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PATISSERIE HOLDINGS (CAKE)

Discuss Stock buying Shares, tips and ideas for stock market dealing
Carmensfella
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Re: PATISSERIE HOLDINGS (CAKE)

#178529

Postby Carmensfella » November 6th, 2018, 1:57 pm

These issues at PV just proves up the fact that shareholders need far more say over the audit of companies and really should have the ability to take legal action when audits prove to have been inadequate.

Here is a report on responses of @UKshareholders & @ShareSocUK to the CMA watchdog review of the audit sector http://www.cityam.com/268376/give-share ... hdog-urged

This will be covered in our one hour session on Patisserie Valerie at MelloLondon at the end of this month http://melloevents.com/mello-london/

David

johnhemming
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Re: PATISSERIE HOLDINGS (CAKE)

#178532

Postby johnhemming » November 6th, 2018, 2:04 pm

Dod101 wrote: but when it came to voting the number of shareholders (rather than the number of shares) for the Court meeting they felt unable to comply with that instruction and it was suggested that only a share certificate could do that. Now well off topic but this should be pursued.

Dod

This issue was that the nominee company was the one entry on the shareholders register even if there were thousands of beneficial holders.

Dod101
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Re: PATISSERIE HOLDINGS (CAKE)

#178542

Postby Dod101 » November 6th, 2018, 2:41 pm

johnhemming wrote:
Dod101 wrote: but when it came to voting the number of shareholders (rather than the number of shares) for the Court meeting they felt unable to comply with that instruction and it was suggested that only a share certificate could do that. Now well off topic but this should be pursued.

Dod

This issue was that the nominee company was the one entry on the shareholders register even if there were thousands of beneficial holders.


Yes I know that. As I said above 'The number of shareholders (rather than the number of shares ) for the Court Meeting'

Dod

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Re: PATISSERIE HOLDINGS (CAKE)

#178543

Postby johnhemming » November 6th, 2018, 2:45 pm

Dod101 wrote:
johnhemming wrote:This issue was that the nominee company was the one entry on the shareholders register even if there were thousands of beneficial holders.


Yes I know that. As I said above 'The number of shareholders (rather than the number of shares ) for the Court Meeting'

What I mean is that if say you have 10 shareholders all held with the same nominee company and 4 wanted to vote one way representing 500,000 shares and 6 wanted to vote the other way representing say 400,000 shares then the individual shares votes can be cast.

However, there is also a single vote representing the nominee company and they cannot really decide how to cast that unless all the shareholders held through their name were unanimous.

Dod101
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Re: PATISSERIE HOLDINGS (CAKE)

#178546

Postby Dod101 » November 6th, 2018, 2:55 pm

Well of course auditors are in theory employed by the shareholders but it is actually the Directors of the company who in practice appoint them. This has been well aired at UKSA and ShareSoc and I feel it is best for them to take this up but for members of this forum to join one or the other if they have not already done so, so that they can speak from a stronger base.

The other point that I think is important is for those holding shares via nominees (and of course that includes anyone with a SIPP or an ISA as well as those who chose to in a Trading Account) to have their name on the share register so that as of right they are allowed to vote independently and receive all info direct from the company re the AGM and other circulars. To have to be beholden to the nominee is a nonsense, the point being made by YeeWo. The technology is there and I suspect that this is what was being offered by Unilever when it proposed a European version of nominees for what would have been its Dutch share register.

Unless shareholders do something about it nothing will happen so join one or other of the two shareholder organisations and in addition engage with your MP. The trouble is your MP like mine will I have no doubt be too absorbed in other matters at the moment, but they always will be so lobby them anyway!

Dod

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Re: PATISSERIE HOLDINGS (CAKE)

#178549

Postby Dod101 » November 6th, 2018, 3:00 pm

johnhemming wrote:What I mean is that if say you have 10 shareholders all held with the same nominee company and 4 wanted to vote one way representing 500,000 shares and 6 wanted to vote the other way representing say 400,000 shares then the individual shares votes can be cast.

However, there is also a single vote representing the nominee company and they cannot really decide how to cast that unless all the shareholders held through their name were unanimous.


Yes I agree and we agree! That of course is part of the problem with the nominee system. Fortunately it will not crop up too often but when it does it is important because Court meetings by definition are used only when some form of reconstruction is being proposed, such as an agreement with creditors, a takeover or a merger. That is one reason why the pint made by YeeWo and on which I have just commented is so important.

Dod

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Re: PATISSERIE HOLDINGS (CAKE)

#178651

Postby PinkDalek » November 6th, 2018, 11:38 pm

Dod101 wrote:Well of course auditors are in theory employed by the shareholders but it is actually the Directors of the company who in practice appoint them. ...


Not sure I’d use the word “employ” though, your later appoint is more accurate. It is a long time since I looked at the Companies Act process and have therefore refreshed my memory.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/20 ... ection/489

I wonder when was the last time quoted company Shareholders appointed auditors that were not proposed to them by the board. Has there ever been an either/ or choice given to shareholders that anyone knows of (rather than the tendering beauty parade so much enjoyed*** by the board)?


*** Opinions may differ on my description.

Itsallaguess
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Re: PATISSERIE HOLDINGS (CAKE)

#178658

Postby Itsallaguess » November 7th, 2018, 4:42 am

Carmensfella wrote:
These issues at PV just proves up the fact that shareholders need far more say over the audit of companies and really should have the ability to take legal action when audits prove to have been inadequate.

Here is a report on responses of @UKshareholders & @ShareSocUK to the CMA watchdog review of the audit sector http://www.cityam.com/268376/give-share ... hdog-urged

This will be covered in our one hour session on Patisserie Valerie at MelloLondon at the end of this month.


Hi David,

On a slightly different topic, although unfortunately related on an investment-performance aspect, are you planning on making any comments regarding what's happened at Crawshaw?

I remember they were heavily promoted by you and they also had representations at some of your Mello evenings, so it would be great to hear your thoughts on what happened to them to deliver such a fall from grace?

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ion-stores

https://yhoo.it/2yWDHnk

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Moderator Message:
I actually wrote a PM to Carmensfella on the PatVal matter ( I had missed that they were also heavily pro-Crawshaw) and a couple of other TLF-relevant topics, and I can see that he has yet to read it. I would be grateful if people could bring this to his attention and ask him to check his TLF PMs and respond. regards, dspp

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Re: PATISSERIE HOLDINGS (CAKE)

#179472

Postby PinkDalek » November 11th, 2018, 1:33 pm

dspp wrote:
Moderator Message:
I actually wrote a PM to Carmensfella on the PatVal matter ( I had missed that they were also heavily pro-Crawshaw) and a couple of other TLF-relevant topics, and I can see that he has yet to read it. I would be grateful if people could bring this to his attention and ask him to check his TLF PMs and respond. regards, dspp


I'm unclear why you are writing as a Mod, rather than as an ordinary poster, but who are the "they" highlighted above?

Dod101
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Re: PATISSERIE HOLDINGS (CAKE)

#179475

Postby Dod101 » November 11th, 2018, 1:40 pm

'They' is I think referring to the Mello set up which was promoting Crawshaw quite heavily at one point.

Dod

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Re: PATISSERIE HOLDINGS (CAKE)

#179477

Postby PinkDalek » November 11th, 2018, 1:48 pm

Dod101 wrote:'They' is I think referring to the Mello set up which was promoting Crawshaw quite heavily at one point.

Dod


Aha, I see. I didn't know Mello promoted anyone but have yet to attend. I thought they provided platforms for companies to make "representations" (using Itsa's word).

Dod101
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Re: PATISSERIE HOLDINGS (CAKE)

#179478

Postby Dod101 » November 11th, 2018, 2:12 pm

Yours is probably a more accurate interpretation. I have not attended any either but I recall via Mello, Crawshaw was heavily promoted some time ago. I took a look and decided it was not for me (not because I am a genius but I just thought that an ever expanding chain of butchers would be unlikely to be able to defy the retail marketplace for ever.)

Dod

dspp
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Re: PATISSERIE HOLDINGS (CAKE)

#179488

Postby dspp » November 11th, 2018, 3:13 pm

PD,

Your interpretation re Mello & Crawshaws is correct, my comment about Mello & Crawshaws was really an aside. Personally I never thought Crawshaws had enough special sauce to escape the general retail issues (and I do about half of my meat purchases at a local independent butcher). I felt differently over PatVal as I thought they were building sufficient scale & supply chain integration to ultimately become a take over target. I did not realise PatVal were cooking the books, hence my error in investing. I am hoping there will be a class action lawsuit against the auditors, and possibly the IPO team, at some point which the FF portfolio can join in on (though Mishcon who are the normal ambulance chaser have been silent - are they conflicted ?).

There is a Mod-specific point that have PM'd Carmensfella over, and have yet to have a response. I can see that he had not then, and still has not, opened the PM. Hence my asking anyone who meets him, or any of the other Mello organisers, to bring this to his attention. It is a PM that is on behalf of Mods in general.

Sorry about any confusion.

regards, dspp

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Re: PATISSERIE HOLDINGS (CAKE)

#179501

Postby PinkDalek » November 11th, 2018, 3:58 pm

Going a little bit away from Share ideas ...

dspp wrote:

There is a Mod-specific point that have PM'd Carmensfella over, and have yet to have a response. I can see that he had not then, and still has not, opened the PM. Hence my asking anyone who meets him, or any of the other Mello organisers, to bring this to his attention. It is a PM that is on behalf of Mods in general.

Sorry about any confusion.

regards, dspp


Thanks for the explanation and I can now understand what the Mod issue may now be (despite you quite rightly not spelling it out in your replies).

There may be one or two at the forthcoming Lemon Fool London Social who know David personally and could point him to this Topic. Failing that, you or other Mods/Admins could always attempt to make contact with him through Georgina at Mello via the the links above. I do have one of David's email addresses but don't feel it apt that I direct him here, especially knowing he had a substantial holding in Crawshaw at some stage (I can't recall if it was disclosable or not). Does not The Lemon Fool hold his registration email address in any event?

Come what may, I hope The Lemon Fool cuts him some slack on whatever the Mod issue might be (which I imagine they will).

dspp
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Re: PATISSERIE HOLDINGS (CAKE)

#180590

Postby dspp » November 15th, 2018, 3:42 pm

The chief executive of the company that owns beleaguered cake chain Patisserie Valerie has resigned with immediate effect. Paul May's departure as the boss of Patisserie Holdings comes a month after a fraud inquiry began into a multimillion-pound black hole in its finances. He has been replaced by Steve Francis, an executive with a "proven track record of rapid operational performance improvements".

etc https://news.sky.com/story/patisserie-v ... s-11554878

ADrunkenMarcus
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Re: PATISSERIE HOLDINGS (CAKE)

#180608

Postby ADrunkenMarcus » November 15th, 2018, 4:43 pm

Let's hope the new guy can get it up.

Best wishes

Mark.

dspp
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Re: PATISSERIE HOLDINGS (CAKE)

#181856

Postby dspp » November 21st, 2018, 9:40 am

UK accounting watchdog says looking at Patisserie Valerie

Britain’s accounting watchdog said on Friday it was looking carefully into the announcement from Patisserie Holdings (CAKEP.L) of a potential accounting fraud. “We are looking into this matter carefully and will give full consideration as to whether further action is appropriate as more facts become available,” the Financial Reporting Council (FRC) said in an emailed statement.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-patis ... KKCN1MM0ZN

Full FRC statement:
https://www.frc.org.uk/news/november-20 ... nancial-st

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Re: PATISSERIE HOLDINGS (CAKE)

#191470

Postby ADrunkenMarcus » January 6th, 2019, 12:26 pm

It's interesting to compare the sordid reality with what was being reported before the exposure. And we don't know what the reality is.

Forecasts were for CAKE to end 2018 with net cash of £33.3 million and yet, in fact, it had substantial net borrowings rather than the net £28 million surplus reported earlier in the year. We know earnings will be down massively.

Forecasts were for EPS to rise from 18.7p in 2018 to 22.4p in 2020; the dividend to rise from 4.4p in 2018 to 6p in 2020; free cash flow to rise from £14.4 million in 2018 to £18.4 million in 2020; and net surplus to rise from £33.3 million to £57 million during the same period.

Had the company's true condition (in terms of net cash being net debt) not been exposed in 2018, then imagine the clamour we might have seen in 2019 or 2020 for special dividends from a huge, growing cash pile that didn't exist!

I wonder when the shares will trade freely again? Any thoughts?

Best wishes

Mark.

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Re: PATISSERIE HOLDINGS (CAKE)

#194054

Postby scrumpyjack » January 16th, 2019, 5:45 pm

It's far far worse than previously thought, with thousands of false accounting entries!

https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/stock-marke ... ly-thought

Some really must have wanted to have their cake and eat it, as the EU would say.

dspp
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Re: PATISSERIE HOLDINGS (CAKE)

#194075

Postby dspp » January 16th, 2019, 7:24 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:It's far far worse than previously thought, with thousands of false accounting entries!

https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/stock-marke ... ly-thought

Some really must have wanted to have their cake and eat it, as the EU would say.


What is odd is that so far there is not a sniff of a class action lawsuit being touted around by the usual suspects.

"........the misstatement of its accounts was extensive, involving very significant manipulation of the balance sheet and profit and loss accounts.”

Luke Johnson, the multimillionaire chairman of the business, was forced to pump £20m of his own cash into the stricken firm to keep it afloat. Other shareholders put up £15m. .......

In a 12 October statement it said underlying profits might have been only £12m in the year to 19 September, compared with £26m reported a year before. The new update says that £12m was an overestimate."


https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ounts-cafe

- dspp


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