Rail journey with a stop-off en route, ticketing?

[DiamondEcho]

I'm shortly going to travelling from:
1 - Heathrow T2 > central/west London [near Kensington High Street] - 2 nights there
2 - London > Cambridge - 2 nights there
3 - Cambridge > Norwich - a few nights there.

I only visit the UK every few years and the possibilities transport-wise seem to evolve each time. I'm currently thinking:
1 - Heathrow Express to Paddington and tube to Ken High St
Reasoning: Though that train is very expensive, it'll have been a long journey and this seems to be the simplest way, given a taxi would be $$$$. I don't think Cross-rail is up and running yet to be an alternative. There's something called Heathrow Connect, DAK if that might be an alternative?

2 - Tube to Liverpool Street or King's Cross and then train? There used to be various great bus services from west London to Oxford like the Oxford Tube, but is there anything of that kind from west London to Cambridge?

3 - Not a route I know well at all, and I'm only aware of the train connection.

2+3 - is there a UK train ticket type that would allow London>Cambridge [2 night stop-off] > Norwich? Or do I have to book individual journeys?

Any advice, tips, useful websites to check would be very welcome, thx!

[Alaric]

There's something called Heathrow Connect

Heathrow Connect follows exactly the same route as Heathrow Express, but stops at all the local stations. It's much cheaper, but also much slower. There's also the Picadilly Line, also calling at all stations. That goes to South Kensington, you would change there or at the previous station, Earls Court, for the one stop to High Street Kensington.

To plan journeys and see potential fares, use www.nationalrail.co.uk . In principle there are tickets which allow break of journey, but I suspect that London to Norwich via Cambridge may not be a valid route on one ticket. The quickest trains to Cambridge are from Kings Cross nowadays.

The real experts on tickets would be found at www.railforums.co.uk.

Nearly all tickets can be booked in advance and sent by post or collected from ticket machines at stations. Confusingly there is a ticket type labelled "Advance", which will restrict you to one and only one a train at a specified time.

[forrado]

I tend to favour the Piccadilly Line route from Heathrow T2 – change at Earl’s Court (onto the District Line) or the next stop of South Kensington (onto the Circle Line) both will get you to Kensington High Street one stop on.

2+3 - is there a UK train ticket type that would allow London>Cambridge [2 night stop-off] > Norwich? Or do I have to book individual journeys?

Rather that the train, have you thought about doing London - to - Cambridge - to - Norwich by road. May not be quicker than the train but it will be cheaper. I'll lay out how you can do it using National Express from Victoria Coach Station which is not all that far from High Street Kensington.

From High Street Kensington Tube take the Circle Line to Victoria – it’s the third stop after South Kensington and Sloane Square. Find your way out of the station and left onto Buckingham Palace Road (A3214), cross over the road onto the opposite side to the rail station and follow the signs for Victoria Coach Station. It’s a 10-minute walk to the main coach station building on the corner of Buckingham Palace Road and Elizabeth Street.

To look up info about National Express routes, times and ticket prices go to …

http://www.nationalexpress.com/home.aspx

Type in … Travelling from? “London Victoria Coach Station” … Travelling to? “Cambridge (City Centre)” … make sure the “Single” journey box is ticked … select your date of travel and click “Find my journey” tab.

Once the page is open click on either “Show Earlier Coaches” or “Show Later Coaches” tabs to display earlier / later coach times. Also, click on the individual i for information logos shown under “Changes” column for coach numbers. The direct (no change) National Express coach from Victoria to Cambridge (City Centre) is the number SH010. All the others coaches go to Stansted Airport first where passengers have to change for a Cambridge bus. Travelling time can be anything 1hr:45ms to 2hrs:30ms depending on the time of day and traffic. Arrive in plenty of time and buy your ticket in the coach station at Victoria. Generally, it’s only advisable to book in advance when catching a Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted or Luton airport buses from Victoria.

From Cambridge to Norwich do the same exercise again, but this time … Traveling from? “Cambridge (City Centre)” … Traveling to? “Norwich Bus Station” ... and the date of travel. The direct (no change) JL727 is the only National Express coach linking Cambridge and Norwich. There appears to be a JL727 bus leaving Cambridge every 2 hours from 07:30 to 23:30 with a stated traveling time of 2hrs. On arrival at Cambridge (City Centre) bus station from Victoria you can if you want buy yourself a single ticket to Norwich at the National Express ticket agent office.

The only other thing to note about National Express is that the coach drivers don’t handle cash or cards. Tickets have to be purchased in advance either via the internet or via ticket office agents located at major arrival-departure points.

[YeeWo]

http://www.railrover.org/pages/anglia-plus.html

3 days-in-7 i.e. 3 days out for £37 seems decent to me.

[Alaric]

3 days-in-7 i.e. 3 days out for £37 seems decent to me.

It's not valid from and to London though.

[Satsuma]

A while ago I downloaded what has turned out to be quite the geekfest of maps, and it happens to be useful/relevant here

The UK Rail Map shows all train lines, stations and operators nationally: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/do ... apZoom.pdf

[DiamondEcho]

Thanks for that Sats, that does indeed look like a useful site!
From your link I found this, which seems to be a list of national and regional maps > http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_ ... /maps.aspx
From which you see one for all the over/underground lines across greater London http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/London_Rail_Tube0517.pdf
Another has connections from London out into the 'South-east' region > http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/London_South_East0517.pdf

...and many more.

[Satsuma]

Thanks for that Sats, that does indeed look like a useful site!

You're very welcome. I fear we have lost you for days now though...!

[ahenry]

To get from Heathrow to Kensington High Street, I would take the Piccadilly line. It stops a bit, but its direct, and you don't have to mess about with so many escalators. You can pay with a contactless credit card which is a simple way to get the cheapest price. Uber will be cheaper than a taxi, but you need to get to their pickup stops https://www.uber.com/en-GB/airports/lhr/

The quickest trains from London to Cambridge are from Kings Cross (in ~ 45 minutes). The ones from Liverpool Street take a bit longer, but are cheaper, and also have some advance tickets, can be much cheaper, but only for a specific train.

The trains between Kings Cross and Cambridge have recently been replaced. The new (class 387) ones have air conditioning and power sockets at each seat. Some people grumble about the seats, which are not as comfortable as on the older class 365. There are also not as many of them. The First class sections are poorly labelled, and have the same seats.

Return tickets are much cheaper if you can avoid the peak morning hours for the outgoing journey. From Cambridge to Kings Cross, you can use any train for the return part of on an off peak ticket. There are various discount cards that can save 1/3rd of the ticket price, but you need to pay for the card in the first place, and you might make up that saving in a single trip. There is a Group Save discount ticket if you have 4 people traveling together.

How are you going to get back from Norwich? Unless you buy an "Advance" single ticket, then a return costs very little more than the single ticket, but you need to make sure that its valid on the route you want to use.

You can get a London-Cambridge-Norwich ticket, but I don't think its much cheaper than buying the individual London-Cambridge and Cambridge-Norwich tickets.

For route planning and live time tables, I like http://www.traintimes.org.uk

The forums at http://www.railforums.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=105 are a good source of information for advice on this sort of thing.
If you need the ALL the detail on the terms and conditions for a UK train ticket http://www.brfares.com is the best place.

http://raildar.co.uk/radar.html has a Google Maps view with the live location of trains. http://raildar.co.uk/map/KGX has a schematic view of the trains at Kings Cross

[Alaric]

You can get a London-Cambridge-Norwich ticket, but I don't think its much cheaper than buying the individual London-Cambridge and Cambridge-Norwich tickets.

You can buy a London to Norwich return and travel London-Cambridge-Norwich on the same day in one direction and Norwich-London as the return at a later date. What I don't think can be done on one London-Norwich ticket is to travel London-Cambridge, stay in Cambridge several days and then Cambridge to Norwich. I think that was what the OP was asking about.

[ahenry]

You can get a London-Cambridge-Norwich ticket, but I don't think its much cheaper than buying the individual London-Cambridge and Cambridge-Norwich tickets.

You can buy a London to Norwich return and travel London-Cambridge-Norwich on the same day in one direction and Norwich-London as the return at a later date. What I don't think can be done on one London-Norwich ticket is to travel London-Cambridge, stay in Cambridge several days and then Cambridge to Norwich. I think that was what the OP was asking about.

You can with an Anytime Return, not with an Off Peak Return.

With a £53.10 Off Peak Return, you can break your outward journey, but you need to travel out on one day (before 4.29am the next day) and there are restrictions on the trains that you can use in the morning and the evening.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_far ... 46590.aspx
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig ... 72&tkt=SVR

With an Anytime Return from London to Norwich, outward journey must be made within 5 days and up until 04:29 after the last day of validity; the return portion must be used within one calendar month and up until 04:29 after the last day of validity. You can then return any time within a month. You can break your journey at any time on these.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_far ... 46544.aspx
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig ... 72&tkt=SOR

However, the Anytime Return is £105.70, and unless you need to travel at peak hours for all the bits of your journey, you can probably travel for less with a mixture of cheaper tickets.

[DiamondEcho]

To get from Heathrow to Kensington High Street, I would take the Piccadilly line. It stops a bit, but its direct, and you don't have to mess about with so many escalators. You can pay with a contactless credit card which is a simple way to get the cheapest price.

Thanks for such a comprehensive reply!
I’d been looking at the Heathrow Connect via Paddington, rather than the HRW Expre$$. But it seems the tube is simpler [one change at Earl’s Court, and since I used to live there I know the station well!] and only takes c10m longer. Cheaper too of course.
I’ve been hunting for my Oyster card this morning, so far with no luck, so I was struck by your mentioning using a contactless credit card; I didn’t know you could use a bank card! Looking at the TFL website it seems to suggest it’s not just for credit cards, but debit cards too, as long as they have the ‘contactless symbol’ on them. My cards are UK cards, and do, so it seems that’s all I need... ie no need to find or replace my Oyster card.

The quickest trains from London to Cambridge are from Kings Cross (in ~ 45 minutes)...

That’s what we’ve decided on, and we’ve prebooked the tickets via redspottedhankie.com which was straight-forward enough.
What I ended up doing, it avoided me navigating reams of booking T+Cs and I didn’t notice it was noticeably more expensive, was book Kings X> Cambridge, and Cambridge > Norwich as single tickets.
After I booked them our host near Norwich asked if we could get off at a station near just before Norwich for them to collect us. The train is scheduled to stop there, so hopefully that’s ok? Just I have an old lingering doubt that some train tickets are for precisely the ticketed journey, and ANY changes, even truncating the journey slightly, are a problem.

How are you going to get back from Norwich?

Norwich> HRW is via taxi. It is a local retiree our hosts recommended to us. It isn’t cheap at c£140 for the car, but there’ll be two of us and will be door-to-door to our hotel at HRW for the final night before flying the next morning. The alt spectre of travelling from a Norfolk village > HRW hotel via public transport was something I was willing to pay to avoid.
Thanks also for the useful links!

[Alaric]

Just I have an old lingering doubt that some train tickets are for precisely the ticketed journey, and ANY changes, even truncating the journey slightly, are a problem.

If the ticket is labelled "Advance", then there's the problem that truncating the journey is against the T&Cs of the ticket. There's also a potential problem if the Cambridge to Norwich ticket is labelled as not allowing a break of journey. That said, the railway operators appear to have agreed not to enforce petty restrictions, where there's no financial advantage to do so at least.

[DiamondEcho]

If the ticket is labelled "Advance", then there's the problem that truncating the journey is against the T&Cs of the ticket. There's also a potential problem if the Cambridge to Norwich ticket is labelled as not allowing a break of journey. That said, the railway operators appear to have agreed not to enforce petty restrictions, where there's no financial advantage to do so at least.

Thanks! I don't see 'Advance' anywhere on the confirms from RedSpottedHankie.
The Lon>Cambridge booking is shown as 'Any time Day Single Valid on all services by the route and Train Operator shown', and 'Route: Travel is allowed via any permitted route'.
The Cambridge>Norwich one is marked 'Off-peak Day Single Valid on off-peak services by the route and operator shown', and ditto above 'Route: Travel is allowed via any permitted route'.

[ahenry]

I’ve been hunting for my Oyster card this morning, so far with no luck, so I was struck by your mentioning using a contactless credit card; I didn’t know you could use a bank card! Looking at the TFL website it seems to suggest it’s not just for credit cards, but debit cards too, as long as they have the ‘contactless symbol’ on them. My cards are UK cards, and do, so it seems that’s all I need... ie no need to find or replace my Oyster card.

You still need to remember to check in and check out. That is easy in the busy stations with barriers, but you need to remember at quiet stations.

If you can find the Oyster card then you could get a refund for the outstanding balance and the card deposit.

After I booked them our host near Norwich asked if we could get off at a station near just before Norwich for them to collect us. The train is scheduled to stop there, so hopefully that’s ok? Just I have an old lingering doubt that some train tickets are for precisely the ticketed journey, and ANY changes, even truncating the journey slightly, are a problem.

That will be fine.

[Lootman]

There's something called Heathrow Connect

Heathrow Connect follows exactly the same route as Heathrow Express, but stops at all the local stations. It's much cheaper, but also much slower.

It stops 5 times, from memory, and takes 27 minutes rather than 15. I'm not sure that an extra 12 minutes is "much slower" but I suppose it depends how much of a rush you are in. It's worse for T5 as you then have to change at T3.

It's about ten quid one way, so a little less than half the Heathrow Express.

[Satsuma]

I was struck by your mentioning using a contactless credit card; I didn’t know you could use a bank card! Looking at the TFL website it seems to suggest it’s not just for credit cards, but debit cards too, as long as they have the ‘contactless symbol’ on them. My cards are UK cards, and do, so it seems that’s all I need... ie no need to find or replace my Oyster card.

That is correct (I use a contactless Mastercard, OH has both an Oyster and a contactless Debit card.
Much easier than having a separate Oyster card hanging round if you are in infrequent user of the London travel system.

[Watis]

Just I have an old lingering doubt that some train tickets are for precisely the ticketed journey, and ANY changes, even truncating the journey slightly, are a problem.

If the ticket is labelled "Advance", then there's the problem that truncating the journey is against the T&Cs of the ticket. There's also a potential problem if the Cambridge to Norwich ticket is labelled as not allowing a break of journey. That said, the railway operators appear to have agreed not to enforce petty restrictions, where there's no financial advantage to do so at least.

This is correct; the terms and conditions here: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/do ... /NRCOC.pdf
make it clear that there are tickets where it is against these terms and conditions to finish your journey at an earlier station. See Section C on page 11.

As it's there in black and white, and there's a financial advantage to the rail company to levy the penalty specified in the document, why would they not enforce this restriction?

Watis

[tjh290633]

To get from Heathrow to Kensington High Street, I would take the Piccadilly line. It stops a bit, but its direct, and you don't have to mess about with so many escalators. You can pay with a contactless credit card which is a simple way to get the cheapest price.

Thanks for such a comprehensive reply!
I’d been looking at the Heathrow Connect via Paddington, rather than the HRW Expre$$. But it seems the tube is simpler [one change at Earl’s Court, and since I used to live there I know the station well!] and only takes c10m longer. Cheaper too of course.

You may know the area well, but it is better to change before Earls Court, as you can make a cross platform change onto the District at Hammersmith or Barons Court, before the Piccadilly goes underground. If you have luggage it's a lot easier.

TJH

[DiamondEcho]

This is correct; the terms and conditions here: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/do ... /NRCOC.pdf
make it clear that there are tickets where it is against these terms and conditions to finish your journey at an earlier station. See Section C on page 11.
As it's there in black and white, and there's a financial advantage to the rail company to levy the penalty specified in the document, why would they not enforce this restriction? Watis

Thank you for that. The section you refer to reads, with my highlight in blue, as follows:
--------------------------
'C. USE OF TICKETS
16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the Ticket Seller must make this clear when you buy your ticket.
If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station when you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available at a ticket office for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s) you have used.
---------------------------

For the time being at least my position is that I've bought the tickets and the Ticket Seller did not make it clear when I bought them, that I cannot get off one stop early without penalties. Well, if it comes to it that'll be my proposed opener versus any shirty ticket inspectors