In defence of the VAR process in football...

[Itsallaguess]

‎
There's a great deal of news around the use of VAR in football at the moment, and I'd like to make a plea in it's defence.

VAR isn't the problem. Some of the people involved with VAR are the problem, and those people need to go, not VAR...

Here's the recorded VAR process following what was initially a recent disallowed goal by Joelinton against West Ham, where the initial decision was off-side, but where the VAR process calmly and professionally over-ruled that initial decision, and the referee went on to correctly rule that the goal stood -

https://twitter.com/NewcastleFansTV/status/1658178559897133058

The referee's body, PGMOL, have today released a similar recording for the recent shambolic VAR process that was involved in denying a clearly valid Luis Diaz goal against Spurs -

https://www.premierleague.com/news/3718057?sf269410963=1

I would hope that no-one can argue with the way VAR was implemented in the first video. Communication was clear, and professional. Everyone played their role in the whole process to a very high standard, and decisions were made, verified, and then communicated clearly and directly, with repeated emphasis on the key elements of information, in a way that in my view gives huge credit to the VAR process in that particular case.

The second video doesn't show up the VAR process. It shows up the in-room VAR personnel, and the utterly shambolic and unprofessional way that they chose to implement and communicate those same protocols.

The football bodies need to promote the good work that VAR is doing, as we can clearly see in the first link above, and make it clear that where similar standards are not, or cannot, be met by others working in the same roles, that they will be removed from the VAR process, and replaced by people that can.

VAR isn't the problem, and the almost blanket-disapproval in the current media is in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater in my opinion.

Let's stick with it, and improve it where it's clear that it can be improved.

Let's promote it when it's done well, and let's shine a light on it when it goes wrong. The game needs VAR to work, and it clearly can work. Where it doesn't, let's focus on why that's been the case, rather than having knee-jerk reactions against the technology itself.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Tedx]

Yes, VAR is a good thing - particularly when there's so much at stake. But when it fails, oh boy it fails big time.

Before you used to just have a replay and then and arguement in the pub and that was generally it. And the referee always had the excuse of being 'unsighted' or whatever. There's no escaping now though for match officials.

....but talking about the Spurs/Liverpool game in particular (and yes, it was a goal, no doubt about it)......from what I read, some people will have lost (and made) a lot of money on that deeply flawed decision. The biggest losers may well be Liverpool themselves come the end of the season if a title is missed or Champions League football isn't achieved (and the biggest winners might be Spurs!)

Are Liverpool just going to let this one slide (genuine question)?

[Itsallaguess]

Are Liverpool just going to let this one slide (genuine question)?

I think they're looking to make sure that this type of incident, where miscommunication and obvious lack of clarity in the whole VAR process has played such a significant role in the wrong decision being made, cannot happen under the same circumstances again.

The first video linked in my earlier post showed how it can and should work, and that should be the normal professional template we should expect to see and hear in these types of reviews.

I think Liverpool just want to make sure that the utter incompetence shown in the second VAR video cannot happen again. They'll begrudgingly take the hit if they can see concrete evidence that ‎VAR processes and standards will improve off the back of this particular shambles.

By the way, I do need to mention that even in the shambolic processes of the Spurs VAR-audio, the Replay Operator comes out of it as the one sane voice in the room. He maintains clarity throughout, and is the one that highlights the main VAR-guy's mistake at the earliest opportunity. He was also the lowest paid person in the whole process...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Arborbridge]

The problem with VAR is that it is promoting a very legalistic approach - you can't argue with it, but what is it doing to the game? Hair's breadth decisions about being offside strike me as absurd since they usually don't affect the following course of play. Likewise the handball rule can be equally absurd.
It gets a bit like discussing how many angels can stand on the head of a pin.

Where's the art, the skill, the judgement? The game was designed around the human scale and ability to discern the difference between being just the right side or the wrong side of a line. It wasn't intended to be molecular science.

And while they discuss these finer details which are smaller than the human ability to discern, no one seems to notice the bigger picture of professional fouls and real infringements which do effect the outcome of a match in a shocking way sometimes.

Arb.

[didds]

ditto really TMO/FPRO reviews in RU, and hawkeye and 3rd umpire reviews in cricket

[Arborbridge]

The way the offside rule is applied now can also destroy the game. I've seen brilliant goals disallowed because someone committed an offside breach by a centimeter about three minutes ago on the far side of the field that had absolutely no influence over the run of play.
Complete nonsense.
As I say, the rules were meant for human scale observation not to a resolution to this kind of scale - and while this is destroying the flow of the game, no one is clamping down on professional fouls that really affect the game.

The Women's game is even being beginning to be infected by the latter, which it wasn't five years ago.

I suspect the real driver of this legalistic approach to sport is money.

Arb.

[Tedx]

Klopp -

'He added: "I think the only outcome should be a replay. That's how it is, [although that] probably will not happen."

[Adamski]

I dislike VAR. It's should be canned.

They should poll the fans on the terraces and ask them if should keep it. I think it's disruptive, and undermines referees.

So glad it's not in the EFL. You should have a level playing field where every game from Sunday League to Man City, are under the same set of rules.

And let's face it, Jurgen Klopp wasn't complaining the numerous times, years of Mo Salah making theatrical dives (when they were top of the league). Its only the one decision which goes against which has LFC in meltdown.

I think it's far better to have the odd wrong decision. Those incorrect decisions will even themselves out over the season, and have a game without stop, start of VAR.

[Itsallaguess]

Klopp -

'He added: "I think the only outcome should be a replay. That's how it is, [although that] probably will not happen."

There's not much that Klopp has got wrong whilst he's been at Liverpool, but I think he's mistaken if he looks to take this issue down that particular path.

One thing I suppose we should all keep in mind regarding this particular issue though, is that it is pretty unique.

I don't have any issues with football decisions sometimes going one way, and sometimes going the other, and any fan will agree that generally, things do even themselves out over a full season.

The thing about this VAR fiasco though, is that the decision that VAR came to was completely miscommunicated to the referee on the pitch, and so there is a unique element to this particular issue, and I *think* that's the angle Klopp is taking with his position on this.

I still think he's wrong to head down the 'replay' route with it, but I don't think this particular incident can be lumped in with the general 'some you win, some you lose' issues that all football fans learn to live with quite quickly within their enjoyment of the game...

If they'd got the call wrong, it would be much easier for everyone to live with. The issue is that they got the call right, but the referee wasn't in a position to be able to act on that correct call due to VAR's absolutely shocking and unprofessional approach to in-match communications whilst dealing with it...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Tedx]

I think hes just fishing - hence the 'probably wont happen'.

...just in case someone says 'yeah, good idea Jurgen. Let's do that'

[CryptoPlankton]

I don't have any issues with football decisions sometimes going one way, and sometimes going the other, and any fan will agree that generally, things do even themselves out over a full season.

Not this fan! Most teams won't stray too far from average luck, with some doing a little better, and others a little worse. But there will also be the odd outliers who are exceptionally lucky or unlucky, even over a full season, often with a significant impact on the outcome of their campaign. (If you get 20 people to toss a coin 38 times they won't all get 19 heads and 19 tails, and the odd one will be well off that.)

On the subject of VAR, I find it has done nothing to irradiate subjectivity in the decision making - it never ceases to amaze me how differently people can interpret the same image. And I'm not convinced by the technology used to assess hairline offside decisions using 2D images that are not taken in line with the play. Of course, it doesn't help that the rules for offside and handball (for penalties) seem to change with the wind. Frankly, apart from goal line decisions, I think the use of video seems to be causing as many problems as it's solving.

[Itsallaguess]

I don't have any issues with football decisions sometimes going one way, and sometimes going the other, and any fan will agree that generally, things do even themselves out over a full season.

Not this fan! Most teams won't stray too far from average luck, with some doing a little better, and others a little worse.

But there will also be the odd outliers who are exceptionally lucky or unlucky, even over a full season, often with a significant impact on the outcome of their campaign.

Tell me about it...

Did you know that it's been 301 Premier League games for Liverpool since an opposition player received a second yellow card?

The average two-yellow incidents for other PL teams over the same period?

5 to 15 second-yellow incidents for other teams over that 301 PL-game period...

A really quite staggering outlier...

And the last player to receive a second-yellow against Liverpool, 301 PL-games ago?

One Sadio Mané, who we went on to sign from Southampton 8 months later, and who went on to score over 100 goals for us, and subsequently won just about every cup there is with the club.

It's a crazy world...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[dealtn]

The way the offside rule is applied now can also destroy the game. I've seen brilliant goals disallowed because someone committed an offside breach by a centimeter about three minutes ago on the far side of the field that had absolutely no influence over the run of play.
Complete nonsense.

I suspect you are true. This is complete nonsense. Can you provide a single example?

[IShouldCoco]

The way the offside rule is applied now can also destroy the game. I've seen brilliant goals disallowed because someone committed an offside breach by a centimeter about three minutes ago on the far side of the field that had absolutely no influence over the run of play.
Complete nonsense.
As I say, the rules were meant for human scale observation not to a resolution to this kind of scale - and while this is destroying the flow of the game, no one is clamping down on professional fouls that really affect the game.

The Women's game is even being beginning to be infected by the latter, which it wasn't five years ago.

I suspect the real driver of this legalistic approach to sport is money.

Arb.

I couldn't agree more.

The gnomes of PGMOL seem to think they own the rules and every game should be forensically dissected for any minor transgression. The trouble is that cameras taking 30 frames per second and positioned 100m away, don't have the resolution to 'prove' an offside of an inch here or there. FFS, the width of the lines they 'draw' if scaled up, make it all a complete nonsense.

[IShouldCoco]

The problem with VAR is that it is promoting a very legalistic approach - you can't argue with it, but what is it doing to the game? Hair's breadth decisions about being offside strike me as absurd since they usually don't affect the following course of play. Likewise the handball rule can be equally absurd.
It gets a bit like discussing how many angels can stand on the head of a pin.

Where's the art, the skill, the judgement? The game was designed around the human scale and ability to discern the difference between being just the right side or the wrong side of a line. It wasn't intended to be molecular science.

And while they discuss these finer details which are smaller than the human ability to discern, no one seems to notice the bigger picture of professional fouls and real infringements which do effect the outcome of a match in a shocking way sometimes.

Arb.

It doesn't help that they make it up as they go along.

When Sheff United scored at Villa in the first post-Covid game, they came out with some tripe about the cameras being 'occluded' for the first time in 3,000 games blah blah blah/ In reality there were supposed to be 8 cameras and there were only 3 players on the goal line.
They never properly admitted why it didn't work, nor did they have the common sense to use VAR to get the right decision - it was all about their precious protocols.

Villa stayed up and Bournemouth went down on the strength of that error, but the PGMOL can rest easy, knowing no protocols were breached.

They are so precious about their own procedures and rules, they have completely lost a view of the big picture.

[dealtn]

The way the offside rule is applied now can also destroy the game. I've seen brilliant goals disallowed because someone committed an offside breach by a centimeter about three minutes ago on the far side of the field that had absolutely no influence over the run of play.
Complete nonsense.
As I say, the rules were meant for human scale observation not to a resolution to this kind of scale - and while this is destroying the flow of the game, no one is clamping down on professional fouls that really affect the game.

The Women's game is even being beginning to be infected by the latter, which it wasn't five years ago.

I suspect the real driver of this legalistic approach to sport is money.

Arb.

I couldn't agree more

The gnomes of PGMOL seem to think they own the rules and every game should be forensically dissected for any minor transgression. The trouble is that cameras taking 30 frames per second and positioned 100m away, don't have the resolution to 'prove' an offside of an inch here or there. FFS, the width of the lines they 'draw' if scaled up, make it all a complete nonsense.

If you couldn't agree more can you provide a single instance then?

[elkay]

Is this a case of where 2 wrongs could have made a right?

They knew less than a minute after the restart that there had been a humungous c-up. But the VAR official said it was too late. What would have happened if he had got on the radio to the ref and told him to stop the game, and corrected the error? Not the "done" thing, there would have been grief given, but I think the end result would have been more acceptable all round.

[simoan]

The worst thing about the incident is that it happened against Liverpool. If it had happened in the Luton v Burnley game on Tuesday there just wouldn’t have been anywhere near the same amount of fuss and hand-wringing - it’s the inequity of football that drives me mad. I remember watching Liverpool v Wolves last year when Wolves had a perfectly good winning goal disallowed because there was a problem with the VAR cameras at Anfield meaning the VAR officials could not overrule the on-field decision.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football ... i-28900818

Naturally, there was very little reaction because it was only Wolves, not the Mighty Reds. Personally, I’m sick of VAR slowing down games, undermining refs and invalidating great goals that are disallowed minutes after they’re scored because someone’s toenail was offside.

[Itsallaguess]

‎
It sounds like this particular incident is going to be a driver for long-term improvements into the VAR process -

From this weekend, PGMOL confirmed VARs will confirm the outcome of any decisions with their assistant VARs before notifying the on-field officials to prevent a repeat mistake.

PGMOL, which said it is committed to introducing a new VAR communication protocol as part of a review, believes the move will enhance the clarity of communication between the referee and VAR team in relation to decisions.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67027909

I think Pochettino sums the issue up nicely in the above article, and seems to align with my feelings expressed in my opening post on this thread -

Chelsea manager Mauricio Pochettino said he "trusts in the car but it is the driver that is the problem" amid the ongoing debate around the use of video assistant referee technology.

The real shame is that PGMOL couldn't foresee the need for much stricter communication protocols before this particular incident happened, but if it's a catalyst for long-term improvements then some good will have come out of it, at least.

I still think the biggest improvement would be to allow the crowd and live TV audience to hear the VAR communication channels whilst the decisions are being made, which, one would hope, would instantly put pressure on those involved in the VAR process to act more professionally anyway...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[simoan]

‎
It sounds like this particular incident is going to be a driver for long-term improvements into the VAR process -

From this weekend, PGMOL confirmed VARs will confirm the outcome of any decisions with their assistant VARs before notifying the on-field officials to prevent a repeat mistake.

PGMOL, which said it is committed to introducing a new VAR communication protocol as part of a review, believes the move will enhance the clarity of communication between the referee and VAR team in relation to decisions.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67027909

I think Pochettino sums the issue up nicely in the above article, and seems to align with my feelings expressed in my opening post on this thread -

Chelsea manager Mauricio Pochettino said he "trusts in the car but it is the driver that is the problem" amid the ongoing debate around the use of video assistant referee technology.

The real shame is that PGMOL couldn't foresee the need for much stricter communication protocols before this particular incident happened, but if it's a catalyst for long-term improvements then some good will have come out of it, at least.

I still think the biggest improvement would be to allow the crowd and live TV audience to hear the VAR communication channels whilst the decisions are being made, which, one would hope, would instantly put pressure on those involved in the VAR process to act more professionally anyway...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

You missed the most important part of what Poch said i.e. VAR should only be used for offsides, nothing else.

The biggest problem for me has always been that VAR was meant to be used for CLEAR AND OBVIOUS refereeing errors only. The only thing that’s clear and obvious is that it has constantly been used when it shouldn’t be. If it takes VAR several replays, drawing lots of lines, and more than 30 seconds to make a decision, then by definition it’s not a clear and obvious error and the original on-field decision should stand.

Some of the decisions I’ve seen are totally ridiculous where the engineer in me can see that the distance involved is so small it must be within the error margin of the VAR system. The whole thing just needs binning if it isn’t going to be used for offside only where there is a clear and obvious referee error IMO.