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Option to install BT fibre?

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Newroad
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Option to install BT fibre?

#475672

Postby Newroad » January 24th, 2022, 9:19 am

Hi All.

Currently, we have BT Infinity, which is fibre to the junction box then copper to our BT Master Socket (as I understand it). We've replaced the BT router with a better ASUS model (IMO) but we still have the BT Infinity modem which was and remains a separate device.

With two adults working from home, two teenage children and a number of PC's and TV's, we don't really have any issues (one of the reasons for this, IMO, is that we don't rely on Wifi for anything important - the network's backbone is almost all ethernet or Powerline (ethernet over power). The one place we rely on Wifi is where I've sited a 5GHz wifi adapter (which plugs into a switch connected directly to the router by ethernet) immediately adjacent to the 65" TV which works perfectly.

We now have fibre to BT Master Socket available for install, which I understand is being marketed as BT Halo. As you can see from the above, near term, no performance issue to solve (but in the future, it might be useful). However, what I'm concerned about is potential disruption at point of install, e.g. likely downtime and whethe all the work is external, i.e. up to and including the Master Socket, or whether internal work is required as well and whether kit needs to be replaced? Finally, just wondering how this works with the plan for new IP phones etc?

For the avoidance of doubt, I haven't placed the order yet.

Regards, Newroad

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Re: Option to install BT fibre?

#475714

Postby Hallucigenia » January 24th, 2022, 12:07 pm

In the absence of direct experience (which I don't have), I'd assume it's broadly similar to any other master socket replacement, except there may be a bit more external disruption as they need to get a new cable from the street cabinet to your house, so it will depend on how your current cable gets to the house.

But I'd imagine that in terms of time without internet you're probably looking at a few hours for them to replace the master socket and then switch you over at the exchange end.

Shouldn't make any difference downstream, other than it looks like they try to lock you in to using their Smart Hubs, I'm not sure how hard that lock is.

Shouldn't make any difference wrt VoIP phones.

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Re: Option to install BT fibre?

#475724

Postby Infrasonic » January 24th, 2022, 12:26 pm

Check which modem/router model you'll get with your BT FTTP install and do a features search on it.

Some BT smart hubs don't do bridged (modem only) mode natively - although there are potential workarounds/hacks on the BT forums if you want to carry on using your own Asus router and current networking topology as is.

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Re: Option to install BT fibre?

#475731

Postby AF62 » January 24th, 2022, 12:55 pm

FTTP (Fibre to the Premises) isn’t Halo as Halo is also used as a product for FTTC (Fibre to the Cabinet), so make sure what you are being offered.

Halo is BT’s ‘premium’ fibre product that comes with some additional support, their Whole Home WiFi disks supplied with the rental, and a mobile router in case the fibre network is down.

BT’s FTTP product comes with an option of three speeds, Full Fibre 100, 500, or 900 with increasing prices as you go up the scale.

However there isn’t an awful lot of difference between the lowest FTTP offering which gives an average of 150 down and 30 up, with their FTTC Fibre 2 offering where I get 80 down and 20 up.

So if you don’t have any issues with broadband speeds now with FTTC then what is the higher priced FTTP going to add?

Having FTTP will also make no difference to WiFi speeds if you are not saturating the broadband connection now. WiFi speeds tend to be determined by the WiFi hardware and having a good WiFi connection all over your house, which isn’t altered simply by having FTTP (unless you go with their Halo product with the Whole Home WiFi disks).

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Re: Option to install BT fibre?

#475734

Postby ReformedCharacter » January 24th, 2022, 12:59 pm

Newroad wrote:Hi All.

Currently, we have BT Infinity, which is fibre to the junction box then copper to our BT Master Socket (as I understand it). We've replaced the BT router with a better ASUS model (IMO) but we still have the BT Infinity modem which was and remains a separate device.

With two adults working from home, two teenage children and a number of PC's and TV's, we don't really have any issues (one of the reasons for this, IMO, is that we don't rely on Wifi for anything important - the network's backbone is almost all ethernet or Powerline (ethernet over power). The one place we rely on Wifi is where I've sited a 5GHz wifi adapter (which plugs into a switch connected directly to the router by ethernet) immediately adjacent to the 65" TV which works perfectly.

We now have fibre to BT Master Socket available for install, which I understand is being marketed as BT Halo. As you can see from the above, near term, no performance issue to solve (but in the future, it might be useful). However, what I'm concerned about is potential disruption at point of install, e.g. likely downtime and whethe all the work is external, i.e. up to and including the Master Socket, or whether internal work is required as well and whether kit needs to be replaced? Finally, just wondering how this works with the plan for new IP phones etc?

For the avoidance of doubt, I haven't placed the order yet.

Regards, Newroad

Our FTTP arrives at the premises via phone poles in the same way as the phone line. On the top of the nearest pole is a fibre terminal from which a cable was run to our premises. The installer suggested a couple of ways to route the cable into the house and I chose the least obstrusive, a catenary wire to the side of the house just below roof level. The cable runs down the side of the wall where it terminates in a plastic box c. 200 x 150 x 20mm. A cable then runs into the house via the front door frame and then terminates at a similarly sized box which provides an ethernet connection to the BT Home Hub. That unit is powered by another smaller unit which is supposed to provide battery backup in case of power failure. I practise it doesn't work as a backup because - as the installer mentioned - it isn't powerful enough :) This requires two power sockets, one for the HH and one for the power supply 'backup'. At the moment our copper line is still in place and still provides the landline.

It's worth mentioning that you need to be very clear with the installer exactly where you want the cables run. The bod that fitted ours first attached the catenary to the fascia board, which extends almost a foot from the side of the house, and then ran it down to almost ground level to join the external box. It was laughably appalling. But easier for him than drilling into the stone wall and running the catenary and cable down parallel to the wall. He did it properly after I made my feelings clear :) . The positioning of the hole for the run into the house through the door frame was quite needlessly poorly sited and untidy. I had the door and frame replaced recently and the installers deserved a medla for removing the old frame around it and fitting the new one around it without busting the fibre.

RC

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Re: Option to install BT fibre?

#475736

Postby mc2fool » January 24th, 2022, 1:00 pm

Newroad wrote:We now have fibre to BT Master Socket available for install, which I understand is being marketed as BT Halo.

"Halo" seems to be a service which doesn't necessarily come with "Full Fibre", which is what BT is calling FTTP. https://www.bt.com/exp/halo

in terms of disruption, I can't find anywhere where they say how much disruption there would normally be (probably 'cos there is no normal), but they do say:

"Openreach Survey: In some cases Openreach have to carry out a survey before they can connect a home to Full Fibre. To do this they may need access to your property. If they do we’ll contact you to arrange a suitable time. If additional work is required, this may take longer than the initial set-up time provided and there could be additional costs. Our team of specialists will contact you to confirm what additional work is needed and how long this will take, usually within four weeks from the date your order was placed. If you don’t want to proceed with your upgrade based on this, you will be able to cancel your order and no charges will be applied to your account. Not all lines in an ultrafast Fibre area can support this service, call today to see if you are eligible."

https://www.bt.com/broadband/full-fibre-learn (scroll to the bottom and under "Here’s the legal bit" click on "Full Fibre broadband")

BTW, it seems that FTTP does not replace the Master Socket but rather installs a totally new "optical network terminator" (ONT), and you can choose to either continue with voice over copper wire or get a VOIP service. https://community.bt.com/t5/BT-Fibre-broadband/FTTP-Broadband-Phone-socket/td-p/1870542

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Re: Option to install BT fibre?

#475740

Postby Newroad » January 24th, 2022, 1:13 pm

Thanks All.

For the responses to my enquiry.

Regards, Newroad

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Re: Option to install BT fibre?

#475756

Postby stewamax » January 24th, 2022, 2:04 pm

Worth remembering that it is OpenReach who install FTTP but it is 'retail' BT who want to sell you their wonderful broadband service over it. Given BT's prices, you may get a cheaper or better-supported contract elsewhere, e.g. Zen
Think also about how you want voice-services provided: if you currently use a landline for voice, you will need to switch to voice-over-IP; not exactly 'need' but you will be pushed to do so in the next year or two so you might as well do it now. The only downside is that 1471 calls may not be supported (caller ID always is).

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Re: Option to install BT fibre?

#475778

Postby MaraMan » January 24th, 2022, 3:22 pm

We did this change over a couple of months ago and downtime was a matter of minutes. It was all surprisingly well handled and efficient. The phone was slightly longer and we were not able to receive calls for 2 or 3 hours, although calling out was fine.

MM

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Re: Option to install BT fibre?

#475792

Postby scrumpyjack » January 24th, 2022, 4:30 pm

I endorse the suggestion of using Zen. Our FTTP had to come about 150 yds from the road by our back gate through trees on the existing telephone poles and that caused an installation delay for which they paid us £5 a day (3 weeks).

I can't see why there should be any down time because your old internet service over the phone line is not affected. A new FTTP cable is installed and a new junction box etc so there is no need to discontinue the old service until you want to.

I also went for Zen's 'digital voice' phone service. Far cheaper than the landline and they ported the number. £7 a month including a thousand minutes of calls incl to mobiles a month. The existing Dect base station plugged into the Zen router.

Zen's customer service is excellent.

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Re: Option to install BT fibre?

#475807

Postby Watis » January 24th, 2022, 5:15 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:I endorse the suggestion of using Zen. Our FTTP had to come about 150 yds from the road by our back gate through trees on the existing telephone poles and that caused an installation delay for which they paid us £5 a day (3 weeks).

I can't see why there should be any down time because your old internet service over the phone line is not affected. A new FTTP cable is installed and a new junction box etc so there is no need to discontinue the old service until you want to.

I also went for Zen's 'digital voice' phone service. Far cheaper than the landline and they ported the number. £7 a month including a thousand minutes of calls incl to mobiles a month. The existing Dect base station plugged into the Zen router.

Zen's customer service is excellent.


Thanks for the update, scrumpyjack.

As a Zen customer myself, whose road is currently having FTTP installed, these details are helpful to know.

One question: do Zen provide a new router when you sign up for a full fibre connection? I'm guessing it's a requirement because the input is now photons rather than electrons?

Watis

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Re: Option to install BT fibre?

#475812

Postby scrumpyjack » January 24th, 2022, 5:37 pm

Yes they do. A Fritz box. It is very good.

The termination box provided by the installer converts the photon signal to RJ45. That is then connect to the Fritzbox router. I was able to connect my existing BT Mesh system to that as well as hard wired ethernet cables. So I then have wifi both from the Zen router and from the BT Mesh system

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Re: Option to install BT fibre?

#475814

Postby Julian » January 24th, 2022, 5:56 pm

Newroad wrote:Hi All.

Currently, we have BT Infinity, which is fibre to the junction box then copper to our BT Master Socket (as I understand it). We've replaced the BT router with a better ASUS model (IMO) but we still have the BT Infinity modem which was and remains a separate device.

With two adults working from home, two teenage children and a number of PC's and TV's, we don't really have any issues (one of the reasons for this, IMO, is that we don't rely on Wifi for anything important - the network's backbone is almost all ethernet or Powerline (ethernet over power). The one place we rely on Wifi is where I've sited a 5GHz wifi adapter (which plugs into a switch connected directly to the router by ethernet) immediately adjacent to the 65" TV which works perfectly.

We now have fibre to BT Master Socket available for install, which I understand is being marketed as BT Halo. As you can see from the above, near term, no performance issue to solve (but in the future, it might be useful). However, what I'm concerned about is potential disruption at point of install, e.g. likely downtime and whethe all the work is external, i.e. up to and including the Master Socket, or whether internal work is required as well and whether kit needs to be replaced? Finally, just wondering how this works with the plan for new IP phones etc?

For the avoidance of doubt, I haven't placed the order yet.

Regards, Newroad

I'm not familiar with Halo but as mentioned by others that might be an error. Assuming we are talking about the same thing though I switched to a 500Mbps service using the Openreach FTTP network a few months ago. As already mentioned if your address is now showing on the master Openreach database as having potential access to its FTTP network then you now almost certainly have a lot more options than just BT. Simply put your address into any of the major price comparison sites and you should see all sorts of higher (>100Mbps) packages available to you from companies such as BT, Sky, Vodafone, TalkTalk and probably others.

Again, assuming we are talking about the same thing i.e. genuine Openreach FTTP then it doesn't really need to have anything whatsoever to do with your BT master socket. What happens is that you choose a consumer-facing company, let's use BT as an example because it's shorter to type but it could just as easily be someone else who you prefer e.g. Sky, TalkTalk etc. You place your order with BT and in the background BT then places an order with Openreach for it to come to your premises to do the final connection from a fibre junction box that will be lurking somewhere in the vicinity of your home into your property. That involves running a fibre optic cable from that junction box, typically to a small grey box that goes on the outside wall of your property (only about 10cm x 10 cm x 2cm). That box terminates the more robust external grade fibre cable and connects it to a slightly thinner fibre cable that is drilled through your wall at a location of your choosing so that it enters your house where you want it to. If you are happy with your current layout it would make sense to drill the hole close to where your old copper telephone line comes in but it is absolutely not a necessity.

On the inside of your property another small box will be mounted that is about 10cm x 8cm x 2cm (pretty much exactly actually, I just measured mine) which is where the thin internal grade fibre optic ends. That box does need a power supply by the way, it comes with a smallish "wall wart" power brick. By the time the Openreach engineers turn up whichever service provider you chose should have sent you its own branded FTTP router (e.g. BT, Sky etc) and the Openreach engineer will connect that to the internal Openreach box for you.

The connection from the router to the internal Openreach box is actually just a regular network cable so I don't even use the router my service provider (TalkTalk) provided me because I have a mesh setup and the base unit has a perfectly good firewall so I connected the network output from the Openreach box directly into the WAN port of my mesh router and it works perfectly(*). The basic message here is that it is entirely practical to get the Openreach internal FTTP box installed while you still leave your existing over-copper service running.

As mentioned in passing above I went for TalkTalk because it had very keen prices when I was looking. I'm paying £35 a month for a 500Mbps down, 70Mbps up connection and so far it has been flawless. I did have some trepidation beforehand because I had the impression that TalkTalk has a reputation for bad customer service. I'm not sure if that is still true but my experience has been good and when I have had to call I get through to technical people with very little hold time which is a world away from the experiences I had with Virgin Media(**). My package is broadband only, as mentioned you would also have to consider what you do if you want to keep a landline number. For that I use an IP number hosted by Zadarma (https://zadarma.com/en/) which I think costs me £2+VAT a month; I was able to port my existing number to them.

- Julian

(*) Yes, I did run various security probes to ensure that the firewall was secure.

(**) I wouldn't have had to call TalkTalk at all if it wasn't for Openreach repeatedly screwing up multiple installation appointments. I got it sorted out eventually and got quite significant compensation for my troubles so it all ended pretty well for me.

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Re: Option to install BT fibre?

#475816

Postby Newroad » January 24th, 2022, 6:00 pm

Hi Julian et al.

I got a letter (admittedly in November) saying

    "Big news. Full fibre has arrived at ..."

In the smallprint at the bottom, it said

    "Terms apply, see bt.com/halo/terms for further information"

Noted on the various points, including that I am unlikely to have to terminate the copper service in advance.

Regards, Newroad

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Re: Option to install BT fibre?

#475818

Postby AF62 » January 24th, 2022, 6:09 pm

stewamax wrote:Given BT's prices, you may get a cheaper or better-supported contract elsewhere, e.g. Zen


Doubt it.

BT charge me £22 a month for a phone line and 80MB broadband.

Zen claim the best they can do is 3 to 7 Mb broadband and for that they want to charge £33, so 50% more for 90% less.

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Re: Option to install BT fibre?

#475819

Postby scrumpyjack » January 24th, 2022, 6:18 pm

For Zen FTTP I pay £49 a month for 500mb download and 70+mb upload, unlimited use. Also the price is guaranteed not to go up in future, indefinitely as far as I can see.

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Re: Option to install BT fibre?

#475841

Postby AF62 » January 24th, 2022, 7:33 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:For Zen FTTP I pay £49 a month for 500mb download and 70+mb upload, unlimited use. Also the price is guaranteed not to go up in future, indefinitely as far as I can see.


So more than twice what I pay and BT reduced my price this year.

And do you actually use the 500Mb download speed? I have never run out of bandwidth at 80MB, even With two of us working from home in 2020, both on video calls at the same time.

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Re: Option to install BT fibre?

#475867

Postby scrumpyjack » January 24th, 2022, 9:34 pm

It is also the reliability and part of the cost difference is made up by the telephone saving. It is nice for everything to be more or less instant

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Re: Option to install BT fibre?

#475878

Postby scotia » January 24th, 2022, 10:25 pm

Our relatively modern (50 year old) housing scheme has underground cable ducts which originally connected our copper telephone lines to the nearest exchange (a few miles away). When broadband arrived, it was initially restricted to around a few Mbps. Then Fibre Cabinets arrived in our scheme, and with minimum fuss we upgraded to BT fibre-to-the-cabinet which gives us around 53Mbps/14Mbps (Down/Up). This still uses our copper cable, along the ducts, to the Cabinet. Then a few months ago a number of ugly wooden telephone poles were erected, and fibre was strung along them with connections to a few (at least one) house(s). What is particularly annoying is that much of it is strung along wide grass verges where new ducts could easily have been put underground - although I can't understand how the existing ducts cannot be used. Now I have received an email from BT offering me Full Fibre 100 with a stated average speed of 145Mbps - for an extra sum of zero. Currently 50Mbps seems adequate, although 145Mbps would be more future proof. But I don't want ugly wooden poles marching up our street, with overhead fibre connections. Maybe the starlings would enjoy it?
Why was permission given for such a backward move?

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Re: Option to install BT fibre?

#475880

Postby ayshfm1 » January 24th, 2022, 10:32 pm

Recently had BT fibre fitted the 1Gbit variant. It's brilliant. I'm absolutely sure I could get away with less bandwidth and am more often than not limited by the remote ends now.

I think I have Halo, but I only really use a subset of the facilities - I don't have their disks, I do have tenda MW6 to provide wifi mesh they work well. I think BT charge monthly for the disks, my tenda's (there are three) cost £100 from Amazon a few years back.

I did get given an Alexa phone, but it requires the BT Hub to work (digital voice their VoIP offering) I didn't use the landline and don't run the hub so that's another part I don't use. Both are in my ewaste pile. Can't chuck them though cancelling contract requires the return of their equipment. Also if there is an issue it needs to recreated with their router.

Fitting was fraught, but the problems were of my doing, I had the drive done using concrete and the ingress for Openreach was covered over. So when the engineer turned up he couldn't do the install. Sent him away and carefully chipped away the concrete. A lump though fell into the pipe and I couldn't get it out. Got the engineer back a couple of weeks later he got it out no trouble, blew the fibre down the duct and fitted what I think is an ONT into my porch near the original master socket which is still on the wall and wired in.

The VDSL worked right up until switch over, I have no outage. BT did not disconnect me when the original installation failed. So can't fault that.

The ONT requires power, that was not a problem I had power in the porch area plus the router will need power. So that's something to be aware of.

I saw mention of powerline - I ditched mine they're hopeless YMMV of course. They certainly will be a bottleneck. I bit the bullet fitted ethernet almost everywhere.

Wifi is great for phones and tablets not great for higher bandwidth lower latency usecases, in any case it will not do justice to the BT fibre, if wifi is the primary physical layer then I think there is no benefit in 500Mbits or above, 250 is probably plenty.

I think the BT homehub works fine, but I don't use it. I had a draytek 2862 as my router, which brings me to another issue, think carefully before ditching the BT router, it will do gig wan, my expensive draytek would not it maxed out at 400Mbits. At these sort of speeds some thirdparty routers especially if they have filtering capabilties will throttle.

Presentation is ethernet, so the router needs to have an ethernet WAN socket to plug into and BT uses PPPoE which is quite old. Which brings me to another issue. PPPOE is single threaded in Linux and FreeBSD so going down the roll your own router requires judicious hardware choice and or tuning.

I have an NMS on my network, LibreNMS and it pings various things, so I can also say reliability has so far been quite literally 100% up.

I eventually ended up using pfSense on a very small machine I bought off AliExpress, in the end I'm very happy with my choices and am a happy customer.

Finally here it is an example speed test, this was done over wired gig ethernet

Image

By way of contrast here is the same speed test over wifi and I think for wifi that's pretty good.

Image


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