Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit Card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to MyNameIsUrl,GSVsowhat,johnstevens77,BusyBumbleBee,88V8, for Donating to support the site

HYP against benchmarks: 9 years on

General discussions about equity high-yield income strategies
Arborbridge
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3144
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 603 times
Been thanked: 1020 times

HYP against benchmarks: 9 years on

#219166

Postby Arborbridge » May 3rd, 2019, 9:39 am

I thought after funduffer's excellent post, I'd post something similar - though I don't intend to compete will his excellent detailed reporting. Here we have charts showing firstly, capital progress of HYP, IncomeIT basket and incomeOEIC basket:

Image

It's clear that HYP has not progressed well relative to the others since around 2016 and is currently failing even the simple test of exceeding RPI or FTSE100.

Image

The results for income per unit are closer, but the smoothed income increases for ITs will attract many pensioners against the OEICS and HYP which are more volatile. However, one must also bear in mind that HYP constantly yields rather more which helps to compensate.

My mindset is still to continue with HYP for the immediate future, but the IT portfolio will probably be gradually given more of my capital. However, that is quite difficult to do since HYP share are always on offer giving a higher yield - one must steel onself to make do with a lower income each time a choice is being made.

I anyone is interested, I will post full list of the income IT and OEIC fund I use. Overall, the surprise to me is how well the OEICS compare - though it has to be said the income is more volatile - considering what "flack" we give this type of instrument.

Arb.

dspp
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3678
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:53 am
Has thanked: 2714 times
Been thanked: 872 times

Re: HYP against benchmarks: 9 years on

#219172

Postby dspp » May 3rd, 2019, 9:53 am

Arborbridge wrote:I thought after funduffer's excellent post, I'd post something similar - though I don't intend to compete will his excellent detailed reporting.
Arb.


Arb,
Are you in drawdown or still building ? Can you easily put up a TR graph for all these to compare them ? That would be interesting to see.
regards,
dspp

Arborbridge
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3144
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 603 times
Been thanked: 1020 times

Re: HYP against benchmarks: 9 years on

#219182

Postby Arborbridge » May 3rd, 2019, 10:04 am

dspp wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:I thought after funduffer's excellent post, I'd post something similar - though I don't intend to compete will his excellent detailed reporting.
Arb.


Arb,
Are you in drawdown or still building ? Can you easily put up a TR graph for all these to compare them ? That would be interesting to see.
regards,
dspp


Being interested in income, I didn't start keeping records of accumulation units. I can say that the XIRR from August 2006 for the HYP is 5.83% and for the ITs from November 2008 is 9.3%. XIRR isn't very good when the starting dates are different, but this probably shows which way the wind's blowing on TR comparison.

I am living on the income so most of it is drawdown - what isn't drawn is re-invested.

Arb.

CryptoPlankton
Lemon Slice
Posts: 412
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 12:12 pm
Has thanked: 673 times
Been thanked: 330 times

Re: HYP against benchmarks: 9 years on

#219190

Postby CryptoPlankton » May 3rd, 2019, 10:22 am

Arborbridge wrote:
I anyone is interested, I will post full list of the income IT and OEIC fund I use.

Arb.

Yes please, it would be very informative to see the portfolios being compared. Any possibility of including the portfolio yields too?

Thanks for sharing your data.

dspp
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3678
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:53 am
Has thanked: 2714 times
Been thanked: 872 times

Re: HYP against benchmarks: 9 years on

#219196

Postby dspp » May 3rd, 2019, 10:35 am

Arborbridge wrote:
dspp wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:I thought after funduffer's excellent post, I'd post something similar - though I don't intend to compete will his excellent detailed reporting.
Arb.


Arb,
Are you in drawdown or still building ? Can you easily put up a TR graph for all these to compare them ? That would be interesting to see.
regards,
dspp


Being interested in income, I didn't start keeping records of accumulation units. I can say that the XIRR from August 2006 for the HYP is 5.83% and for the ITs from November 2008 is 9.3%. XIRR isn't very good when the starting dates are different, but this probably shows which way the wind's blowing on TR comparison.

I am living on the income so most of it is drawdown - what isn't drawn is re-invested.

Arb.


Thank you, no worries. regards, dspp

BrummieDave
Lemon Slice
Posts: 524
Joined: November 6th, 2016, 7:29 pm
Has thanked: 133 times
Been thanked: 203 times

Re: HYP against benchmarks: 9 years on

#219231

Postby BrummieDave » May 3rd, 2019, 12:00 pm

Arborbridge wrote:
I anyone is interested, I will post full list of the income IT and OEIC fund I use. Overall, the surprise to me is how well the OEICS compare - though it has to be said the income is more volatile - considering what "flack" we give this type of instrument.

Arb.


Yes please, I'm always interested to compare IT Portfolios, and have previously posted mine. Seeing the OEICs as well would also be good.

TUK020
Lemon Slice
Posts: 712
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 7:41 am
Has thanked: 149 times
Been thanked: 319 times

Re: HYP against benchmarks: 9 years on

#219321

Postby TUK020 » May 3rd, 2019, 4:02 pm

CryptoPlankton wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:
I anyone is interested, I will post full list of the income IT and OEIC fund I use.

Arb.

Yes please, it would be very informative to see the portfolios being compared. Any possibility of including the portfolio yields too?

Thanks for sharing your data.


Yes please as well
tuk020

Arborbridge
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3144
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 603 times
Been thanked: 1020 times

Re: HYP against benchmarks: 9 years on

#219436

Postby Arborbridge » May 4th, 2019, 7:39 am

Here is the IT basket:



And here is the OEIC basket:



Arb. (now for some breakfast!)

OhNoNotimAgain
Lemon Slice
Posts: 437
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:51 am
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 65 times

Re: HYP against benchmarks: 9 years on

#219454

Postby OhNoNotimAgain » May 4th, 2019, 9:30 am

Data geeks might be interested in this site which has a wide variety of indices that can apparently be downloaded.

https://thefreedomindex.com/indexes/

Gengulphus
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2938
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:17 am
Been thanked: 1500 times

Re: HYP against benchmarks: 9 years on

#219457

Postby Gengulphus » May 4th, 2019, 9:38 am

Arborbridge wrote:Being interested in income, I didn't start keeping records of accumulation units. I can say that the XIRR from August 2006 for the HYP is 5.83% and for the ITs from November 2008 is 9.3%. XIRR isn't very good when the starting dates are different, but this probably shows which way the wind's blowing on TR comparison.

I am living on the income so most of it is drawdown - what isn't drawn is re-invested.

A question: do you keep the three components (HYP, ITs and OEICs) mixed together in the same broker account(s), or in separate broker accounts such that any particular account only contains some or all of a single component? If it's the latter, you'll have a separate cash balance for each component, so that in particular, you'll have an easy record not just of what income you withdrew, but also of which component you withdrew it from; if it's the former, that will be a lot more work to work out and there will probably be some arbitrary decisions involved in working it out that have a significant effect on the results. And the point of asking the question is simply that I can suggest ways to fairly quickly and easily get a reasonably good total-return comparison if you have the separate component-by-component cash balances, but there's not much point if there's a lot of work involved in getting them and they're very unreliable because of arbitrary decisions!

Sorry about the question being rather awkward to phrase well - the point being that if for instance you had an ISA account, a SIPP account and an unsheltered dealing account, and one held just the HYP, another just the ITs and the third just the OEICs, you would have the three different cash balances, but if each of them held bits of all three components, you wouldn't without quite a bit of work and arbitrary decisions. So it's not just a question of how many accounts you've got, but also how you're using them.

Gengulphus

Arborbridge
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3144
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 603 times
Been thanked: 1020 times

Re: HYP against benchmarks: 9 years on

#219496

Postby Arborbridge » May 4th, 2019, 12:34 pm

Gengulphus wrote:
Arborbridge wrote:Being interested in income, I didn't start keeping records of accumulation units. I can say that the XIRR from August 2006 for the HYP is 5.83% and for the ITs from November 2008 is 9.3%. XIRR isn't very good when the starting dates are different, but this probably shows which way the wind's blowing on TR comparison.

I am living on the income so most of it is drawdown - what isn't drawn is re-invested.

A question: do you keep the three components (HYP, ITs and OEICs) mixed together in the same broker account(s), or in separate broker accounts such that any particular account only contains some or all of a single component? If it's the latter, you'll have a separate cash balance for each component, so that in particular, you'll have an easy record not just of what income you withdrew, but also of which component you withdrew it from; if it's the former, that will be a lot more work to work out and there will probably be some arbitrary decisions involved in working it out that have a significant effect on the results. And the point of asking the question is simply that I can suggest ways to fairly quickly and easily get a reasonably good total-return comparison if you have the separate component-by-component cash balances, but there's not much point if there's a lot of work involved in getting them and they're very unreliable because of arbitrary decisions!

Sorry about the question being rather awkward to phrase well - the point being that if for instance you had an ISA account, a SIPP account and an unsheltered dealing account, and one held just the HYP, another just the ITs and the third just the OEICs, you would have the three different cash balances, but if each of them held bits of all three components, you wouldn't without quite a bit of work and arbitrary decisions. So it's not just a question of how many accounts you've got, but also how you're using them.

Gengulphus


The HYP and ITs mixed up in three broker accounts. The OEICS are only in one particular account, ith HL as it happens.

But my XIRR spreadsheets haven't been told anything about broker accounts so they know nothing. The spreadsheet thinks dividends are all withdrawn in their entirety, which isn't what I do is real life, so the XIRR is a theoretical value. No cash is held overnight!

Arb.

funduffer
Lemon Slice
Posts: 339
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 12:11 pm
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 162 times

Re: HYP against benchmarks: 9 years on

#219618

Postby funduffer » May 5th, 2019, 9:18 am

Gengulphus wrote:A question: do you keep the three components (HYP, ITs and OEICs) mixed together in the same broker account(s), or in separate broker accounts such that any particular account only contains some or all of a single component? If it's the latter, you'll have a separate cash balance for each component, so that in particular, you'll have an easy record not just of what income you withdrew, but also of which component you withdrew it from; if it's the former, that will be a lot more work to work out and there will probably be some arbitrary decisions involved in working it out that have a significant effect on the results. And the point of asking the question is simply that I can suggest ways to fairly quickly and easily get a reasonably good total-return comparison if you have the separate component-by-component cash balances, but there's not much point if there's a lot of work involved in getting them and they're very unreliable because of arbitrary decisions!

Sorry about the question being rather awkward to phrase well - the point being that if for instance you had an ISA account, a SIPP account and an unsheltered dealing account, and one held just the HYP, another just the ITs and the third just the OEICs, you would have the three different cash balances, but if each of them held bits of all three components, you wouldn't without quite a bit of work and arbitrary decisions. So it's not just a question of how many accounts you've got, but also how you're using them.

Gengulphus


I understand the problem you are referring to.

I have my IT portfolio and HYP in the same broker account, and dividend cash from both is accumulated in that account. If I re-invest any of this cash, I would have to decide whether the cash came from the IT dividends or the HYP dividends. This is one reason why I use income units, as in that system all dividends are withdrawn and then either spent or re-invested in either portfolio as new cash.

For TR, I separately, in a spreadsheet, look at the capital increase/decrease and total dividends returned for each share, and then add them together. I hope this is correct.

I don't bother with XRR.

FD

Arborbridge
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3144
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:33 am
Has thanked: 603 times
Been thanked: 1020 times

Re: HYP against benchmarks: 9 years on

#219718

Postby Arborbridge » May 6th, 2019, 7:12 am

funduffer wrote:I have my IT portfolio and HYP in the same broker account, and dividend cash from both is accumulated in that account. If I re-invest any of this cash, I would have to decide whether the cash came from the IT dividends or the HYP dividends. This is one reason why I use income units, as in that system all dividends are withdrawn and then either spent or re-invested in either portfolio as new cash.

For TR, I separately, in a spreadsheet, look at the capital increase/decrease and total dividends returned for each share, and then add them together. I hope this is correct.

I don't bother with XRR.

FD


My understand is that you don't need to do that for accumulation units. You can put all the transactions from different brokers on one spreadsheet including the cash input from dividends. When cash is needed to buy more shares there will be some cash from dividends, but maybe some new cash required too - in which case just issue new units with fictitious capital at the current unit price. What happens in multiple brokers accounts just carries on doing whatever it's doing in real life, and the accumulation spreadsheet carries on in a parallel virtual world of its own. It does not have to be "real", just to reflect what would have happened. When one compares charts from brokers of fund progress for "income re-invested" they are likewise not real but a projection of what would have happened.


Arb.


Return to “High Yield Shares & Strategies - general”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest