HiFi buffs? A small but good HiFi system?

[Redmires]

I don't live in the stone age. All my CD's & LP's (and yes, tapes and minidiscs) are digitised for streaming on my Naim/Linn setup. And I do like listening to the radio, including Radio Paradise mentioned previously. Guess I just enjoy the physical media, just like my books. And it's just as well I kept hold of this which cost about £7 in the 80's.

https://www.discogs.com/sell/release/7154298?ev=rb

[stevensfo]

As the OP, I have to thank everyone- again - but this time also those who made me consider streaming as well as real CDs. Last night I downloaded and explored the Spotify app (free version) and was impressed! All my old LPs were there, pop, heavy metal and some brilliant jazz compilations. Exploring the classical section was a bit weird. Mozart's Rondo alla Turca sounded like it was being played by someone on steroids and there was one album with Bach's Fugues played with seaside background noise. I mean WTF?? I reckon I'll combine this with some original CDs for when the internet stops working. Still not sure what more I get with the paid version. So it looks like being the Technics Ottava or similar, e.f. Bose Wave iv, since these have a CD player built in.


Steve

[Julian]

A key issue in choosing a HiFi is your age and hearing ability. After about the age of 40 the majority of us undergo a gradual loss of hearing.

I remember, when I was in my thirties, I had a friend who worked in an upmarket Hi Fi shop. He was amazed at the money spent on premium systems by people who were 60+ and obviously not hearing the same sounds as him. They were persuaded by fancy brand names and prices.

It could be argued that a “good” system for someone older than 60 might have much too treble for a younger ear. And, sadly, spending a lot of money on a “prestige” brand won’t improve the sound heard for someone who doesn’t have perfect hearing. This may be particularly true for people who have reduced their hearing range by listening to music which was too loud in their younger days.

In my experience, even with “older” ears, listening to classical music, friends who stream music have a poorer quality of sound than my humble CD system. I may have limited experience, but streamed classical music and wireless speakers introduce problems that a CD system doesn’t suffer.

The article linked below may be helpful. A brief extract is:

“I have subsequently researched and learned that a healthy young person’s hearing range is 20 to 20,000 Hz, and as wide as 12 to 28,000 Hz in laboratory conditions. Men lose 5 to 10 dB in the upper frequencies by age 40, and the loss continues with additional age. By the time we are middle-aged the upper limit reduces to 12,000 to 14,000 Hz. Beyond middle age, our sensitivity to frequency extremes at both ends continues to decline. Some of us are blessed in our older years with better hearing and listening skills than others; even so, an older person’s “golden ear” cannot compete with a youngster forever.”

https://forum.psaudio.com/t/effect-of-a ... ences/4207

regards

Howard

I'm afraid that I disagree with the above, or at least consider it to only be looking at a narrow part of the picture.

I confess that I don't listen to a lot of classical music and maybe for classical music upper frequency range is a much bigger part of the picture but for rock, blues, indie, electronic, funk, reggae etc the frequency response is by no means all of the equation, in fact I suspect it might not even be half of the equation. How good and musically satisfying a system sounds is massively influenced by how accurately it can reproduce the transients in the music, e.g. the whack when a snare drum is hit and how it keeps the speakers following the intended waveform of the recording which is particularly an issue for the bass/mid speakers since they have higher excursions and mass than tweeters thus need more power to control and alter their momentum quickly to reduce overshoots and undershoots. Those areas are where something that was discussed earlier (the "is 15W enough power" question) comes into play. More power in the amplifier isn't necessarily just to make things louder, it's also to exert a stronger grip on the speaker cone so that it can be accelerated and decelerated more precisely and that really can have a huge influence on whether a nice punchy bass line (for instance) is really engaging and bouncy or is simply somewhat of a muddy mess that really doesn't quite seem to click into a rhythm.

There are also other issues with cabinet resonances and phase coherence to consider both of which can affect the stereo imaging. There really is a lot more to getting a good sounding system than simply the frequency response. And also note that it is my understanding (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that age-related hearing loss is primarily in the higher frequencies so even someone in their 60s would still be able to notice the difference in the frequency response of a speaker able to get down to 50Hz at -3dB drop-off vs one only able to get down to 70Hz at -3dB drop-off, assuming they were listening to the type of music that has those frequency elements in it (for reference a bass guitar tends to live in the 40Hz - 400Hz range depending where you are on the fretboard and a kick drum between 50Hz & 100Hz (https://www.studybass.com/gear/bass-ton ... o%204000Hz). On electronic music with synthesisers stuff can go quite a lot lower than that, e.g. there is one mellotron part on Gene "Drawn to the Deep End" that simply can't be heard on many systems or is only there as a faint mushy mess down in the lower registers.

- Julian

Dear Julian


You didn’t post Steve’s original question which I was replying to. Are you answering a completely different question?

Steve asked:

"Decades later, both kids are out of the house (haven't changed the locks yet) and I want to reclaim my territory. Up to now, apart from our phones, we play Christmas carols through the TV and other music via a simple 'ghetto blaster' thingy that sits in the corner of the kitchen.

So I'm looking for a good, powerful, preferably compact music centre, that plays CDs and mp3s (USB stick) with speakers that sound brilliant. Also, is there an optimum distance for placing speakers apart? I think I heard somewhere that it's not as important as it used to be.

Any ideas?"

I guessed from Steve’s comments that he was around his mid sixties. He said he was looking for preferably a compact music centre. And added “So basically, I'd like a smallish standalone system but with decent speakers that sound good with all music. Prepared to pay above average. Depending on mood, I can listen to anything from Punk to Heavy Metal to Medieval Motets.”

Your comments above remind me of discussions about wine.

If someone asks for a recommendation for a good quality supermarket wine, is it helpful to talk about Chateau Montrose 2009 which is a snip from Harvey Nichols at only £400 a bottle? Despite the wonderful description which sums it up beautifully:

“A drop-dead gorgeous Claret, full-bodied with silky tannins and refined flavours of blackcurrants, blackberries, black cherries, blueberries, violets, vanilla pods and cedar. Allow it to breath and some really interesting spices develop. This was one of the wines of the phenomenal 2009 vintage and is not to be missed. But when it comes to food matches it should be treated with the reverence that it deserves, think boeuf en croute, filet mignon, rack of lamb or game pie, avoid overly complicated and exotic sauces and let the Montrose take centre stage.”

I think it would be more helpful to recommend a bottle at £10.

I agree that there are some wonderful Hi Fi systems. I'm sure you are right about technical features such as "cabinet resonances" and "phase coherence", but are they helpful for Steve in choosing his compact music centre?

regards

Howard

Hi Howard,

I was responding specifically to your post and in particular to your comment ...

spending a lot of money on a “prestige” brand won’t improve the sound heard for someone who doesn’t have perfect hearing

... because for the reasons mentioned I don't believe that to be true especially within the context of age-related loss of hearing at higher frequencies. This is because of the other factors I mentioned, particularly dynamics (transient response) and how far down (as opposed to up) the frequency spectrum a system can go, that can significantly affect the quality of the sound. These factors are not limited to expensive systems, they are properties of any system right down to sub £100 Bluetooth speakers where some will do better in certain aspects (be more dynamic, go lower) than others. Someone with high-end hearing loss would still be able to appreciate a significant difference between a well executed and a poorly executed system at pretty much any price point. To some extent you get what you pay for although as things get to the higher end there is very definitely a law of diminishing returns and also the risk of some of your money going to marketing to support a "prestige brand" as opposed to all of the money going into the quality of the product and different manufacturers make different decisions regarding how much of the cost goes into extra features vs a stripped down product with fewer features but trying to do the basics as well as possible.

I didn't quote Steve's original question because I had already made my suggestion for a compact 3 box system (2 x speakers + player, no separate amplifier) that could fit within his stated budget (just). Admittedly I did suggest something right at the top end of his stated budget because he did say in his first paragraph that he wanted a system "with speakers that sound brilliant" so I though it worth exploring the top of his budget.

Ultimately though your analogy about wine is apposite. There is no absolute metric of perceived audio quality in the same way that there is no absolute metric of an enjoyable wine. Price is certainly not a metric in either case neither is prestige brand. In the same way that someone might prefer a mid price wine to an eye-wateringly expensive wine because the less expensive wine is more to their personal tastes. Sadly the same is true of audio. One person might rave about how "neutral" a system is in that it accurately plays exactly the frequencies on the recording whereas another person might find such a system clinical and sterile and simply not much fun to listen to (and if I was to characterise myself I would say I'm that later person, I've gone the path of supposedly very accomplished neutral "reproduce the underlying recording exactly as intended" components and found them sterile and unenjoyable). On the other hand someone might love a system because it's got a powerful bass response whereas another person might consider the bass on that system overblown and obscuring stuff in the midrange such as vocals.

Sadly with personal taste involved in audio systems there is no one system that anyone here can recommend that we can be sure would suit Steve's personal tastes. If we weren't in such a messed up world at the moment my ultimate recommendation to Steve would be to get a shortlist of stuff and go into a few shops to listen to it (Richer Sounds has a pretty decent range of stuff from fairly high end (well above £1,000) down to sub £300 mini systems) but sadly with us about to enter lockdown that isn't really an option at the moment so, unless he is willing to wait until non-essential retail opens up again, anything he buys is going to be something of a risk despite all our well-meant recommendations. I suppose he can always send stuff back and try again under the 14 day return policy but that's a real hassle if it takes him 2 or 3 goes to end up with something that he personally finds satisfying.

- Julian

[Howard]

Hi Howard

Ultimately though your analogy about wine is apposite. There is no absolute metric of perceived audio quality in the same way that there is no absolute metric of an enjoyable wine. Price is certainly not a metric in either case neither is prestige brand. In the same way that someone might prefer a mid price wine to an eye-wateringly expensive wine because the less expensive wine is more to their personal tastes. Sadly the same is true of audio. One person might rave about how "neutral" a system is in that it accurately plays exactly the frequencies on the recording whereas another person might find such a system clinical and sterile and simply not much fun to listen to (and if I was to characterise myself I would say I'm that later person, I've gone the path of supposedly very accomplished neutral "reproduce the underlying recording exactly as intended" components and found them sterile and unenjoyable). On the other hand someone might love a system because it's got a powerful bass response whereas another person might consider the bass on that system overblown and obscuring stuff in the midrange such as vocals.

Sadly with personal taste involved in audio systems there is no one system that anyone here can recommend that we can be sure would suit Steve's personal tastes. If we weren't in such a messed up world at the moment my ultimate recommendation to Steve would be to get a shortlist of stuff and go into a few shops to listen to it (Richer Sounds has a pretty decent range of stuff from fairly high end (well above £1,000) down to sub £300 mini systems) but sadly with us about to enter lockdown that isn't really an option at the moment so, unless he is willing to wait until non-essential retail opens up again, anything he buys is going to be something of a risk despite all our well-meant recommendations. I suppose he can always send stuff back and try again under the 14 day return policy but that's a real hassle if it takes him 2 or 3 goes to end up with something that he personally finds satisfying.

- Julian

Dear Julian

You are right.

And your comment about listening to a system before buying is very helpful advice.

However, you have tempted me to be pretentious.

If you are prepared to spend, then there are even better quality sounds than the best system.

A box at Covent Garden to listen to “La Traviata”, a trip to Berlin to hear the Berlin Philharmonic conducted by Simon Rattle playing Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony at the concert to celebrate the 25th Anniversary of the wall coming down, a seat in the stalls at La Scala Milan for “Tosca”.

Attending a wonderful concert by Anoushka Shankar and suddenly realising that the guy in the seat in front of us who is enthusiastically applauding her sitar playing is Sting.

I could go on …. and I'm sure there are other posters who have had similar pleasure from rock concerts.

They are happy reflections for me whilst I listen to CDs played by my modest Bose system - I’m sure I’m missing the top notes now. But the memories are the highest fidelity of all.

regards

Howard

[kiloran]

If we weren't in such a messed up world at the moment my ultimate recommendation to Steve would be to get a shortlist of stuff and go into a few shops to listen to it
- Julian

Even that may not be successful. Many years ago, I had a pair of KEFs that I thought were great. One of my mates was interested in them so I took them round to his house, along with a few of my LPs. They were rubbish, when playing music I played at home, even though his room was not disimilar to mine in size and furnishings. Little bass and a generally 'lifeless' sound. Repositioning the speakers in the room didn't help.

--kiloran

[chris]

Hi Steve

The only problem with testing a system at a shop like Richer Sounds is that you go there with a budget in mind and come out having spent twice as much. I got offers on every piece of equipment that I bought but when I listened to speakers with a budget of about £250-£300, I was unimpressed with all of them when paired with my preferred option of a Cambridge CXN streamer and CXA80 amp (both open box items at 60% of list but still over £1k).

Then they showed me open box versions of Dali speakers and they simply blew away everything else that I had heard. Because they were open box, they had 50% off and the nice guys in the shop picked out the best 2 of 4 available. £500 for the pair (normally £500 each speaker) + cable cost later, I had to face my wife with news of what I had just spent!

So by all means go in to test them but be prepared for a serious hit to your wallet!!

Do I regret the expense? Not a bit - I love the system and with my music on an NAS but also with access to internet radio, it gets listened to a lot more than the old system did.

Chris

[servodude]

Little bass and a generally 'lifeless' sound.

With KEFs?

If you ever find yourself in the same boat
- check the phase
And if it's not that check that the impedance is right for the amp

-sd

[kiloran]

Little bass and a generally 'lifeless' sound.

With KEFs?

If you ever find yourself in the same boat
- check the phase
And if it's not that check that the impedance is right for the amp

-sd

Yes, we certainly had the two speakers correctly phased. Can't remember the impedance.... it was 50 years ago!

--kiloran

[servodude]

Little bass and a generally 'lifeless' sound.

With KEFs?

If you ever find yourself in the same boat
- check the phase
And if it's not that check that the impedance is right for the amp

-sd

Yes, we certainly had the two speakers correctly phased. Can't remember the impedance.... it was 50 years ago!

--kiloran

They'll be nicely broken in by now
Good stuff never really dies
- it's not just vinyl that's had a bit of a resurgence
- helped a young friend with a valve swap recently on a pair of Quad II Mono blocks he'd inherited

Fair enough the stuff these days is easier to live with - but it's just not the same

- sd

[Mike4]

I don't live in the stone age. All my CD's & LP's (and yes, tapes and minidiscs) are digitised for streaming on my Naim/Linn setup.

Really? And can you not detect a mahoosive reduction in sound quality as a result? Dynamic range in particular seems to suffer horribly when digitising LPs and CDs in my experience. And the sound quality that one gets from Spotify is 'ok' for listening in the car but simply dire if listening at home on a decent 1970s hifi system.

I've yet to listen to a piece of music via the internet which delivers a sound quality any better than 'mediocre' to 'disappointing', and not a patch on what you get with a decent FM tuner and a good aerial. Maybe my Mac just needs a decent sound card fitting, but I doubt it.

[Redmires]

I don't live in the stone age. All my CD's & LP's (and yes, tapes and minidiscs) are digitised for streaming on my Naim/Linn setup.

Really? And can you not detect a mahoosive reduction in sound quality as a result? Dynamic range in particular seems to suffer horribly when digitising LPs and CDs in my experience. And the sound quality that one gets from Spotify is 'ok' for listening in the car but simply dire if listening at home on a decent 1970s hifi system.

I've yet to listen to a piece of music via the internet which delivers a sound quality any better than 'mediocre' to 'disappointing', and not a patch on what you get with a decent FM tuner and a good aerial. Maybe my Mac just needs a decent sound card fitting, but I doubt it.

Who mentioned sound quality, I didn't. I digitised the collection for when I'm pottering round the house, shed or in the car. Background music if you like. For serious listening, the vinyl (or CD) comes out, the lights go out and a glass of wine or two are consumed.

[Mike4]

Who mentioned sound quality, I didn't.

The OP mentioned it in the thread title, seeing as you ask.

[tikunetih]

And the sound quality that one gets from Spotify is 'ok' for listening in the car but simply dire if listening at home on a decent 1970s hifi system.

I don't know what your setup or bitrate is, but for my usage with Sonos speakers, Spotify over Sonos uses 320 kbps Ogg Vorbis. While this encoding is a lossy system (albeit a high quality one), I'd be surprised if you could frequently and consistently spot it in blind testing vs. a CD source or a lossless format, unless you've been very specifically trained to spot certain cues and which you've become unusually skilful at.

eg. According to these folks who aren't entirely ignorant of such questions:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru ... sic.14321/

"But the tl;dr answer to this question - it's extremely unlikely that you will be able to spot the difference. There are very few examples on the net of people successfully differentiating high bitrate lossy and lossless formats if compared properly."

"I would be shocked if any normal listener can detect a problem in program material, though."

"I’ve had a Spotify Premium (320kbps) account for a long time and decided to try out Tidal after reading so many glowing reviews about the sound quality. Over the past couple of months I’ve been listening to both, occasionally switching from one to the other while working at my computer. For the life of me, I can’t hear one iota of difference. This lead me to wonder if I’m either clueless and/or going deaf, of if there really is virtually no audible difference. I have to wonder how much placebo is effecting people making these statements about Tidal/lossless."

And read this, which is pertinent:
Lossless vs. Lossy. Can your ears tell the difference? Blind Test Results
https://cdvsmp3.wordpress.com/cd-vs-itu ... t-results/
NB the Apple 256 kbps AAC is comparable to Spotify over Sonos' 320 kbps Ogg Vorbis.

There's always been loads of bo!!ocks talked about "hifi" because it's in a lot of people's monetary interests to have people believe stuff that doesn't stand up to proper scrutiny (proper blind testing).

[servodude]

I don't live in the stone age. All my CD's & LP's (and yes, tapes and minidiscs) are digitised for streaming on my Naim/Linn setup.

Really? And can you not detect a mahoosive reduction in sound quality as a result? Dynamic range in particular seems to suffer horribly when digitising LPs and CDs in my experience. And the sound quality that one gets from Spotify is 'ok' for listening in the car but simply dire if listening at home on a decent 1970s hifi system.

I've yet to listen to a piece of music via the internet which delivers a sound quality any better than 'mediocre' to 'disappointing', and not a patch on what you get with a decent FM tuner and a good aerial. Maybe my Mac just needs a decent sound card fitting, but I doubt it.

It's possible to have better dynamic range on "compressed" music than on CD
- but it's not generally the default option

so Check your spotify settings!
- there's a Music Quality setting under edit->preferences
- on very high this should be equivalent to 320bps or lossless if it can manage it
normal/automatic on mobile devices used to be 96bps which would work for things post "the loudness war" (stuff with a 6db dynamic range)
- but not for real music

Also remove the "Volume Normalize" settings if you can
- that's done locally and the last thing you need is companding that was added as an afterthought

The DAC on a MAC will generally be OK (or indeed "pretty good")
- the drivers though might not be able to service what you're putting it through; think headphone vs line-level
or it might just need tinkering with the levels

-sd

[servodude]

There's always been loads of bo!!ocks talked about "hifi" because it's in a lot of people's monetary interests to have people believe stuff that doesn't stand up to proper scrutiny (proper blind testing).

Indeed
- and there's some music that shows up deficiencies more easily than others
- sections with bass drums and hi hats/cymbals will stretch any lossy compression algorithm

and the bit when the trumpet comes in in "A Life (1895 - 1915)" - By Mark Hollis will show up your speakers

Alternatively, using "Oh Yeah" by Yello as a demo track has been a standard for selling "hi fi" since it came out

- sd

[tikunetih]

Also remove the "Volume Normalize" settings if you can
- that's done locally and the last thing you need is companding that was added as an afterthought

That's a good reminder for me...

Using Spotify Connect to cast to Sonos, the app's Music Quality settings are ignored (because the Sonos devices are hard coded to use 320kbps Ogg Vorbis bitrates that I mentioned above).

Now, I did have the Spotify app's Streaming and Download Quality settings set to Very High, because these are relevant when I use Spotify in the car with Android Auto and because I know from experience that low bitrate files are audibly poor, BUT I mistakenly had Normalize Volume set to on. No longer - fixed that! Cheers sd.

[Redmires]

Who mentioned sound quality, I didn't.

The OP mentioned it in the thread title, seeing as you ask.

Then why reply to my post with "Really? And can you not detect a mahoosive reduction in sound quality" when I made no mention of SQ and I wasn't the OP ?

[servodude]

Who mentioned sound quality, I didn't.

The OP mentioned it in the thread title, seeing as you ask.

Then why reply to my post with "Really? And can you not detect a mahoosive reduction in sound quality" when I made no mention of SQ and I wasn't the OP ?

Some people read threads as though they're one big continuous thread of conversation
Others are less prone to do this
- this can mean that what are offered as interesting asides get interpreted as contributions to that thread of conversation
- particularly in threads where an OP has asked for suggestions

I think this might have happened in this case (even though a lot of this interesting thread has gone off topic)

- sd

[Julian]

If we weren't in such a messed up world at the moment my ultimate recommendation to Steve would be to get a shortlist of stuff and go into a few shops to listen to it
- Julian

Even that may not be successful. Many years ago, I had a pair of KEFs that I thought were great. One of my mates was interested in them so I took them round to his house, along with a few of my LPs. They were rubbish, when playing music I played at home, even though his room was not disimilar to mine in size and furnishings. Little bass and a generally 'lifeless' sound. Repositioning the speakers in the room didn't help.

--kiloran

I wouldn't disagree with that although having a listen first I would think in most cases at least reduces the possibility of disappointment although as you point out does not avoid the possibility entirely. Interesting to see your phrase "little bass and generally 'lifeless' sound" because that sums up perfectly two of the attributes I was putting on the table namely bass response and dynamics.

- Julian

[Julian]

Hi Howard

Ultimately though your analogy about wine is apposite. There is no absolute metric of perceived audio quality in the same way that there is no absolute metric of an enjoyable wine. Price is certainly not a metric in either case neither is prestige brand. In the same way that someone might prefer a mid price wine to an eye-wateringly expensive wine because the less expensive wine is more to their personal tastes. Sadly the same is true of audio. One person might rave about how "neutral" a system is in that it accurately plays exactly the frequencies on the recording whereas another person might find such a system clinical and sterile and simply not much fun to listen to (and if I was to characterise myself I would say I'm that later person, I've gone the path of supposedly very accomplished neutral "reproduce the underlying recording exactly as intended" components and found them sterile and unenjoyable). On the other hand someone might love a system because it's got a powerful bass response whereas another person might consider the bass on that system overblown and obscuring stuff in the midrange such as vocals.

Sadly with personal taste involved in audio systems there is no one system that anyone here can recommend that we can be sure would suit Steve's personal tastes. If we weren't in such a messed up world at the moment my ultimate recommendation to Steve would be to get a shortlist of stuff and go into a few shops to listen to it (Richer Sounds has a pretty decent range of stuff from fairly high end (well above £1,000) down to sub £300 mini systems) but sadly with us about to enter lockdown that isn't really an option at the moment so, unless he is willing to wait until non-essential retail opens up again, anything he buys is going to be something of a risk despite all our well-meant recommendations. I suppose he can always send stuff back and try again under the 14 day return policy but that's a real hassle if it takes him 2 or 3 goes to end up with something that he personally finds satisfying.

- Julian

Dear Julian

You are right.

And your comment about listening to a system before buying is very helpful advice.

However, you have tempted me to be pretentious.

If you are prepared to spend, then there are even better quality sounds than the best system.

A box at Covent Garden to listen to “La Traviata”, a trip to Berlin to hear the Berlin Philharmonic conducted by Simon Rattle playing Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony at the concert to celebrate the 25th Anniversary of the wall coming down, a seat in the stalls at La Scala Milan for “Tosca”.

Attending a wonderful concert by Anoushka Shankar and suddenly realising that the guy in the seat in front of us who is enthusiastically applauding her sitar playing is Sting.

I could go on …. and I'm sure there are other posters who have had similar pleasure from rock concerts.

They are happy reflections for me whilst I listen to CDs played by my modest Bose system - I’m sure I’m missing the top notes now. But the memories are the highest fidelity of all.

regards

Howard

Dear Howard,

This is true re nothing like the real thing although I note your reference to Simon Rattle. Wasn't it him that went on record a few years ago saying that there were no truly world-call concert halls in the UK in terms of acoustics? I think it was at about the time when he was planning to leave Berlin. I seem to remember that it caused a bit of a fuss at the time and the then-government (Cameron/Osbourne?) sort of suggested that money would be allocated to building a new concert hall but it never happened?

Anyway, sorry for a bit off topic and thank you for the civilized discussions regarding our initially differing opinions ultimately arriving I think on agreement on the bigger picture. Thank you also for inspiring me to dig out some of my classical CDs and re-acquaint myself with that whole universe of music.

Steve - do let us know how you get on with whatever you choose and where you end up with streaming. It will be interesting to hear where you end up given your starting point in one of your posts on page 1 - "I'm not interested in streaming, Bluetooth etc and certainly not into telling Alexa what to play! Knowing my luck, she'd probably argue with me! ". That's not a criticism by the way, I started from a point of what possibly could be classified as distain for streaming but over a few years have become an avid fan.

- Julian

P.S. If you want to see what can go wrong with Alexa this is worth watching all 2 minutes until the punch line at the end. Warning for those that are offended by such things, there's a lot of swearing in this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcjsE-qJDfw