25 investment into ITs. Probably top-ups to existing ITs rather than new.

I hold 20+ shares in my HYP, the usual suspects supported by 9 ITs - Mostly Far East/India/North America/European based. I have tried hard not to overlap shareholdings in ITs with my FTSE 100 HYP shares, but that becomes harder as you add ITs. For example HSBC, Billiton and Rio Tinto being stalwarts of many Far East ITs and a core of my FTSE 100 HYP.

I transitioned into ITs within my HYP over the last five to ten years to add diversification away from the FTSE 100. Seems to be working OK. Income up year on year which is my benchmark. I don't need it as still working and reinvest within my ISA. Have been running PEPs/ISAs when in the UK since introduction in '87. If only I'd kept decent records!!

These investment do overlap with my SIPP, which is now predominately tracker based, but too difficult to avoid duplication.

Crazbe7

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Re: High Yield Investment Trusts - AIC Sector and Yield table (Jan 2019)

#191670

Postby Dod101 » January 7th, 2019, 12:31 pm

DavidM13

Many thanks for taking the trouble to explain all of that. It now makes sense. I certainly was not complaining about any inaccuracy; that is almost to be expected with any sort of stats. As it happens, I have just done my own year end calculations of yield for my own holdings, which include RIT. I take the actual dividends paid over the year against the year end closing price. That does not work for all holdings of course, because if I have only acquired a share say in say mid year, I will have only at most probably two quarterly payments or one if the share pays only two dividends per financial year, so called dividend drag.

It also means that the data gets out of date quite quickly, although often there is an underlying pattern.

Thanks again for the explanation. AIC is a great resource.

Dod

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Re: High Yield Investment Trusts - AIC Sector and Yield table (Jan 2019)

#191697

Postby Arborbridge » January 7th, 2019, 2:04 pm

Dod101 wrote:I am not moaning Arb. I was commenting to DavidM13 because he 'works on these numbers at the AIC' I assumed from that he 'works' there, ie that he is a paid employee. If not then I have got that wrong but that is what he said. Why would the AIC of all organisations rely on another intermediary to get what many might regard as reliable stats?

If I want stats I go to the Annual Report or work them out for myself, which is I assume what Morningstar does.

Dod


Oh dear, sorry.
Not for the first time, I started typing before thinking so I apologise. I quite misunderstood your post and thought you were criticising itsallaguess. :oops:

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Re: High Yield Investment Trusts - AIC Sector and Yield table (Jan 2019)

#204978

Postby Itsallaguess » March 2nd, 2019, 10:24 am

Link to March 2019 data -

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=16541

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: High Yield Investment Trusts - AIC Sector and Yield table (Jan 2019)

#214641

Postby Gadgeisbackagain » April 12th, 2019, 1:25 pm

http://www.funddata.com/invescpdf/209.pdf

This shows Invesco Perpetual UK Smaller companies as having a yield around 2%.

Maybe figures were distorted by a special div?

Great table and idea though.
Well done.

Re your comments about getting collectives first then branching out later into specific shares, I find it quite useful to base the branching out using my best collectives top ten published shares, thereby overweighting them as I see fit.

Gadge


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