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KLM - Dispute with them.

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redsturgeon
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Re: KLM - Dispute with them.

#112681

Postby redsturgeon » January 23rd, 2018, 7:01 am

You say you are not interested in compensation, what is it that you want from KLM then?

Have you told them what you want?

John

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Re: KLM - Dispute with them.

#112697

Postby redsturgeon » January 23rd, 2018, 7:46 am

FredBloggs wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:You say you are not interested in compensation, what is it that you want from KLM then?

Have you told them what you want?

John

Indeed. I want them to refine their systems. It works for recognising and re-booking a passenger on a delayed flight. But it doesn't work when KLM decide to simply apply the ban hammer for non boarding a delayed flight with a viable connection. This is a problem with their system that half work. A tweak of their databases could easily discriminate those who can and those who cannot board. Unfortunately, there is no mechanism other than a complaint to get KLM to listen. And so far, they still are not listening.


Aha...you should tell them you are from McKinseys or BCG and send them a bill for half a million quid then they might take your advice.

John

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Re: KLM - Dispute with them.

#112711

Postby JamesMuenchen » January 23rd, 2018, 8:54 am

Hi Fred

FredBloggs wrote:I have made it very clear from the outset, that I am not in anyway complaining about the weather. I am complaining about KLM's unreasonable (in my view) action in denying me boarding when I had a confirmed connection and thus I missed a valid connecting flight.I eventually arrived at my destination about 22 hours late the following day. The ADR has now declared a deadlock situation and the case has been referred to the aviation ombudsman for resolution. I am not interested in compensation, if I get any I'll likely donate it to charity so that someone benefits from the bad experience.Do the fools here think I am being unreasonable? Or is KLM being unreasonable?

Well, it's not clear what you want from them if you are not interested in compo.

Under the rules it seems you have a good case for compensation.

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/passenger-rights/air/index_en.htm
If you have presented yourself on time for the check-in with a valid flight reservation and travel documentation and you're denied boarding due to overbooking or for operational reasons, and you don't voluntarily give up your seat, you are entitled to:
◾ compensation
◾the right to choose between reimbursement, re-routing or rebooking at a later stage and
◾ assistance


FredBloggs wrote:So, to cut a long story short, I filed a complaint against KLM with their "Alternative Dispute Resolution" (ADR) service provider. After about six ping pong message matches via the ADR, KLM were still denying I had a complaint. Their position is to say there was a weather problem and I am not due any compensation from my delay.

A Long Story is simply standard procedure for the airlines, they hope you will get frustrated and go away.

A couple of times I have followed the guidance on the Europa site to refer cases to the relevant national bodies and been successful.

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Re: KLM - Dispute with them.

#112727

Postby vrdiver » January 23rd, 2018, 9:50 am

A few years ago I had to attend a meeting that meant a flight with Air France to Nice. After the meeting, I chatted with my hosts before remembering that I hadn't bothered to reset my watch, and that I now had 40 minutes to make the 1 hour to drive back to the airport before my flight departed (yes, departed...)

Needless to say, I missed my flight. The staff at the desk were very helpful and put me on the next connecting flight to Paris, which I ran to the gate to catch. Once in Paris, I, of course, missed my onward flight. Again, the AF desk was very helpful, arranging a complimentary hotel and taxi there and back for the re-scheduled flight the next morning.

Perhaps it helped that I was waving a Platinum Frequent Flyer card at the time? :lol:

I always liked flying KLM: the staff were somewhat forthright, as is the Dutch wont. Before crossing them off your list of carriers, just be sure you are happy with the alternatives!

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Re: KLM - Dispute with them.

#112731

Postby JamesMuenchen » January 23rd, 2018, 9:56 am

Well, my guess is that due to the disruption they had to choose between giving seats to
    [a]passengers with onward connections and a high likelihood of further delays and compo liability
    [b]passengers without onward connections and no likelihood of further delays and compo liability

Economically, choosing Group [b] makes sense.

Group [a] is more likely to be entitled to compo in any case, and there is a reasonable excuse to flannel them with that will make many of them accept the decision and not claim their rights. Secondly, if they do fly and get stuck in the connecting airport then the airline might have to put them up overnight, rather than just send them home.

So KLM's system probably works fine from their perspective.

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Re: KLM - Dispute with them.

#112738

Postby redsturgeon » January 23rd, 2018, 10:25 am

FredBloggs wrote:
Unfortunately, when I got the front of the queue to board, the rather flustered gate supervisor asked me if I had an onward connection from AMS. Naturally, I said yes I had, and showed her the recent confirmation from KLM of my connecting flight (due to depart about four hours time). This very flustered lady quite rudely told me I could not board under any circumstances.



You'll know what to say next time. ;)

John

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Re: KLM - Dispute with them.

#112744

Postby dspp » January 23rd, 2018, 10:30 am

vrdiver wrote:I always liked flying KLM: the staff were somewhat forthright, as is the Dutch wont.


My ex, a Dutch lady, used to refer to KLM staff as "air-b^&*(". So even Dutch ladies can find KLM's attitude disappointing.

@FB: You'll need to pursue it for compensation to make a difference, and then ideally do some promotion regarding donating the compo to a charity. Try to pick a Dutch charity and maximise the embarassment by inviting KLM/AF to match it. That's the only sort of pressure they respond to.

regards, dspp

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Re: KLM - Dispute with them.

#113496

Postby stockton » January 26th, 2018, 3:14 pm

I cannot see any ground for complaint here.

The computer system can record that a flight is scheduled, but it cannot record that a flight (or will not) will be cancelled in two hours time.

Someone appears to have taken the apparently sensible decision that there there was an excessive risk of further cancellations and that they did not wish to bring more passengers to an airport that was probably already having difficulty coping.

Given that the refusal to board was weather related and what KLM did was rational, why would one expect compensation ?

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Re: KLM - Dispute with them.

#113500

Postby didds » January 26th, 2018, 3:22 pm

stockton wrote:Given that the refusal to board was weather related and what KLM did was rational, why would one expect compensation ?


He isn't.

didds

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Re: KLM - Dispute with them.

#113632

Postby vrdiver » January 27th, 2018, 10:31 am

stockton wrote:I cannot see any ground for complaint here.

The computer system can record that a flight is scheduled, but it cannot record that a flight (or will not) will be cancelled in two hours time.

Someone appears to have taken the apparently sensible decision that there there was an excessive risk of further cancellations and that they did not wish to bring more passengers to an airport that was probably already having difficulty coping.

Given that the refusal to board was weather related and what KLM did was rational, why would one expect compensation ?


Fred has said he doesn't want the compensation, it's just that the compensation route is the only apparent means of getting KLM to take notice.

His issue, if I may paraphrase, is KLM's lack of joined-up-processes:
#1 He was issued a revised onward ticket, giving him the expectation that the connecting flight was feasible.
#2 The ground staff were told to deny boarding to passengers with onward flights, implying the connecting flight was not feasible.

Both #1 and #2 were issued by KLM, but contradict each other and cause unnecessary confusion and stress when combined. Fred wants KLM to address this.

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Re: KLM - Dispute with them.

#113657

Postby JamesMuenchen » January 27th, 2018, 12:54 pm

FredBloggs wrote: I will never know, but I'd be extremely interested to find out what Emirates, Singapore Airlines and other major, modern carriers would have done at Dubai and Changi airports in similar circumstances.


They pretty much all share the same systems ... Amadeus, Sabre, etc provide their IT.

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Re: KLM - Dispute with them.

#115021

Postby stockton » February 1st, 2018, 6:28 pm

vrdiver wrote:His issue, if I may paraphrase, is KLM's lack of joined-up-processes:
#1 He was issued a revised onward ticket, giving him the expectation that the connecting flight was feasible.
#2 The ground staff were told to deny boarding to passengers with onward flights, implying the connecting flight was not feasible.

Both #1 and #2 were issued by KLM, but contradict each other and cause unnecessary confusion and stress when combined. Fred wants KLM to address this.


You appear to be assuming that the decision to reduce the passenger load out of Amsterdam was taken long before both events #1 and #2.

This assumption is probably incorrect in that as soon as the airline thinks that a flight may be cancelled, the first thing they are likely to do is close bookings on that flight. The fact that the OP was given a reservation on his second flight seems to indicate that they had not then concluded (incorrectly as it happened) that the outgoing flight might be cancelled.

Given the delays in putting any particular decision into action it seems to me that the OP was simply the victim of unfortunate timing, possibly because it is far quicker to transmit a 5 word message “Do not board connecting passengers”, than put a bunch of details through the computer system.

As to persuading an airline to improve its computer system, airlines generally seem to allow obvious flaws in their systems to persist for years on end.


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