HiFi buffs? A small but good HiFi system?

[Julian]

Hi Steve,

I used to be a fan of high end audio equipment. Lusted after it at high school, left university with a maxed out credit card almost entirely due to buying hi fi equipment (and albums), and kept on upgrading and upgrading until I got to a system in 1995 that although not in the dizzy heights of crazy price-of-a-small-flat stuff you can buy now but still over £5K (and that was in 1995). Anyway that system broke down last year (25 years, can’t complain) and I decided I wanted something much less obtrusive than my just-broken floor-stander system and wasn’t willing to spend crazy money any more so I bought a pair of KEF LS50 wireless speakers and have been totally blown away by their sound quality. They actually sound, at least to my ears, significantly better than my previous system.

I’m not recommending LS50w because they are about £2,000 but they have a little brother, the KEF LSX (https://uk.kef.com/products/lsx), that has an RRP of £1,000 and currently is available from at least one place for £899 (https://www.hifix.co.uk/kef-lsx-wireless-music-system). KEF has also rolled out a version 2 of the LS50w using some fancy new technology so if they also refresh the LSX soon with the same technology (which I suspect they will) there might be some very good discounts to be had on the existing version. I haven’t heard the LSX myself but reviews I’ve read say that although they are not as good as the LS50w they are pretty close at half the price (the law of dismissing returns) and given how good I think the LS50w are then if the LSX are even close I would expect them to blow away most stuff in the price range.

Both the KEF LS50w and LSX are active speakers so the amps are built into the speakers and, despite their ability to stream from various sources being heavily promoted, they also have optical and regular audio inputs so plugging in a CD player that also has a USB port to play MP3 of a USB drive (as many CD players do, even sub-£200 ones) you could get what you want.

Since you bit at least tentatively on the concept of ripping CDs I would also add that that I went that route many years ago and would thoroughly recommend that although if you were to do it I would recommend doing it to a lossless format (e.g. FLAC) rather than MP3 (there is no such thing as lossless MP3 by the way) so that you know for sure that you have not lost any quality vs the original CD. Also be aware that it is a tedious and lengthy process, depending on how many CDs you have you will find yourself needing to remember to go and feed a new CD into whatever process you use to do the ripping every 15 or 20 minutes for days on end but maybe that’s an ideal job for lockdown! Admittedly at £900 the KEF LSX choice doesn’t leave much budget over for the source device but maybe others can suggest something there. Certainly if you were willing to roll your own solution with a Raspberry Pi it would be possible to put together a good front end for that money but I do realise that route is not for everyone but maybe there are pre-packaged options available that others could suggest that would fit within the remaining budget.

- Julian

[fisher]

I have to admit that the Brennan 2 does look easy to use and, looking at their website, I like the idea of ripping CDs and lossless mp3 quality. But it outputs only 15W to the speakers. Is this sufficient? I always believed that higher power made better use of the speakers and I dimly remember that 40W was the minimum required for a decent sound in the average living room. As a young nipper, I'm sure that my Dad never had the volume dial more than half way for a 'very' loud sound. But that was a long time ago!

Steve

I think the answer is "it depends". The brennan is extremely compact and delivers a big sound relative to its size, but it is not going to outperform a big seperates system. Its selling points are the convenience and relative simplicity for a ripping solution. If you're looking to "rock the house" it probably won't satisfy you. It does have a line out so you could hook it up to a more powerful amp in future if you wanted to I guess. They do offer a 30 day no quibble return if you're not happy.

I like the look of the Techics Ottava system referenced earlier on. Read the reviews for that too as a lot of people have downsized to it from seperates. It also plays CDs and will play from USB stick I think. See if you can find somewhere local to audition one. It has the advantage of being all in one, with speakers part of the box.

[Mike4]

[quote="Julian"] (there is no such thing as lossless MP3 by the way) /quote]


Three or four years ago there was a BBC radio science programme investigating this. They illustrated the amount of music 'data' missing from MP3s at various bitrates by (IIRC) digitising a CD at various bitrates then subtracting the lower bitrate tracks from the highest bitrate (or possibly from the original CD), and playing us the result. So in effect they were playing us the data that was lost or missing from various clips of music when digitised to MP£ at at various bitrates. Most of the clips of 'missing data' were perfectly recognisable as the track that had been ripped. Quite an ear-opener, that was...

[Howard]

I grew up in the days when newsagents were full of 'What HiFi' and other magazines rambling on and on about amplifiers, speaker power, gold or copper wires, which record player, best stylus, TDK vs Maxell cassettes etc, my Dad had speakers only found these days on a stage and I had a snooty friend who swore that his old inherited valve amplifier was superior to everything else.

Decades later, both kids are out of the house (haven't changed the locks yet) and I want to reclaim my territory. Up to now, apart from our phones, we play Christmas carols through the TV and other music via a simple 'ghetto blaster' thingy that sits in the corner of the kitchen.

So I'm looking for a good, powerful, preferably compact music centre, that plays CDs and mp3s (USB stick) with speakers that sound brilliant. Also, is there an optimum distance for placing speakers apart? I think I heard somewhere that it's not as important as it used to be.

Any ideas?


Steve

A key issue in choosing a HiFi is your age and hearing ability. After about the age of 40 the majority of us undergo a gradual loss of hearing.

I remember, when I was in my thirties, I had a friend who worked in an upmarket Hi Fi shop. He was amazed at the money spent on premium systems by people who were 60+ and obviously not hearing the same sounds as him. They were persuaded by fancy brand names and prices.

It could be argued that a “good” system for someone older than 60 might have much too treble for a younger ear. And, sadly, spending a lot of money on a “prestige” brand won’t improve the sound heard for someone who doesn’t have perfect hearing. This may be particularly true for people who have reduced their hearing range by listening to music which was too loud in their younger days.

In my experience, even with “older” ears, listening to classical music, friends who stream music have a poorer quality of sound than my humble CD system. I may have limited experience, but streamed classical music and wireless speakers introduce problems that a CD system doesn’t suffer.

The article linked below may be helpful. A brief extract is:

“I have subsequently researched and learned that a healthy young person’s hearing range is 20 to 20,000 Hz, and as wide as 12 to 28,000 Hz in laboratory conditions. Men lose 5 to 10 dB in the upper frequencies by age 40, and the loss continues with additional age. By the time we are middle-aged the upper limit reduces to 12,000 to 14,000 Hz. Beyond middle age, our sensitivity to frequency extremes at both ends continues to decline. Some of us are blessed in our older years with better hearing and listening skills than others; even so, an older person’s “golden ear” cannot compete with a youngster forever.”

https://forum.psaudio.com/t/effect-of-a ... ences/4207

regards

Howard

[servodude]

I grew up in the days when newsagents were full of 'What HiFi' and other magazines rambling on and on about amplifiers, speaker power, gold or copper wires, which record player, best stylus, TDK vs Maxell cassettes etc, my Dad had speakers only found these days on a stage and I had a snooty friend who swore that his old inherited valve amplifier was superior to everything else.

Decades later, both kids are out of the house (haven't changed the locks yet) and I want to reclaim my territory. Up to now, apart from our phones, we play Christmas carols through the TV and other music via a simple 'ghetto blaster' thingy that sits in the corner of the kitchen.

So I'm looking for a good, powerful, preferably compact music centre, that plays CDs and mp3s (USB stick) with speakers that sound brilliant. Also, is there an optimum distance for placing speakers apart? I think I heard somewhere that it's not as important as it used to be.

Any ideas?


Steve

A key issue in choosing a HiFi is your age and hearing ability. After about the age of 40 the majority of us undergo a gradual loss of hearing.

I remember, when I was in my thirties, I had a friend who worked in an upmarket Hi Fi shop. He was amazed at the money spent on premium systems by people who were 60+ and obviously not hearing the same sounds as him. They were persuaded by fancy brand names and prices.

It could be argued that a “good” system for someone older than 60 might have much too treble for a younger ear. And, sadly, spending a lot of money on a “prestige” brand won’t improve the sound heard for someone who doesn’t have perfect hearing. This may be particularly true for people who have reduced their hearing range by listening to music which was too loud in their younger days.

In my experience, even with “older” ears, listening to classical music, friends who stream music have a poorer quality of sound than my humble CD system. I may have limited experience, but streamed classical music and wireless speakers introduce problems that a CD system doesn’t suffer.

The article linked below may be helpful. A brief extract is:

“I have subsequently researched and learned that a healthy young person’s hearing range is 20 to 20,000 Hz, and as wide as 12 to 28,000 Hz in laboratory conditions. Men lose 5 to 10 dB in the upper frequencies by age 40, and the loss continues with additional age. By the time we are middle-aged the upper limit reduces to 12,000 to 14,000 Hz. Beyond middle age, our sensitivity to frequency extremes at both ends continues to decline. Some of us are blessed in our older years with better hearing and listening skills than others; even so, an older person’s “golden ear” cannot compete with a youngster forever.”

https://forum.psaudio.com/t/effect-of-a ... ences/4207

regards

Howard

I totally agree with this

..and utterly ignore it also

If you've lost your top end hearing.. (or suffer as I do from post viral tinnitus)
it doesn't really affect the rest of what you hear...it's just some bits are missing

So don't concentrate on the bandwidth on paper..
.. concentrate on dynamic response
..and fidelity within what you CAN hear!

Buy the system "one up" from where you can hear the difference...


-sd

[PhaseThree]

I grew up in the days when newsagents were full of 'What HiFi' and other magazines rambling on and on about amplifiers, speaker power, gold or copper wires, which record player, best stylus, TDK vs Maxell cassettes etc, my Dad had speakers only found these days on a stage and I had a snooty friend who swore that his old inherited valve amplifier was superior to everything else.

Decades later, both kids are out of the house (haven't changed the locks yet) and I want to reclaim my territory. Up to now, apart from our phones, we play Christmas carols through the TV and other music via a simple 'ghetto blaster' thingy that sits in the corner of the kitchen.

So I'm looking for a good, powerful, preferably compact music centre, that plays CDs and mp3s (USB stick) with speakers that sound brilliant. Also, is there an optimum distance for placing speakers apart? I think I heard somewhere that it's not as important as it used to be.

Any ideas?


Steve

A key issue in choosing a HiFi is your age and hearing ability. After about the age of 40 the majority of us undergo a gradual loss of hearing.

I remember, when I was in my thirties, I had a friend who worked in an upmarket Hi Fi shop. He was amazed at the money spent on premium systems by people who were 60+ and obviously not hearing the same sounds as him. They were persuaded by fancy brand names and prices.

It could be argued that a “good” system for someone older than 60 might have much too treble for a younger ear. And, sadly, spending a lot of money on a “prestige” brand won’t improve the sound heard for someone who doesn’t have perfect hearing. This may be particularly true for people who have reduced their hearing range by listening to music which was too loud in their younger days.

In my experience, even with “older” ears, listening to classical music, friends who stream music have a poorer quality of sound than my humble CD system. I may have limited experience, but streamed classical music and wireless speakers introduce problems that a CD system doesn’t suffer.

The article linked below may be helpful. A brief extract is:

“I have subsequently researched and learned that a healthy young person’s hearing range is 20 to 20,000 Hz, and as wide as 12 to 28,000 Hz in laboratory conditions. Men lose 5 to 10 dB in the upper frequencies by age 40, and the loss continues with additional age. By the time we are middle-aged the upper limit reduces to 12,000 to 14,000 Hz. Beyond middle age, our sensitivity to frequency extremes at both ends continues to decline. Some of us are blessed in our older years with better hearing and listening skills than others; even so, an older person’s “golden ear” cannot compete with a youngster forever.”

https://forum.psaudio.com/t/effect-of-a ... ences/4207

regards

Howard

I totally agree with this

..and utterly ignore it also

If you've lost your top end hearing.. (or suffer as I do from post viral tinnitus)
it doesn't really affect the rest of what you hear...it's just some bits are missing

So don't concentrate on the bandwidth on paper..
.. concentrate on dynamic response
..and fidelity within what you CAN hear!

Buy the system "one up" from where you can hear the difference...


-sd

I completely agree, people seem to have a lack of appreciation of the way we hear sound and what age related hearing loss means in reality.
Human hearing covers around 10 octaves at best (20Hz to 20KHz). If you loose the ability to hear the range 10KHz to 20KHz as you age you haven't lost half your hearing - you have lost the ability to hear one just octave, leaving nine working just fine.

The other thing to note is that there is very little going on in this top octave. The highest fundamental note on the Piano is around 4KHz, a piccolo around 5KHz. Most music concentrates on generating fundamental frequencies in the in the lower 7 octaves (20-2500 Hz). This is where the human ear is most sensitive and where we discern subtle changes in timbre and dynamics.

Good (not necessarily expensive) music reproduction systems let you hear these subtleties whatever your age.

[Grumpsimus]

I would like suggest another option for the original poster. The Brennan B2 appears to meet his requirements for playing CDs and MP3s, it will also usefully digitise the CDs. However, rather than use the internal amplifier and a pair of passive speakers, I would suggest a pair of active powered monitor speakers. These are also almost always far better value for money than seperate amps and passive speakers.

Suitable models are made by Edifier, Audioengine and Adam. For a £1000 you could build a small system that could blow your ears off. You certainly wont have any loudness problems!

[Gerry557]

I have the older denon dm40 which has a USB port so that might be a better version for your circumstances.

https://www.whathifi.com/best-buys/hi-f ... amplifiers

Covers the amps in Dec what hi fi. As you are more "old school" it makes it a bit harder to cater for. Others have mentioned flac.

Room size and some details of the room are still needed to offer more advice. A rough area of where you are to suggest shops that might be worth a visit.

Can you plug your USB into your router? You might be able to stream your own music from there. There are various media boxes you could use. Pi has been mentioned, I have used a vero4k+ to play music and or chromecast audio.
So you need speakers, amp, CD and some sort of media player unless one of them has usb playback built it.

@Julian. Interesting to hear about the kefs, I might have to try and demo them. I thought they were expensive little boom boxes but maybe not. A write up in the Ops favourite mag, so might give it a proper read tomorrow.

Do you have a CD player already and what do you use for the mp3s a pc I suspect.

[Bagger46]

A key issue in choosing a HiFi is your age and hearing ability. After about the age of 40 the majority of us undergo a gradual loss of hearing.

I remember, when I was in my thirties, I had a friend who worked in an upmarket Hi Fi shop. He was amazed at the money spent on premium systems by people who were 60+ and obviously not hearing the same sounds as him. They were persuaded by fancy brand names and prices.

It could be argued that a “good” system for someone older than 60 might have much too treble for a younger ear. And, sadly, spending a lot of money on a “prestige” brand won’t improve the sound heard for someone who doesn’t have perfect hearing. This may be particularly true for people who have reduced their hearing range by listening to music which was too loud in their younger days.

In my experience, even with “older” ears, listening to classical music, friends who stream music have a poorer quality of sound than my humble CD system. I may have limited experience, but streamed classical music and wireless speakers introduce problems that a CD system doesn’t suffer.

The article linked below may be helpful. A brief extract is:

“I have subsequently researched and learned that a healthy young person’s hearing range is 20 to 20,000 Hz, and as wide as 12 to 28,000 Hz in laboratory conditions. Men lose 5 to 10 dB in the upper frequencies by age 40, and the loss continues with additional age. By the time we are middle-aged the upper limit reduces to 12,000 to 14,000 Hz. Beyond middle age, our sensitivity to frequency extremes at both ends continues to decline. Some of us are blessed in our older years with better hearing and listening skills than others; even so, an older person’s “golden ear” cannot compete with a youngster forever.”

https://forum.psaudio.com/t/effect-of-a ... ences/4207

regards

Howard

I totally agree with this

..and utterly ignore it also

If you've lost your top end hearing.. (or suffer as I do from post viral tinnitus)
it doesn't really affect the rest of what you hear...it's just some bits are missing

So don't concentrate on the bandwidth on paper..
.. concentrate on dynamic response
..and fidelity within what you CAN hear!

Buy the system "one up" from where you can hear the difference...


-sd

I completely agree, people seem to have a lack of appreciation of the way we hear sound and what age related hearing loss means in reality.
Human hearing covers around 10 octaves at best (20Hz to 20KHz). If you loose the ability to hear the range 10KHz to 20KHz as you age you haven't lost half your hearing - you have lost the ability to hear one just octave, leaving nine working just fine.

The other thing to note is that there is very little going on in this top octave. The highest fundamental note on the Piano is around 4KHz, a piccolo around 5KHz. Most music concentrates on generating fundamental frequencies in the in the lower 7 octaves (20-2500 Hz). This is where the human ear is most sensitive and where we discern subtle changes in timbre and dynamics.

Good (not necessarily expensive) music reproduction systems let you hear these subtleties whatever your age.

Thanks for this technical detailed explanation. I have never considered such detailed matters being only an amateur musician, self taught(mostly clarinet, oboe and recorder). It explains why, as my hearing in the high range has gone downhill as I age, I feel I can still enjoy my HIFI nearly to the full.

Bagger

[airbus330]

Left field approach. I have a good quality Marantz CD player and Amplifier coupled to a set of KEF monitor speakers. If I want to use MP3 I plug my old classic Ipod into it. Sounded great 40 years ago when they were bought (Ipod newer obs!) and still sounds good today. Not sure my ears are as good as they were though!

[stevensfo]

You guys have given me so much advice, I've saved everything for future reference.

Meanwhile I'm tempted by the Technic Ottava SC-C70 that a few of you mentioned. It has excellent reviews and the advantage of being in one, albeit heavy box. Separate speakers were a thought, but I realised that the room is rectangular, I have a desk in one corner and the Ottava will fit perfectly in the opposite corner. The Brennan looks amazing but I'm not too worried about fast-ripping CDs at the moment. After so long, I'm not sure how many of my CDs are even playable any more, especially after 20 years of small sticky fingers getting at them. The idea is to start again, examine and most likely re-build my music collection. So that's me busy for the next ten years.

Steve

[MaraMan]

I would second RVF's advice. A couple of Sonos 1's on stands plus a subsciption to Spotify or similar is all anyone really needs I think. I also have an Arcam Solo and Arcam speakers that I link to Spotify by Chromecast, which sounds superb. Better than the Sonos, but then it cost about three times more. So anyway if you want better sound fidelity then consider this approach.
MM

[dspp]

The Brennan B2 came out in approx 2015 and is of course Pi-based. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Brennan_(engineer))

The Pi 2 was available in 2015. We are now at Pi 4 as of 2019/20. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi)

Should the OP give any thought as to when the B2 might become the B3 and if so what might get added by way of functionality ?

regards, dspp

[stacker512]

If you wanted a challenge, you could design and build your own amp. Then all you need are speakers.
For USB or CD playback, maybe someone sells a decoder module or something.

Something like the Gainclone, LM3886 for example (not my website): http://www.decdun.me.uk/gainclone.html

I was impressed by this design: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIE3igkNbO8

[Julian]

A key issue in choosing a HiFi is your age and hearing ability. After about the age of 40 the majority of us undergo a gradual loss of hearing.

I remember, when I was in my thirties, I had a friend who worked in an upmarket Hi Fi shop. He was amazed at the money spent on premium systems by people who were 60+ and obviously not hearing the same sounds as him. They were persuaded by fancy brand names and prices.

It could be argued that a “good” system for someone older than 60 might have much too treble for a younger ear. And, sadly, spending a lot of money on a “prestige” brand won’t improve the sound heard for someone who doesn’t have perfect hearing. This may be particularly true for people who have reduced their hearing range by listening to music which was too loud in their younger days.

In my experience, even with “older” ears, listening to classical music, friends who stream music have a poorer quality of sound than my humble CD system. I may have limited experience, but streamed classical music and wireless speakers introduce problems that a CD system doesn’t suffer.

The article linked below may be helpful. A brief extract is:

“I have subsequently researched and learned that a healthy young person’s hearing range is 20 to 20,000 Hz, and as wide as 12 to 28,000 Hz in laboratory conditions. Men lose 5 to 10 dB in the upper frequencies by age 40, and the loss continues with additional age. By the time we are middle-aged the upper limit reduces to 12,000 to 14,000 Hz. Beyond middle age, our sensitivity to frequency extremes at both ends continues to decline. Some of us are blessed in our older years with better hearing and listening skills than others; even so, an older person’s “golden ear” cannot compete with a youngster forever.”

https://forum.psaudio.com/t/effect-of-a ... ences/4207

regards

Howard

I'm afraid that I disagree with the above, or at least consider it to only be looking at a narrow part of the picture.

I confess that I don't listen to a lot of classical music and maybe for classical music upper frequency range is a much bigger part of the picture but for rock, blues, indie, electronic, funk, reggae etc the frequency response is by no means all of the equation, in fact I suspect it might not even be half of the equation. How good and musically satisfying a system sounds is massively influenced by how accurately it can reproduce the transients in the music, e.g. the whack when a snare drum is hit and how it keeps the speakers following the intended waveform of the recording which is particularly an issue for the bass/mid speakers since they have higher excursions and mass than tweeters thus need more power to control and alter their momentum quickly to reduce overshoots and undershoots. Those areas are where something that was discussed earlier (the "is 15W enough power" question) comes into play. More power in the amplifier isn't necessarily just to make things louder, it's also to exert a stronger grip on the speaker cone so that it can be accelerated and decelerated more precisely and that really can have a huge influence on whether a nice punchy bass line (for instance) is really engaging and bouncy or is simply somewhat of a muddy mess that really doesn't quite seem to click into a rhythm.

There are also other issues with cabinet resonances and phase coherence to consider both of which can affect the stereo imaging. There really is a lot more to getting a good sounding system than simply the frequency response. And also note that it is my understanding (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that age-related hearing loss is primarily in the higher frequencies so even someone in their 60s would still be able to notice the difference in the frequency response of a speaker able to get down to 50Hz at -3dB drop-off vs one only able to get down to 70Hz at -3dB drop-off, assuming they were listening to the type of music that has those frequency elements in it (for reference a bass guitar tends to live in the 40Hz - 400Hz range depending where you are on the fretboard and a kick drum between 50Hz & 100Hz (https://www.studybass.com/gear/bass-ton ... o%204000Hz). On electronic music with synthesisers stuff can go quite a lot lower than that, e.g. there is one mellotron part on Gene "Drawn to the Deep End" that simply can't be heard on many systems or is only there as a faint mushy mess down in the lower registers.

- Julian

[Howard]

A key issue in choosing a HiFi is your age and hearing ability. After about the age of 40 the majority of us undergo a gradual loss of hearing.

I remember, when I was in my thirties, I had a friend who worked in an upmarket Hi Fi shop. He was amazed at the money spent on premium systems by people who were 60+ and obviously not hearing the same sounds as him. They were persuaded by fancy brand names and prices.

It could be argued that a “good” system for someone older than 60 might have much too treble for a younger ear. And, sadly, spending a lot of money on a “prestige” brand won’t improve the sound heard for someone who doesn’t have perfect hearing. This may be particularly true for people who have reduced their hearing range by listening to music which was too loud in their younger days.

In my experience, even with “older” ears, listening to classical music, friends who stream music have a poorer quality of sound than my humble CD system. I may have limited experience, but streamed classical music and wireless speakers introduce problems that a CD system doesn’t suffer.

The article linked below may be helpful. A brief extract is:

“I have subsequently researched and learned that a healthy young person’s hearing range is 20 to 20,000 Hz, and as wide as 12 to 28,000 Hz in laboratory conditions. Men lose 5 to 10 dB in the upper frequencies by age 40, and the loss continues with additional age. By the time we are middle-aged the upper limit reduces to 12,000 to 14,000 Hz. Beyond middle age, our sensitivity to frequency extremes at both ends continues to decline. Some of us are blessed in our older years with better hearing and listening skills than others; even so, an older person’s “golden ear” cannot compete with a youngster forever.”

https://forum.psaudio.com/t/effect-of-a ... ences/4207

regards

Howard

I'm afraid that I disagree with the above, or at least consider it to only be looking at a narrow part of the picture.

I confess that I don't listen to a lot of classical music and maybe for classical music upper frequency range is a much bigger part of the picture but for rock, blues, indie, electronic, funk, reggae etc the frequency response is by no means all of the equation, in fact I suspect it might not even be half of the equation. How good and musically satisfying a system sounds is massively influenced by how accurately it can reproduce the transients in the music, e.g. the whack when a snare drum is hit and how it keeps the speakers following the intended waveform of the recording which is particularly an issue for the bass/mid speakers since they have higher excursions and mass than tweeters thus need more power to control and alter their momentum quickly to reduce overshoots and undershoots. Those areas are where something that was discussed earlier (the "is 15W enough power" question) comes into play. More power in the amplifier isn't necessarily just to make things louder, it's also to exert a stronger grip on the speaker cone so that it can be accelerated and decelerated more precisely and that really can have a huge influence on whether a nice punchy bass line (for instance) is really engaging and bouncy or is simply somewhat of a muddy mess that really doesn't quite seem to click into a rhythm.

There are also other issues with cabinet resonances and phase coherence to consider both of which can affect the stereo imaging. There really is a lot more to getting a good sounding system than simply the frequency response. And also note that it is my understanding (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that age-related hearing loss is primarily in the higher frequencies so even someone in their 60s would still be able to notice the difference in the frequency response of a speaker able to get down to 50Hz at -3dB drop-off vs one only able to get down to 70Hz at -3dB drop-off, assuming they were listening to the type of music that has those frequency elements in it (for reference a bass guitar tends to live in the 40Hz - 400Hz range depending where you are on the fretboard and a kick drum between 50Hz & 100Hz (https://www.studybass.com/gear/bass-ton ... o%204000Hz). On electronic music with synthesisers stuff can go quite a lot lower than that, e.g. there is one mellotron part on Gene "Drawn to the Deep End" that simply can't be heard on many systems or is only there as a faint mushy mess down in the lower registers.

- Julian

Dear Julian


You didn’t post Steve’s original question which I was replying to. Are you answering a completely different question?

Steve asked:

"Decades later, both kids are out of the house (haven't changed the locks yet) and I want to reclaim my territory. Up to now, apart from our phones, we play Christmas carols through the TV and other music via a simple 'ghetto blaster' thingy that sits in the corner of the kitchen.

So I'm looking for a good, powerful, preferably compact music centre, that plays CDs and mp3s (USB stick) with speakers that sound brilliant. Also, is there an optimum distance for placing speakers apart? I think I heard somewhere that it's not as important as it used to be.

Any ideas?"

I guessed from Steve’s comments that he was around his mid sixties. He said he was looking for preferably a compact music centre. And added “So basically, I'd like a smallish standalone system but with decent speakers that sound good with all music. Prepared to pay above average. Depending on mood, I can listen to anything from Punk to Heavy Metal to Medieval Motets.”

Your comments above remind me of discussions about wine.

If someone asks for a recommendation for a good quality supermarket wine, is it helpful to talk about Chateau Montrose 2009 which is a snip from Harvey Nichols at only £400 a bottle? Despite the wonderful description which sums it up beautifully:

“A drop-dead gorgeous Claret, full-bodied with silky tannins and refined flavours of blackcurrants, blackberries, black cherries, blueberries, violets, vanilla pods and cedar. Allow it to breath and some really interesting spices develop. This was one of the wines of the phenomenal 2009 vintage and is not to be missed. But when it comes to food matches it should be treated with the reverence that it deserves, think boeuf en croute, filet mignon, rack of lamb or game pie, avoid overly complicated and exotic sauces and let the Montrose take centre stage.”

I think it would be more helpful to recommend a bottle at £10.

I agree that there are some wonderful Hi Fi systems. I'm sure you are right about technical features such as "cabinet resonances" and "phase coherence", but are they helpful for Steve in choosing his compact music centre?

regards

Howard

[stevensfo]

A key issue in choosing a HiFi is your age and hearing ability. After about the age of 40 the majority of us undergo a gradual loss of hearing.

I remember, when I was in my thirties, I had a friend who worked in an upmarket Hi Fi shop. He was amazed at the money spent on premium systems by people who were 60+ and obviously not hearing the same sounds as him. They were persuaded by fancy brand names and prices.

It could be argued that a “good” system for someone older than 60 might have much too treble for a younger ear. And, sadly, spending a lot of money on a “prestige” brand won’t improve the sound heard for someone who doesn’t have perfect hearing. This may be particularly true for people who have reduced their hearing range by listening to music which was too loud in their younger days.

In my experience, even with “older” ears, listening to classical music, friends who stream music have a poorer quality of sound than my humble CD system. I may have limited experience, but streamed classical music and wireless speakers introduce problems that a CD system doesn’t suffer.

The article linked below may be helpful. A brief extract is:

“I have subsequently researched and learned that a healthy young person’s hearing range is 20 to 20,000 Hz, and as wide as 12 to 28,000 Hz in laboratory conditions. Men lose 5 to 10 dB in the upper frequencies by age 40, and the loss continues with additional age. By the time we are middle-aged the upper limit reduces to 12,000 to 14,000 Hz. Beyond middle age, our sensitivity to frequency extremes at both ends continues to decline. Some of us are blessed in our older years with better hearing and listening skills than others; even so, an older person’s “golden ear” cannot compete with a youngster forever.”

https://forum.psaudio.com/t/effect-of-a ... ences/4207

regards

Howard

I'm afraid that I disagree with the above, or at least consider it to only be looking at a narrow part of the picture.

I confess that I don't listen to a lot of classical music and maybe for classical music upper frequency range is a much bigger part of the picture but for rock, blues, indie, electronic, funk, reggae etc the frequency response is by no means all of the equation, in fact I suspect it might not even be half of the equation. How good and musically satisfying a system sounds is massively influenced by how accurately it can reproduce the transients in the music, e.g. the whack when a snare drum is hit and how it keeps the speakers following the intended waveform of the recording which is particularly an issue for the bass/mid speakers since they have higher excursions and mass than tweeters thus need more power to control and alter their momentum quickly to reduce overshoots and undershoots. Those areas are where something that was discussed earlier (the "is 15W enough power" question) comes into play. More power in the amplifier isn't necessarily just to make things louder, it's also to exert a stronger grip on the speaker cone so that it can be accelerated and decelerated more precisely and that really can have a huge influence on whether a nice punchy bass line (for instance) is really engaging and bouncy or is simply somewhat of a muddy mess that really doesn't quite seem to click into a rhythm.

There are also other issues with cabinet resonances and phase coherence to consider both of which can affect the stereo imaging. There really is a lot more to getting a good sounding system than simply the frequency response. And also note that it is my understanding (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that age-related hearing loss is primarily in the higher frequencies so even someone in their 60s would still be able to notice the difference in the frequency response of a speaker able to get down to 50Hz at -3dB drop-off vs one only able to get down to 70Hz at -3dB drop-off, assuming they were listening to the type of music that has those frequency elements in it (for reference a bass guitar tends to live in the 40Hz - 400Hz range depending where you are on the fretboard and a kick drum between 50Hz & 100Hz (https://www.studybass.com/gear/bass-ton ... o%204000Hz). On electronic music with synthesisers stuff can go quite a lot lower than that, e.g. there is one mellotron part on Gene "Drawn to the Deep End" that simply can't be heard on many systems or is only there as a faint mushy mess down in the lower registers.

- Julian

Dear Julian


You didn’t post Steve’s original question which I was replying to. Are you answering a completely different question?

Steve asked:

"Decades later, both kids are out of the house (haven't changed the locks yet) and I want to reclaim my territory. Up to now, apart from our phones, we play Christmas carols through the TV and other music via a simple 'ghetto blaster' thingy that sits in the corner of the kitchen.

So I'm looking for a good, powerful, preferably compact music centre, that plays CDs and mp3s (USB stick) with speakers that sound brilliant. Also, is there an optimum distance for placing speakers apart? I think I heard somewhere that it's not as important as it used to be.

Any ideas?"

I guessed from Steve’s comments that he was around his mid sixties. He said he was looking for preferably a compact music centre. And added “So basically, I'd like a smallish standalone system but with decent speakers that sound good with all music. Prepared to pay above average. Depending on mood, I can listen to anything from Punk to Heavy Metal to Medieval Motets.”

Your comments above remind me of discussions about wine.

If someone asks for a recommendation for a good quality supermarket wine, is it helpful to talk about Chateau Montrose 2009 which is a snip from Harvey Nichols at only £400 a bottle? Despite the wonderful description which sums it up beautifully:

“A drop-dead gorgeous Claret, full-bodied with silky tannins and refined flavours of blackcurrants, blackberries, black cherries, blueberries, violets, vanilla pods and cedar. Allow it to breath and some really interesting spices develop. This was one of the wines of the phenomenal 2009 vintage and is not to be missed. But when it comes to food matches it should be treated with the reverence that it deserves, think boeuf en croute, filet mignon, rack of lamb or game pie, avoid overly complicated and exotic sauces and let the Montrose take centre stage.”

I think it would be more helpful to recommend a bottle at £10.

I agree that there are some wonderful Hi Fi systems. I'm sure you are right about technical features such as "cabinet resonances" and "phase coherence", but are they helpful for Steve in choosing his compact music centre?

regards

Howard

Well, I'm still five years to go before my 'mid-sixties' and when I get there, I will probably celebrate by really changing the locks instead of thinking about it. Also, although I've now decided to go for a standalone box system, by that time, I may even have separate speakers! One reason I like the idea of having everything in one box is that when our two reprobates come home, I can pick it up and hide it. I don't see a huge difference between them in their mid-twenties or mid-teens and don't want either of them using it to play their goddam awful music! Not sure what the eldest is into, but it sounds like someone torturing a cat while the others play their instruments at random.

Yes, my hearing has definitely deteriorated slightly over time. I played clarinet for years in a 'very amateur' wind band, with flutes in front of me and trumpets behind, and still not sure which I hate most, though the trumpets definitely didn't do my hearing much good.
I'm willing to take time off for some French cuisine as well and have both 'Floyd on France' books (the Boeuf Provencal is to die for!), though personally I consider Italian wine to be superior in quality-price ratio. You can't beat a really good Primitivo or Aglianico. All the undrinkable stuff just gets a 'Chianti' label stuck on and sent to the UK.

Thanks again for all the brilliant advice.

Steve

[tikunetih]

Given your preference for a quality single box unit and the 1k max budget, in your shoes I'd plump for a Sonos Five plus 4 years subscription to Spotify. Life's too short to be ripping CDs...

You'll be amazed at:
(i) how good it sounds, particularly if you can get temporary one-off access to an iPhone/iPad in order to Trueplay tune the Sonos speaker to the room you plonk it and its positioning;

(ii) how much you rapidly come to value the convenience and choice of playing and controlling pretty much any music/radio you want from any device you happen to have to hand.

Then revisit as you approach your mid-sixties, by which time you'll likely discover you've collected several more 'smart' speaker....

NB note to other Sonos users: by all accounts the Ikea Symfonisk at £89 a shot are supposed to be cracking value for money, should extra Sonos speakers be needed for secondary/tertiary positions which don't warrant ponying up for a Sonos One or higher.

[Redmires]

So the way forward seems to be - throw away all of your CD's and LP's and pay again to have them streamed into your house. The world is going mad !

[Itsallaguess]

So the way forward seems to be - throw away all of your CD's and LP's and pay again to have them streamed into your house. The world is going mad !

And your 78s too if you have any. But yes, that's about the measure of it. Though as I have already said, the joy of having more or less the entire recorded works of music at my fingertips really does mean that I am happy for recorded music on hardware to go the way of the Dodo in my home. Setting aside any emotional attachment, it's really no different than 78s > LPs > CDs, is it? And in addition there's cassette tape and 8 track cartridges too as well as Mini Disc etc.... It's technological progress I'm afraid.

I could see why we might perhaps criticise on-line streaming services if all we had access to was the music we already owned in a previous format, but surely the greatest benefit of things like Spotify is that we've not only got on-demand digital access to our own much-loved record-collection, but we've also now got access to everyone else's too, for a relatively really low cost when it comes to personal entertainment...

I think there's parallels here with the electric-bike development, where some people might think it's somehow 'cheating' for someone to want to go out on a partially-powered bike, but where many owners simply say that they never used to actually use their non-electric bikes, but they now manage to get out all the time on their new ones..

If these new music streaming services actually get us to turn the hi-fi on more than we did in the past, because access to almost any music is so fast and simple, then that's got to be a good thing, right?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess