6 Nations 2024

[terminal7]

Last night BBC showed live the final week of all three U20s. Because of the overlapping times, I saw nothing of an Irish comprehensive whitewash of the Scots. I did see the last 20 mins of France v England plus snatches and at HT England were trailing by 21-12. The English were resurgent in the second half and won 45-31. This was helped by the French losing one of their key players I think at HT and followed by a yellow against the French soon into the second half. Also I saw one of those incidents that slightly perplex me. The ref awarded a penalty try around 70m after French forward deliberately collapsed the English drive 5m out. The ref also yellow cards the offender - which always strikes me a doubling the impact of the infringement - that I feel is disproportionate to the 'crime'.

Finally Wales at home to Italy. The Welsh were abysmal in the first half and were losing 15-0 at HT - incidentally another PT with yellow card. What was said to the Welsh players by Rob Howley at HT I have no idea, but they built up an unstoppable momentum and put 27 unanswered points past the Italians. The Welsh scrum half Wilde is a brilliant kicker of the ball.

Hopefully today will live up to the U20s matches.

T7

[BigB]

Dare we wish for a 2nd div with the Rugby Europe championship nations - Bel/Ger/Por/Ned/Geor/Spa?

It already exists

https://www.rugbyeurope.eu/competitions ... mpionship/

and matches are often live on their youtube channel

https://www.youtube.com/@RugbyEuropeOfficial/streams

Yes I know it exists; I'm wondering if at some stage there will be an appetite to integrate the 2 and introduce promotion/relegation.

[BigB]

"incidentally another PT with yellow card."

I think this is currently the guidance for the officials and they don't have the discretion to not do it.

[Hallucigenia]

Yes I know it exists; I'm wondering if at some stage there will be an appetite to integrate the 2 and introduce promotion/relegation.

That comes down to - would there be an appetite from the TV companies to risk losing Wales (and within the last decade, Scotland) from the TV schedules?

There's also the practical matter of stadium availability, although I guess you could have a system of "by election" like used to happen at the bottom of the Football League.

[didds]

Yes I know it exists; I'm wondering if at some stage there will be an appetite to integrate the 2 and introduce promotion/relegation.

All the time Italy were P5 L5 this call was rampant.

I'll wager that call won't be so loud now and certainly not from denizens of one particular nation.

Its a lovely idea. The reality is that- for the forseeable future anyway - all it would create is a yo yo in reality. Or at least until the gap between the top tier 2 teams and the tier 1 teams closes significantly.

At the RWC Georgia got
thumped by Australia (ranked below Italy now)
drew with portugal (closest rivals at tier2 europe)
lost to fiji (ranked below australia - see above)
got hammered by wales (who have just P5L5 and are bopttom of the 6N)

At the RWC Portugal got
smashed by Wales (6N wooden spoonists )
drew with portugal (see above)
mullered by Australia (ranked below italy)
beat Fiji (in a result that made no difference to Fiji's progression).

Portugal also very recently got buried by an England B team (though being fairt it wasnt a full strength Portuguese side)

I dont disagree that tier2 needs better support to develop - but playing tier 1 nations with the current gap is not a way to acheive it.

[BigB]

Yes I know it exists; I'm wondering if at some stage there will be an appetite to integrate the 2 and introduce promotion/relegation.

All the time Italy were P5 L5 this call was rampant.

I'll wager that call won't be so loud now and certainly not from denizens of one particular nation.

Its a lovely idea. The reality is that- for the forseeable future anyway - all it would create is a yo yo in reality. Or at least until the gap between the top tier 2 teams and the tier 1 teams closes significantly.

At the RWC Georgia got
thumped by Australia (ranked below Italy now)
drew with portugal (closest rivals at tier2 europe)
lost to fiji (ranked below australia - see above)
got hammered by wales (who have just P5L5 and are bopttom of the 6N)

At the RWC Portugal got
smashed by Wales (6N wooden spoonists )
drew with portugal (see above)
mullered by Australia (ranked below italy)
beat Fiji (in a result that made no difference to Fiji's progression).

Portugal also very recently got buried by an England B team (though being fairt it wasnt a full strength Portuguese side)

I dont disagree that tier2 needs better support to develop - but playing tier 1 nations with the current gap is not a way to acheive it.

I think if you introduced a playoff between last in the 6N and winners of the "Georgia" cup, you'd occasionally get a promotion, to start with. And so what if it's a yo-yo situation. And though we may call them all Tier1, in any given year I'd suggest the quality gap between the top and bottom of 6N is not necessarily narrower than the gap between bottom of 6N and top of Rugby Europe.

I understand it would be uncomfortable for some - currently Wales, but only 10-15 years ago Wales were riding high like Ireland now, had won a couple of slams and effectively provided most of the 2013 Lions team for the final test to beat Aus - remember the hoo-ha when Gats dropped BOD, but they won anyway.

With the precarious nature of finances in rugby, exacerbated post Covid, and the mis-management that appears to have happened with WRU and to a lesser extent RFU/EPR, I get puzzled when I hear all the "grow the game" type stuff you hear at the RWC and around the EPR/Welsh club struggles - rugby types still thinking they can model themselves on the soccer EPL and just print money for "growth".

In most countries, rugby is a niche sport -the numbers of participants and paying fans for anything other than big internationals is not there. I believe there is more realistic opportunity to grow the game across countries rather than in-country. Extended/linked nations tournaments in EMEA, APAC, and Americas could be a part of that. Making places available to club teams from each nation in the EPCR Challenge Cup could also.

If there's really no appetite to do it, that's fair enough - it's perfectly legit to say you're going to ringfence what you have and continue it as it is, but then then you have to be more honest/pragmatic about your grow the game ambitions. Pressure on the 6-8 big stadium international paydays each year will remain, but so will the lack of a wider viewing audience, and with it the big tv deals.

[didds]

With the precarious nature of finances in rugby, exacerbated post Covid, and the mis-management that appears to have happened with WRU and to a lesser extent RFU/EPR, I get puzzled when I hear all the "grow the game" type stuff you hear at the RWC and around the EPR/Welsh club struggles - rugby types still thinking they can model themselves on the soccer EPL and just print money for "growth".

Totally agree. The pro rugby business model - at least in the UK - just isn't sustainable as we saw last season with wasps, worcester and London Irish, let alone the Welsh franchises.

In most countries, rugby is a niche sport -the numbers of participants and paying fans for anything other than big internationals is not there.

Again, i totally agree. there seems to be an ostrich head in the sand approach to all of this at the highest levels as you identify, that it has to be the equivalent of football globally. It just isn't going to happen.

If there's really no appetite to do it, that's fair enough - it's perfectly legit to say you're going to ringfence what you have and continue it as it is, but then then you have to be more honest/pragmatic about your grow the game ambitions.

Again, totally agree. What is SAID by the upper table bigwigs isnt matched by what they actually then do. I'm not personally convinced expanding the current international windows is ever likely to happen - if only because eventually the clubs will baulk at losing their players for even longer - so the concept of expanding the 6N to eg 10N and thus adding another 4 weekends - which is then spread over 6 weekends, ie a month a half 0- can ever fly ... at least not without destroying the round robin historical competition.

Id suggest as a staring point running a top of tier 2 versus tier 1 B-squads comp, maybe in the autumn slot (cant be done in spring as that is when the major tier 2 comp is held of course).

eg portugal, Georgia, Spain, Romania, England B, Scotland B, Wales B, France B, Italy B (or subset or whatever). Tho I confess I dont know what those tier2 nations commitments are in the autumn.

That at least would hopefully provide
* a higher level of exposure for tier 2
* reduced potential cricket score scenarios
* tier 1 development squad games

thats a very loose suggestion with little thought/development behind it I confess

[terminal7]

Didds - The idea of Wales, Scotland and Italy fielding B teams would these days undermine the current 6N under 20s tournament. There is very little strength in depth - as we already seen particularly with Wales currently. In fact Wales did have an A team (second to the National team) last century that played against touring international sides but this was abandoned due to lack of finance. Maybe this was abandoned when the tours involved extensive tours of the UK including matches against clubs. Some of the greatest matches from my youth were Cardiff or Newport playing the ABs or the Boks.

T7

[didds]

Didds - The idea of Wales, Scotland and Italy fielding B teams would these days undermine the current 6N under 20s tournament.

T7

Well I had suggested this potential competition was in the autumn so that wouldn't interfere with the existing 6N/Rugby Europe (RE) competitions in the spring. The U20 world cup is usually IIRC held in June/July so autumn wouldn't clash with that either. Though I appreciate your point about squad/player depths etc.

The "theory" was some sort of stepping stone for RE teams at the moment rather than just throwing them up against full Tier 1 nations - I'm not personally convinced that latter scenario offers much development at all until the "gap" narrows considerably (otherwise we'd all be playing our U14 club sides against the colts sides all the time...). There may be other opportunities of course.

Part of the issue also of course is the international windows agreed with the clubs, and player burnout, and finances. Its just not as simple as throwing another four teams into a 10N competition (for example) and everyone just getting on with it.

[terminal7]

A quick wrap-up of the last weekend and the tournie overall.

Wales v Italy : Italy continued their resurgence whilst Wales continued their decline - I am still not sure about the ability of many of the Welsh players ever to reach top international standards - many were dire in this match - Italy I suspect have reached their summit - hpw much further they can go based on the concentration of Benetton players I find debatable.

France v England : draw would have been the fair result - I find France fragile - excellence dotted amongst average - liable to crumble under real pressure - dependent currently on the 6-2 bench - England on the other hand appear to have suddenly turned a corner - bunch of young highly promising players

Ireland - Scotland : Scotland did fight so hard to the end but ultimately were outclassed by a team that tailed off in this tournie - Ireland should have put them away but failed to do so.

Overall: Ireland were magnificent to win back to back tournies but peaked after 3 matches. France were chameleon like and lacked consistency. Wales were terrible with one exception and show no signs of having the basis for a successful team. Italy - I suppose the 'stars' of the tournie - one ball unbalanced away from 3 wins. Scotland - ultimately poor - self congratulatory team with let Finn sort it bias. England - all credit for the resurgence - let's see whether it will stick

I thought that the tournie was really exciting with maybe 7/8 games real humdingers but the quality of play overall was below average. Maybe a little RWC hangover?

T7