pixel phone

[fourtwentyfour]

I'd like to buy a google pixel with the idea of changing the software from Android to one of the 'safer' variants'. I think it might be called rooting?

I understand there are two sorts of locking on a phone, to a network which I am told is now not allowed, and the software can be locked too. I think there is some sort of mark to show whether a phone is locked this way or not.

Anyway, how can I determine whether a phone is locked before purchase? I don't think that I need the latest model, I am not into cameras and fancy things, just communication, privately, and maps, really.

I understand the pixel is a good choice from videos by these two...
https://www.youtube.com/@robbraxmantech
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg00QkcpOOM

In the video above it is suggested that security is maintained when graphine is installed, but all sellers of phones tell me it is not possible?
Well, maybe they would?


Thanks.

[Urbandreamer]

In the video above it is suggested that security is maintained when graphine is installed, but all sellers of phones tell me it is not possible?
Well, maybe they would?


Thanks.

I also am thinking of buying a pixel and have researched graphine. Security "maintained" when graphine is installed? NO! existing hardware security is maintained and the security provided by the normal software replaced with that supplied by graphine.

Hence if you trust google and distrust the developers of graphine, then you are introducing a risk.
Or the reverse if the trust is reversed.

Do you use Android Auto? Last I checked that was a big issue with graphine. No Android Auto.
Also do you use and value the camera? You will be choosing a very basic camera, unless you sacrifice the privacy by using the google software.

[jaizan]

How do you know the rooted software is safe ?

I'd rather have software from some big known multi-national than some totally unknown source. For all I know, the KGB successor might be part funding the developer of rooted software.

I have a Pixel 7. I'm not that impressed by it. For example, the in screen fingerprint reader is too fussy. They try to disguise that by making the facial recognition fast, but that doesn't work when I wear sunglasses or in the dark.
Then they keep messing around with the software, in ways that do not improve it.

[Infrasonic]

I wouldn't run an alternative OS to Android as my only phone...

As a secondary 'anonymised' phone where it doesn't matter if it locks up and needs a factory reset/backup restore/reinstall, fine.

[Urbandreamer]

How do you know the rooted software is safe ?

I'd rather have software from some big known multi-national than some totally unknown source. For all I know, the KGB successor might be part funding the developer of rooted software.

To be fair, as I said, you don't know. Or for that matter the NSA with apple or google.

What you do and CAN know is how much the likes of google & apple do. It's incredibly easy to insert something into your home wifi that checks how much telemetry they use and universities have investigated the subject.

https://www.theregister.com/2021/04/01/ ... _location/

I think that you are a fan of apple, but they are not without fault in this.

As for Apple, you might think a company that proclaims "What happens on your iPhone stays on your iPhone" on billboards, and "Your data. Your choice," on its website would want to explain its permission-defying telemetry. Yet the iPhone maker did not respond to a request for comment.

[Urbandreamer]

Ooops.

I implied that you "can't know" about Graphene. This is in fact untrue.

Most people simply trust it.

However you can examine the source code yourself, then compile and install it.
https://github.com/GrapheneOS source.
https://grapheneos.org/build build instructions.

I understand that it's heavily based upon this project.
https://source.android.com/

Now can anyone claim that you can examine either google or apple's propriety code, or compile the code to ensure what is installed actually IS the code published?

[DrFfybes]

Ooops.

I implied that you "can't know" about Graphene. This is in fact untrue.

Most people simply trust it.

ITYF most people haven't even heard of it

here are literally billions of Android devices out in the wild, if there was a widespread inherent problem the Apple would be telling us all about it. AIUI the most insecure part of a smartphone is the operator, not the operating system.

[WaseemMalik]

I am using pixel 4a 5g, great experience and software with Qualcom processor although tensor G2 and G3 is greater processor with Ai feature but heating issue is still unsolved

[Urbandreamer]

Ooops.

I implied that you "can't know" about Graphene. This is in fact untrue.

Most people simply trust it.

ITYF most people haven't even heard of it

here are literally billions of Android devices out in the wild, if there was a widespread inherent problem the Apple would be telling us all about it. AIUI the most insecure part of a smartphone is the operator, not the operating system.

You are missing the point. Both Apple and Google have very significant privacy issues. This often improves the phone for the majority of users, rather than causing a "problem".

This discussion of location problems with grapheneos may give a clue as to the fact that a phone location is communicated to servers to improve GPS with the more mainstream OS's.
https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/79-loc ... -working/4

Your point that most people have not heard of privacy OS's is a telling one. Most people are not making an informed choice about how much privacy they surrender.

Their photos are geotgged and are automatically given to Apple or Google in the majority of cases. You can chose not to do this, but most don't even think.

[Infrasonic]

...Your point that most people have not heard of privacy OS's is a telling one. Most people are not making an informed choice about how much privacy they surrender....

One of the good things the EU has been doing is battling the duplicitous monopoly nature of the big tech companies wrt privacy, ecosystem lock ins, DIY repairability et al.
Apple are running into issues with app store lock in currently.

Pointedly many of these legislative changes don't apply to the UK now, so if say you want to permanently remove Edge as the default browser in Windows (because its constant intervention annoys you) and you put in Germany as the home country at account set up it can now be permanently removed, in the UK not.

[fourtwentyfour]

Thank you, this discussion is interesting.

Rob Braxman supplies a phone, or did, not sure if the latest technology has defeated him, or not. Can we assume he is confident about the security of what he supplies?

As for my use, I am a little unusual. Being monitored worries me. I am quite knowledgeable, about double your age, maybe, and don't get out much!

I would like to use a phone, text, maps, and that is it, really. A camera is useful but I don't think I have a need for multiple ones, not really high definition. My current phone is fine, a simple phone, but I miss the maps and pressing a key 3 times per letter for texts is hard work.

I can do other things with a desktop pc, I have never found the small screen of much value for the internet.

I might have problems by being excluded from services that use only mobile apps?

[Infrasonic]

...Rob Braxman supplies a phone, or did, not sure if the latest technology has defeated him, or not. Can we assume he is confident about the security of what he supplies?...

Braxman constantly makes the point on his YT channel that if you want to go down the uber privacy route you need to have more than one smartphone, as you will be locked out of say Google's ecosystem by adopting third party OS' like Graphene over stock Android.

You can reduce your web traceable footprint by use of different user accounts or VM's with alternative privacy first browsers without sacrificing functionality if you put the effort into setting it all up.

e.g I have WSL2 Ubuntu Linux VM's on my W10 desktop and W11 Laptop with Proton VPN (split tunneled) + Tailscale overlay and Brave + LibreWolf browsers.
I have a couple of Chromebooks with Crostini Debian VM's (containers) set up the same way.
Both of those options are built into the respective Windows/ChromeOS - so set up is dead easy.

On Android phones you can use anonymised alternative Google/Microsoft accounts with no email/documents/contacts history and alternative privacy first browsers, split tunnel VPN's + Tailscale etc. Flip between accounts as needed, spending most of your time in the anonymised ones.

Bear in mind if you go all in on this stuff with Nextcloud, NAS', self hosted Tailscale, self hosted DNS etc. then you'll become the defacto sys admin with all the attendant responsibilities for keeping everything secure with updates and resolving issues when things break (often IME)...

Despite their downsides one of the big advantages of ecosystems like MS/Google/Apple is that they are doing all the defensive backend stuff without you having to get involved and you have the convenience of everything just working together (...99% of the time).

I've recently taken up a paid Proton unlimited personal account - if they can add something like a cloud ready version of Libreoffice (similar to Collabora) to the already impressive suite list of cloud products I could consider leaving my Google and Microsoft accounts dormant 90% of the time.

[fourtwentyfour]

On the following board, and thanks for the link from above,

https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/9940-i ... -you-get/2

it is appears as if all pixel phones support graphine, the later ones seem to have more hardware security. They are even writing about a pixel 9, not yet available. I haven't seen any reference to phones being opperating system locked. I don't need the latest phone, nor many apps, so I guess my choices depend on cost and the frequency bands available. I don't see a need for a pro version so will look at prices, and may consider second hand.

So, the answer to my question, are pixel phones now locked to software changes, seems to be no. Please respond if you think I am wrong.

Thanks

[jaizan]

Pointedly many of these legislative changes don't apply to the UK now, so if say you want to permanently remove Edge as the default browser in Windows (because its constant intervention annoys you) and you put in Germany as the home country at account set up it can now be permanently removed, in the UK not.

This is interesting. Does the Edge deletion work properly, with no other concerns ?
I managed to delete Edge on one PC, but then something cropped up that wouldn't work without it, so I had to put Edge back in.

To be fair to Microsoft, they only give me one piece of unwanted software with their OS.
Compare, with, say Samsung, who have so much unwanted & unremovable software, that I decided to go and buy a Pixel instead.

At this point, the discussion will go full circle to rooting Android devices. When I use banking apps, e-mail etc, I'm NOT even going to consider doing that with an OS that comes from an unknown source.
That's one more thing in favour of Windows. We can obtain a copy of Windows directly and reinstall it. AFAIK, google don't make Android available for users to reinstall (from a known, reliable source).

[Infrasonic]

This is interesting. Does the Edge deletion work properly, with no other concerns ?
I managed to delete Edge on one PC, but then something cropped up that wouldn't work without it, so I had to put Edge back in.
...

From what I've read - yes.

As it is legislative in the EU then MS risk prosecution if they try the backdoor methods of retaining lock ins via "oh we need all the components to talk to each other for the OS to work properly" or "oops, sorry, the feature update overrode your settings and reinstalled all the bits you got rid of" ruse (their previous W10 route of stopping user intervention...).

Hopefully the UK follows the EU lead and copies this legislation, just yesterday the UK introduced some great law around IoT devices and outlawing default factory passwords, mandating firmware updates et al. Whoever was behind draughting it clearly understood the issues, and you can't say that about much legislation that generally ignores unintended consequences traps.

Conversely the UK draught legislation around trying to outlaw E2E encryption is woefully thought through, even if the motivation (child exploitation/human trafficking/terrorism etc) is laudable.

[stevensfo]

I'd like to buy a google pixel with the idea of changing the software from Android to one of the 'safer' variants'. I think it might be called rooting?

I understand there are two sorts of locking on a phone, to a network which I am told is now not allowed, and the software can be locked too. I think there is some sort of mark to show whether a phone is locked this way or not.

Anyway, how can I determine whether a phone is locked before purchase? I don't think that I need the latest model, I am not into cameras and fancy things, just communication, privately, and maps, really.

I understand the pixel is a good choice from videos by these two...
https://www.youtube.com/@robbraxmantech
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg00QkcpOOM

In the video above it is suggested that security is maintained when graphine is installed, but all sellers of phones tell me it is not possible?
Well, maybe they would?


Thanks.

Not sure how far you want to go to keep your anonymity, but one solution would be to keep a simple non-smartphone for regular use and buy a cheap unlocked smartphone from somewhere like Argos and a Three PAYG sim card, together with a bundle of top-up vouchers, all for cash.

I say Three because the last time I looked, they have the longest period of time unused (6 months) before locking the sim.

Then disable all Google monitoring/history functions, Photo geotagging etc. Keep Location off unless you need to use the map. Download some free VPNs and GPS spoofers, or subscribe to a paid VPN like Surfshark that changes the GPS to match the IP location.

Perhaps use Signal instead of Whatsapp?

Of course, if the KGB or CIA want to find your phone, they can still do it by triangulating the mobile signal strength between phone masts, so it's important never to link your name with that phone number.

Oh, and don't forget the false moustache, fake passports and pen that shoots poison darts.

Steve

[Urbandreamer]

Not sure how far you want to go to keep your anonymity, but one solution would be to keep a simple non-smartphone for regular use and buy a cheap unlocked smartphone from somewhere like Argos and a Three PAYG sim card, together with a bundle of top-up vouchers, all for cash.

I say Three because the last time I looked, they have the longest period of time unused (6 months) before locking the sim.
...
Oh, and don't forget the false moustache, fake passports and pen that shoots poison darts.

Steve

Cash?

I'd be tempted to either buy time from Bitrefill using bitcoin.
https://www.bitrefill.com/gb/en/esims/b ... d-kingdom/
Or if you are really serious from SilentLink using Monero.
https://silent.link/

As for Jaizan's comments about "banking"/financial apps. It's a serious consideration.

There are couple of ease of use apps that I specifically don't run as they expose the phone's screen to the internet. With Graphene you can run separate sand boxed profiles. Hence you can run "dodgy" apps like Airdroid in a separate profile from your crypto wallets, broker apps and banking apps.

He is mistaken though in his comments about Microsoft and Google. There is NO difference, when talking about a phone made by google, the OS comes from Google, just as Windows comes from Microsoft. Obviously the fact that nobody can check Microsoft or Google's code makes it safer...doesn't it?

[Infrasonic]

Just got a YT alert for this...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epB9WY70csQ

May 1, 2024
Custom Phone ROMs in 2024
Do people still do this? Well, it has been a while since I loaded a custom ROM on my phone, and it's time to revisit the custom ROM.

He mentioned Graphene as he's tried it out before, so maybe watch this and then track down his Graphene video.

[stevensfo]

Not sure how far you want to go to keep your anonymity, but one solution would be to keep a simple non-smartphone for regular use and buy a cheap unlocked smartphone from somewhere like Argos and a Three PAYG sim card, together with a bundle of top-up vouchers, all for cash.

I say Three because the last time I looked, they have the longest period of time unused (6 months) before locking the sim.
...
Oh, and don't forget the false moustache, fake passports and pen that shoots poison darts.

Steve

Cash?

I'd be tempted to either buy time from Bitrefill using bitcoin.
https://www.bitrefill.com/gb/en/esims/b ... d-kingdom/
Or if you are really serious from SilentLink using Monero.
https://silent.link/

As for Jaizan's comments about "banking"/financial apps. It's a serious consideration.

There are couple of ease of use apps that I specifically don't run as they expose the phone's screen to the internet. With Graphene you can run separate sand boxed profiles. Hence you can run "dodgy" apps like Airdroid in a separate profile from your crypto wallets, broker apps and banking apps.

He is mistaken though in his comments about Microsoft and Google. There is NO difference, when talking about a phone made by google, the OS comes from Google, just as Windows comes from Microsoft. Obviously the fact that nobody can check Microsoft or Google's code makes it safer...doesn't it?

I'd be tempted to either buy time from Bitrefill using bitcoin.
https://www.bitrefill.com/gb/en/esims/b ... d-kingdom/
Or if you are really serious from SilentLink using Monero.
https://silent.link/

Yep, it sounds fun. But with that first link, you still have only a 30 day max time limit, and with the second, you still have to connect to the internet to transfer funds. You also need an eSIM-compatible phone which tends to be more expensive. What's the point when you can simply do the same thing with cash and with no internet trace whatsoever? I know that roaming is harder now that the UK has left the EU, but you could go and get a simple PAYG sim card from somewhere like Malta or Poland that will be anonymous and allow roaming in the UK as well.

Steve

[stevensfo]

Not sure how far you want to go to keep your anonymity, but one solution would be to keep a simple non-smartphone for regular use and buy a cheap unlocked smartphone from somewhere like Argos and a Three PAYG sim card, together with a bundle of top-up vouchers, all for cash.

I say Three because the last time I looked, they have the longest period of time unused (6 months) before locking the sim.
...
Oh, and don't forget the false moustache, fake passports and pen that shoots poison darts.

Steve

Cash?

I'd be tempted to either buy time from Bitrefill using bitcoin.
https://www.bitrefill.com/gb/en/esims/b ... d-kingdom/
Or if you are really serious from SilentLink using Monero.
https://silent.link/

As for Jaizan's comments about "banking"/financial apps. It's a serious consideration.

There are couple of ease of use apps that I specifically don't run as they expose the phone's screen to the internet. With Graphene you can run separate sand boxed profiles. Hence you can run "dodgy" apps like Airdroid in a separate profile from your crypto wallets, broker apps and banking apps.

He is mistaken though in his comments about Microsoft and Google. There is NO difference, when talking about a phone made by google, the OS comes from Google, just as Windows comes from Microsoft. Obviously the fact that nobody can check Microsoft or Google's code makes it safer...doesn't it?

There are couple of ease of use apps that I specifically don't run as they expose the phone's screen to the internet.

Huh?

Which ones?

Steve