Qatar World Cup

[pje16]

and even imagining how Kane's feeling on that coach home right now,
Itsallaguess

OK, he missed an important penalty, but to send him home by coach instead of flying with the rest of the team seems rather cruel.

--kiloran

He's giving his agent time to finalise the pizza hut commercial deal.

he took the wrong advice
https://filebin.net/uvmh2cf25n2b01ew/VI ... WA0000.mp4

[Dod101]

Having had 24 hours to reflect on this. So much could be said, blame and praise can be given, but what's the point. Only have a few things to say. Southgate should stay on(possibly) but is he too much of a nice guy and his own history must also haunt him? Is he too soft, do we need an Eddie Jones here(tough, not that did him any good, but you know what I mean) so that we are taught to be invincible and show nobody any respect, based on the obvious incredible people that we have overall, with at least 16 players which on paper had(have) far more talent than any other team.

This was a golden opportunity missed. Lloris and Kane, knowing each other so well, didn't help matters, and personally, I think someone else should have taken that penalty, but as I said, what's the point in blaming anyone. Southgate might want to go anyway, so much pressure, and perhaps manage a Premier Team down the road. Don't know who would or could replace him at this stage. What I do know or think I know, was that we actually had it in us to go all the way this time, as they started falling like flies, clearing a direct path for glory.


Will I see England winning another World Cup in my lifetime? Live in hope and running out of time, but this penalty business which I kept saying please don't let this go to penalties, well I forgot that we have them also in normal time and yet again, I heard, we played better in the second half. I would like to see a first half where we just put everyone to hell and back. When is this going to happen?

Forgive the slight rant. Still in mourning.

Were I English I would feel the right to rant as well. England after all have a very wealthy Premier League with lots of foreign talent managing club sides. England should be a side to fear. Why not? In the first half of the game last night, we were far too tentative. We need to get out there and attack, attack. That is how to win at football. Far too understanding. Just get on with it. (When I say, ‘we’ I mean England of course)

Southgate has done a huge amount for England but I doubt that he has the ruthless attitude that is needed to win the World Cup. Someone though, surely can for England and the Premier League.

Dod

[Lootman]

Were I English I would feel the right to rant as well. England after all have a very wealthy Premier League with lots of foreign talent managing club sides. England should be a side to fear. Why not? In the first half of the game last night, we were far too tentative. We need to get out there and attack, attack. That is how to win at football. Far too understanding. Just get on with it. (When I say, ‘we’ I mean England of course)

Southgate has done a huge amount for England but I doubt that he has the ruthless attitude that is needed to win the World Cup. Someone though, surely can for England and the Premier League.

One big difference is that the clubs can buy players but the nation cannot. So how many of the top club managers would want a job where you are basically stuck with homegrown players whom you cannot upgrade? Could Southgate even get a job managing a top six club side?

[pje16]

One big difference is that the clubs can buy players but the nation cannot.

In the same respect why are foreign managers allowed to manage national sides.
It makes no sense.

[monabri]

Both teams "played the game" and didn't resort to play acting (eg Argentina). There were a couple of yellow cards but the game was clean (other than the push in the back leading to the penalty which the ref somehow didn't see, oh, and the foul on Saka which the ref somehow didn't see).

So...I don't begrudge 12-man France the win (did...I....actually....just...say..that..about..France ).

I hope Southgate stays in post but there does indeed need to be a bit more backbone infused into the team and they need to stop passing the ball backwards! The team appears weak in defence IMHO. They seem "unsure".

Southgate is probably licking his wounds and needs to get over it...he also has to visibly show he is "in mourning".

[didds]

Southgate has done a huge amount for England but I doubt that he has the ruthless attitude that is needed to win the World Cup. Someone though, surely can for England and the Premier League.

I don't follow football at all so fair enough i cant really comment.

but i read something elsewhere today that (assuming its true) may or may not be pertinent...

Allegedly only Alf Ramsey was a more successful England coach/manager.

If that is true, for all Southgate's alleged lack of ruthlessness, where since Ramsey does that leave

Revie
Greenwood
Robson
Taylor
Venables
Hoddle
Keegan
Eriksson
Maclaren
Capello
Hodgson


presumably they also lacked ruthlessness?

But like I say, I don't know nothing about football. I do however see a lot of England managers that have appeared to have achieved a lot less.

Well - for the men's team of course.

[Howyoudoin]

My thoughts:

England played well against France. Not outstanding but well. France are the World Champions. At no point did they make us look stupid or that we did not deserve to be there.

Harry Kane is an amazing player. We are very lucky to have him. Most Countries in the World would love to have Kane in their team. Did he ‘bottle’ that second penalty or feel the pressure taking it against his team goalkeeper? Did he feck. He just missed it. Is no one allowed to make a mistake anymore without someone attributing it to nerves? Don’t be silly.

Finally, Southgate. If the FA don’t recognise what he has done for this Country by extending his contract before he has the chance to resign, they are idiots.

HYD

[BobbyD]

Southgate has done a huge amount for England but I doubt that he has the ruthless attitude that is needed to win the World Cup. Someone though, surely can for England and the Premier League.

I don't follow football at all so fair enough i cant really comment.

but i read something elsewhere today that (assuming its true) may or may not be pertinent...

Allegedly only Alf Ramsey was a more successful England coach/manager.

If that is true, for all Southgate's alleged lack of ruthlessness, where since Ramsey does that leave

Revie
Greenwood
Robson
Taylor
Venables
Hoddle
Keegan
Eriksson
Maclaren
Capello
Hodgson

'Success' is very difficult to quantify in football. You could argue that with a 100% win rate Sam Allardyce is the most successful England manager of all time. Then again you might argue, controversially, that being forced to resign after only 67 days in the job after being caught in a sting by undercover reporters was an unmitigated failure...

The two major debates when it comes to the English national team is which squad were most overhyped by zealous fans and media, and which manager underperformed most badly. Honestly you could throw a blanket over most of the contenders and use the time much more productively doing something else.

Suffice to say Southgate isn't a great manager, if he was frankly he wouldn't be managing England, he'd have a full time job at the top of the prem, or La Liga, or even Serie A but he's a less useless than Allardyce or Hodgson, which is a low bar. But the question you should always ask with a manager is if not him then who? England aren't going to get a top tier manager, unless they want a nice semi-retirement job, so Southgate is probably about par for what England can expect.

[AsleepInYorkshire]

Merry Christmas - The England Team in Action

Be patient as the real story materialises

AiY(D)

[didds]

'Success' is very difficult to quantify in football. You could argue that with a 100% win rate Sam Allardyce is the most successful England manager of all time. Then again you might argue, controversially, that being forced to resign after only 67 days in the job after being caught in a sting by undercover reporters was an unmitigated failure...

The two major debates when it comes to the English national team is which squad were most overhyped by zealous fans and media, and which manager underperformed most badly. Honestly you could throw a blanket over most of the contenders and use the time much more productively doing something else.

Suffice to say Southgate isn't a great manager, if he was frankly he wouldn't be managing England, he'd have a full time job at the top of the prem, or La Liga, or even Serie A but he's a less useless than Allardyce or Hodgson, which is a low bar. But the question you should always ask with a manager is if not him then who? England aren't going to get a top tier manager, unless they want a nice semi-retirement job, so Southgate is probably about par for what England can expect.

Really good reply BobbyD - thanks.

"Success" in the context the article I read was measured in stages of international competitions - QFs, SFs, Finals etc. You'd know better than I what they may or may not be, but there's this QF, the final of the euros, 3rd place (equivalent to SF I guess) in the UEFA Nations League thing, and the last WC SF.

Bobby Robson made a WC SF, Venables a Euro SF and Ramsey a WC winner.


Of course you are right - other definitions of "success" would provide other metrics/KPFs maybe.

WRT the "overhyped by zealous fans and media" that was certainly my perception - until Southgate's start and the 2018 world cup. I would concur up to then it did seem that one was bombarded with "England will win it this time", 1966 all over again [1], "its coming home" became tedious... ISTR baddiel and skinner saying something like they wish they'd never recorded it 9or similar). But possibly because nobody gave the England squad in 2018 any chance whatsoever that ridiculous hype seemed to disappear. All credit then to SG that the managed his squad to a SF place as "no hopers" when the "better" previous squads hadn't even achieved that (fair praise to Robson in 1986).


As for replacement - bang on. Its the situation the RFU sort of found itself in. By all means get rid of the coach - but who of *sough* international class is available NOW to replace them? By definition anybody "any good" is already in a post (no disrespect to Steve Borthwick intended). England
football had tried top flight foreign managers before and done no better/worse than Southgate. So when push comes to shove is it REALLY the manager's international credentials? or his/her ability to gel a bunch of players to be a better sum of parts - which Southgate when it comes to the crunch (international competitions) seems to have achieved more than any other England manager, including Ramsey overall.

I'll shut up now and go back to chatting about rugby union and cricket

didds

[1] as a rugby fan, its getting like that in English RU with some demographics. Banging on about 2003 - its was 20 years ago - time to forget it. Yes there were (losing) finals in 1991, 2007 and 2019 - but you are only as good as your last game or at least tournament - time to move on!

[BobbyD]

"Success" in the context the article I read was measured in stages of international competitions - QFs, SFs, Finals etc. You'd know better than I what they may or may not be, but there's this QF, the final of the euros, 3rd place (equivalent to SF I guess) in the UEFA Nations League thing, and the last WC SF.

Bobby Robson made a WC SF, Venables a Euro SF and Ramsey a WC winner.


Of course you are right - other definitions of "success" would provide other metrics/KPFs maybe.

Well I'd argue that to assess a manager's performance you'd have to look at the raw materials he has available. One of the major questions raised about Pep Guardiola for instance is that very successful though he has been he has never not had a bigger toolbox than his domestic competition. It's also often pointed out that he's never won the Champions League without Lionel Messi in his side. So a straight trophy comparison is obviously an unfair metric. Not winning the CL with Man City might be classified as a failure whilst simply qualifying Atalanta three times on the trot let alone getting out of the group stage twice and making a QF might be thought of as an extraordinary achievement.

Which brings us back to the other major 'England' argument, who had the least overrated squad...

It also runs in to the problem that meaningful international games are rare as hens teeth, there is little consistency of opposition, and that football being a low scoring game is quite prone to being effectively decided by a bad offside call.

Club football is slightly better placed given the higher number of games, consistency of opposition, and ability to take a decent swing at, and weight for, money spent on players (TCO - wages + transfer fees) and clubs still make some ...lets say 'adventurous' appointments and then dump managers during the first wobble in results ...but I suspect making a serious attempt to judge managers on international record is mostly a fools errand. In broad strokes you can probably spot the total duds, but then you could probably have picked them out of the line up the day before they took the job as well...

[nimnarb]

Messi on a different planet plus that’s how you take a Penalty! Even if goalie got a hand to it, the force would half blown him and ball through the back of the net and ended up in Brixton!

Also watching the Argies play they want every ball and they don’t pass sideways or backwards.. it’s attack all the way. We could learn something here as we have the players and someone needs to give them the desire and drive and evil intent to shove such a huge stake up their asses that they feel a burning so intense that it only stops when goals are scored. Honestly not sure if Southgate has it in him!
Obviously still in mourning!!! Oh what could have been.

[pje16]

Oh what could have been.

Indeed, Spain and Germany out on our side of the draw and Argentina are not the best of teams (bar Messi)
This WAS one of our best chances....

[swill453]

It's not over yet.

If Morocco and Croatia each get 4 players sent off in the 3rd place playoff, then France and Argentina also have 4 players each sent off in the final, then they'll all be disqualified.

The Cup will go to the quarter-finalist with the best disciplinary record - yes, you've guessed it...

Scott.

[pje16]

It's not over yet.

If Morocco and Croatia each get 4 players sent off in the 3rd place playoff, then France and Argentina also have 4 players each sent off in the final, then they'll all be disqualified.

The Cup will go to the quarter-finalist with the best disciplinary record - yes, you've guessed it...

Scott.

and the odds on that are the same as it being awarded to me

[nimnarb]

It's not over yet.

If Morocco and Croatia each get 4 players sent off in the 3rd place playoff, then France and Argentina also have 4 players each sent off in the final, then they'll all be disqualified.

The Cup will go to the quarter-finalist with the best disciplinary record - yes, you've guessed it...

Scott.

Nice one!! But it’s the same old story, wishful thinking but got me thinking on what you said. I know we didn’t have one booking up to our last game and then perhaps a couple, the only team in the whole tournament with that record. Is this telling us something? Prancing Wallies!
Could have at least roughed up a few with some discreet head butts. Subtle neck rabbit punches. Where’s Eric Cantona when you need him,
oh damn he was Froggy as well. -))))))))

[Lootman]

Could have at least roughed up a few with some discreet head butts. Subtle neck rabbit punches. Where’s Eric Cantona when you need him, oh damn he was Froggy as well. -))))))))

And my favourite, eye gouging. Personally I am hoping that Sunday is a really hostile, violent and volatile encounter, with a variety of handbags, histrionics and cards from what are surely the two biggest sets of drama queens in the competition.

If England can't be in the final then it should be a fight to the death between the two teams I hate the most.

[pje16]

Could have at least roughed up a few with some discreet head butts. Subtle neck rabbit punches. Where’s Eric Cantona when you need him,
oh damn he was Froggy as well. -))))))))

Bring Vinnie Jones out of retirement

[Hallucigenia]

Well - I said a while back that going out in the quarter finals wouldn't mean England were a bad team, just as reaching the final - which there was a good chance of - would mean that England was suddenly an amazing team. There's no shame in losing by the odd goal to the world champions, and if you played that game a hundred times, England would probably win 30 of them. But that's just the rub of the green.

Anyway, more relevant is that fact that the French dressing room seems to be going down with MERS, a relative of Covid with a 35% death rate among reported cases. Now that may be an overestimate as mild cases are being missed, and I'm sure that the French team will have access to the very best medical science has to offer, but it's still serious :

https://www.upi.com/Sports_News/Soccer/ ... 671136498/
A flu-like illness has affected several players on the French national soccer team as it competes in the World Cup in Qatar. The players have fallen ill amid growing concern that Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS), otherwise known as "Camel Flu," is spreading in Qatar.

Midfielder Adrien Rabiot and defender Dayot Upamecano were isolated after showing symptoms and sat out France's 2-0 semifinal victory over Morocco on Wednesday. On Friday, team France coach Didier Deschamps confirmed that another French player, Kingsley Coman, had come down with symptoms.

[Leothebear]

Predictions?

I'll dive in. A very close tight game, perhaps a bit of an anti-climax. France edge it on penalties.

Not a result I'll celebrate. The only possible outcome worse than France winning, would be Germany or if I really plunge into a fantasy world - Scotland.