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Ripping & playing old DVDs

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Julian
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Ripping & playing old DVDs

#153656

Postby Julian » July 20th, 2018, 12:28 pm

I want to get rid of my DVD player and have a few (fewer than 10) old DVDs that I don't want to lose access to. I'd like to get them stored on a hard drive and be able to play them just like on a DVD player, i.e. launching into the DVD menu since some of them have alternative commentary soundtracks on them and extra documentaries, the-making-of features.

I already use Kodi and am told that Kodi plays ISO files of DVDs beautifully including the full menu experience so I'm thinking the way to do this is to rip each of my DVDs to a single ISO file using ripping software on my Windows 10 PC and then put the ISOs onto my Kodi system. My three questions are...

1 - Is this the best idea? I also have Plex on my NVidia Shield TV so maybe that would be another option but remember that I do want the full DVD menu functionality.

2 - Has anyone here successfully played DVDs with full menu functionality from a ripped ISO file using Kodi?

3 - What DVD ripping software would people recommend for Windows 10? Free would be best given I only have fewer than 10 rips to do. All the DVDs were commercially purchased and are DVDs rather than Blu-Rays. I assume they have DRM on them although it will be over a decade old DRM, maybe even over 2 decades old but whatever DVD ripper I use will need to be able to rip whatever was the standard for commercial UK-sold retail DVDs at the time.

I don't think I'm breaching any laws here now am I? I vaguely remember that it is now OK to take copies of legally purchased CDs and DVDs as backups for personal use.

- Julian

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Re: Ripping & playing old DVDs

#153680

Postby didds » July 20th, 2018, 1:53 pm

IANAL.

TBH I doubt very much that youd have any issues whatsoever playing a ripped DVD that you own(ed).

For 100% cover keep the DVD somewhere (loft?) but nobody that would actually care will find out, and if they did, i honestly can;t see that they'd chase a single person watching it solely themself - its not as if you are sticking it on P2P and distributing it globally.

didds

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Re: Ripping & playing old DVDs

#153704

Postby Julian » July 20th, 2018, 2:50 pm

didds wrote:IANAL.

TBH I doubt very much that youd have any issues whatsoever playing a ripped DVD that you own(ed).

For 100% cover keep the DVD somewhere (loft?) but nobody that would actually care will find out, and if they did, i honestly can;t see that they'd chase a single person watching it solely themself - its not as if you are sticking it on P2P and distributing it globally.

didds

I agree, and I do have a vague memory of news reports maybe 5 years ago about the EU amending some law to make what you mention explicitly legal since, unbeknownst to many people, I think that before that it was technically illegal to rip one's own content because the previous laws had been drafted before mp3s etc existed.

I certainly flouted that old law for decades with my CDs but, as you suggest for DVDs, to this day I still keep all my original CDs some of which date back to the mid 1980s and, despite the manufacturers' claims for the resilience and durability of CDs when they were launched, many of my oldest ones are probably unplayable now. It's a very low priority item on my to-do list to go through those 700-ish CDs and take them all out of their jewel cases so that I only keep the CDs themselves plus the inserts to free up some cupboard space. Maybe next year.

- Julian

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Re: Ripping & playing old DVDs

#153720

Postby Breelander » July 20th, 2018, 3:17 pm

Julian wrote:3 - What DVD ripping software would people recommend for Windows 10? Free would be best given I only have fewer than 10 rips to do. All the DVDs were commercially purchased and are DVDs rather than Blu-Rays. I assume they have DRM on them although it will be over a decade old DRM, maybe even over 2 decades old but whatever DVD ripper I use will need to be able to rip whatever was the standard for commercial UK-sold retail DVDs at the time.


'Ripping' is the wrong term for what you want to do. Ripping means extracting the video track(s) (or audio from a CD) to a new file in a new format. That process would have to circumvent the DRM to read the tracks.

What you propose to do is just to make an exact block-for-block copy of a disk to an ISO - not the same thing at all. It's just 'data', doesn't matter what the data is (could be a software install DVD, for example). DRM only comes into play if you are trying to decode the video along the way. There is one data flag on the DVD that could play a part, there's a copyright flag in the DVD header. Some software will respect that flag and not let you make an ISO of a copyrighted disk.

I have a bundled 'disk-to-ISO' tool, part of the OEM 'bloatware' pre-installed on the PC. That does refuse to copy a copyrighted disk, but so far I've only ever used it to make backup ISOs of software install disks. Those aren't generally copyrighted, no need as you'd need the key to install anyway.

This Lifewire article suggests 'BurnAware Free' as a good tool...
https://www.lifewire.com/how-to-create- ... cd-2625180
...I've downloaded it and am currently testing it in Windows 10 on my most recently purchased commercial video DVD. It's currently 30 minutes in showing an estimated 1 hour 30 mins left to completion.

NB: the 'BurnAware Free' install finishes by offering a 'free' install of Avast. Make sure you decline the offer!

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Re: Ripping & playing old DVDs

#153731

Postby Infrasonic » July 20th, 2018, 3:36 pm

Julian wrote:
didds wrote:IANAL.

TBH I doubt very much that youd have any issues whatsoever playing a ripped DVD that you own(ed).

For 100% cover keep the DVD somewhere (loft?) but nobody that would actually care will find out, and if they did, i honestly can;t see that they'd chase a single person watching it solely themself - its not as if you are sticking it on P2P and distributing it globally.

didds

I agree, and I do have a vague memory of news reports maybe 5 years ago about the EU amending some law to make what you mention explicitly legal since, unbeknownst to many people, I think that before that it was technically illegal to rip one's own content because the previous laws had been drafted before mp3s etc existed.

I certainly flouted that old law for decades with my CDs but, as you suggest for DVDs, to this day I still keep all my original CDs some of which date back to the mid 1980s and, despite the manufacturers' claims for the resilience and durability of CDs when they were launched, many of my oldest ones are probably unplayable now. It's a very low priority item on my to-do list to go through those 700-ish CDs and take them all out of their jewel cases so that I only keep the CDs themselves plus the inserts to free up some cupboard space. Maybe next year.

- Julian


Home taping was the catalyst for those old copyright laws. The record store chain I worked for in the early 80's even went to the lengths of having the record heads removed from all the tape decks in all stores, as a sop to the record labels and distributors, such was their paranoia...

For archiving M-discs are well regarded if you want removable media...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-DISC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pekgrP-v5O0
M-Disc is a more robust form of writable DVD and Blu-Ray media for making longer-lasting archives and backups. Here I look at M-Disc hardware, test compatitbility, and perform an intensive data retention test to see if M-Discs really do last longer than traditional optical media.


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Re: Ripping & playing old DVDs

#153751

Postby torata » July 20th, 2018, 3:59 pm

Julian wrote:I want to get rid of my DVD player and have a few (fewer than 10) old DVDs that I don't want to lose access to. I'd like to get them stored on a hard drive and be able to play them just like on a DVD player, i.e. launching into the DVD menu since some of them have alternative commentary soundtracks on them and extra documentaries, the-making-of features.

- Julian


My experience:

Answering specifically, I use "handbrake" to 'rip' my (legally bought) DVDs to a hard drive. It requires an additional, freely available, dll to rip protected (as most are) dvds correctly. Whether handbrake would pick up alternative commentaries I don't know.

Handbrake rips things into m4v files so it doesn't work exactly as the DVD. If you want exact DVD functionalty, then just copy and paste all dvd files from dvd drive to hard drive. Apart from the increased space compared to m4v, then you have to work out 'do I want the audio_TS or video_TS folder and what file within them to start the DVD, and have I got a decent player that can hadle this DVD functionality?' I found VLC worked OK, and generally only needed to be directed to the folder holding audio_TS and video_TS and was able to handle the rest. But it wasn't as smooth as a DVD player.

HTH

torata

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Re: Ripping & playing old DVDs

#153765

Postby Breelander » July 20th, 2018, 4:30 pm

torata wrote:Answering specifically, I use "handbrake" to 'rip' my (legally bought) DVDs to a hard drive. It requires an additional, freely available, dll to rip protected (as most are) dvds correctly. Whether handbrake would pick up alternative commentaries I don't know.


I use Handbrake too (purely for copying my own DVDs, as you say). It's useful it you just want a copy of the film itself you can play on a PC or cast to a TV.

Yes, it can be set up to copy any or all alternative audio tracks. In addition, it can burn subtitles into the video. This is necessary for some films, particularly where an occasional subtitle is used for a snatch of foreign language in a predominantly English film. Sometimes, rather than having a subtitle in the video itself, the separate subtitle track provides these. These are called 'forced subtitles' as they will be displayed even if you have subtitles turned off in your DVD player.

But Julian wants an ISO of the original DVD so it can be played as if it were a physical disk, complete with all menus and extras.

I found VLC worked OK, and generally only needed to be directed to the folder holding audio_TS and video_TS and was able to handle the rest. But it wasn't as smooth as a DVD player.


You can point VLC at an ISO file and it will play that as if it's a physical DVD.

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Re: Ripping & playing old DVDs

#153818

Postby Itsallaguess » July 20th, 2018, 8:01 pm

I tend to use MakeMKV for most of my DVD and Blu-Ray rips -

https://tinyurl.com/y9n9qzq4 (download page)

https://tinyurl.com/j8zwpra (current beta key)

It's just about the simplest method I've ever used to rip my film disks into digital media. Single-click stuff really.

It doesn't do menu-structures, but will compile DVD-extras if asked to, and will also encode multiple languages and commentary-tracks into a single video file, so it does just about everything I want in a neat and more importantly free package.

Just about anything nowadays will play MKV files, including the majority of modern SMART TV's. My film library is available to any compatible device via my home network.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Ripping & playing old DVDs

#153837

Postby Breelander » July 20th, 2018, 10:01 pm

Breelander wrote:This Lifewire article suggests 'BurnAware Free' as a good tool...
...I've downloaded it and am currently testing it in Windows 10...



Didn't work. I've tested with two DVDs to make sure. Although it created the ISO successfully, and the ISO could be mounted as a virtual DVD, neither the ISO or the mounted drive could be played in VLC or the Microsoft DVD Player. It may be that if the ISO were then burned to a disk that disk would be playable but that's not what Julian was asking for.

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Re: Ripping & playing old DVDs

#153840

Postby Breelander » July 20th, 2018, 10:47 pm

Breelander wrote:...'BurnAware Free'...
Didn't work. I've tested with two DVDs to make sure. ...neither the ISO or the mounted drive could be played in VLC or the Microsoft DVD Player...


So I tried another one, ImgBurn.
https://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/imgburn.html
(beware, some other sources to download ImgBurn may include the OpenCandy 'malware'. MajorGeeks claims to be clean.)

This one actually warns you the DVD is copy protected, and says...
If you go ahead and try to create an image anyway, don't blame me if it fails or the image doesn't work!


However, it made a playable ISO from one of the DVDs that failed with BurnAware.

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Re: Ripping & playing old DVDs

#153843

Postby fisher » July 20th, 2018, 11:27 pm

For DVD "ripping" to ISO I have always used DVD Decrypter (http://www.dvddecrypter.org.uk/). It hasn't been updated since 2005 but works on most discs I have. It does remove some of the DRM before creating the ISO. It has various modes and does a lot more, but it will create a DVD ISO. Whether it is playable by your chosen playback software I don't know, but I've never had a problem with the ISO's it creates.

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Re: Ripping & playing old DVDs

#153846

Postby Breelander » July 20th, 2018, 11:43 pm

fisher wrote:...DVD Decrypter... It hasn't been updated since 2005...


There's a good reason for that ;)

ImgBurn is an optical disc authoring software created by Lightning UK, the author of DVD Decrypter, after he was forced to stop development of DVD Decrypter in response to a cease and desist order from Macrovision.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ImgBurn#History

It appears ImgBurn has inherited some of its DNA...

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Re: Ripping & playing old DVDs

#153880

Postby Julian » July 21st, 2018, 9:29 am

Wow. Many thanks everyone, especially Breelander for doing those tests. It looks as if ImgBurn (with due care re offers of malware) is the one to play with.

As so often happens with LemonFool questions, other interesting and useful stuff came out of the conversation as well, for instance Torata bringing up VLC which Breelander subsequently said can also be pointed at a DVD ISO. When you (Breelander) say that VLC "will play that as if it's a physical DVD" does that imply it also handles the menus like a DVD player? My NVidia Shield is not running Kodi just as often as it is when I'm using stuff like Netflix or Amazon Prime and I see that VLC is available on the Google Play Store and compatible with my Shield so that would be just as convenient as doing it via Kodi I think, maybe more convenient, but good to have the second option either way.

Thanks also for all the other replies. I might end up deciding that invoking things via the menus is just too 20th century so the info on actual ripping as opposed to copying images (thanks yet again to Breelander for the correction there) might well end up as useful in the future.

- Julian

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Re: Ripping & playing old DVDs

#153883

Postby Julian » July 21st, 2018, 9:43 am

Itsallaguess wrote:I tend to use MakeMKV for most of my DVD and Blu-Ray rips -
...
It doesn't do menu-structures, but will compile DVD-extras if asked to, and will also encode multiple languages and commentary-tracks into a single video file, so it does just about everything I want in a neat and more importantly free package.
...

Thanks itsallaguess.

If one encodes "multiple languages and commentary-tracks into a single video file" how does that behave on playback? I'm guessing that it varies from player to player but I'm trying to get some idea. I know that playback on Kodi has the option to select subtitles in various languages depending on what info is embedded in the files of course. Do things like VLC also have a soundtrack option such that, if the encoded video file has extra commentary tracks in it, one would also see soundtrack options such as maybe "English", "French", "Director's Commentary", "<Lead-Actor's> Commentary" etc? If yes then I might take one of my more complicated DVDs and try it both ways, ISO image and what you suggest, since I'm now not sure which setup I might find more convenient.

- Julian

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Re: Ripping & playing old DVDs

#153884

Postby Itsallaguess » July 21st, 2018, 9:59 am

Julian wrote:
If one encodes "multiple languages and commentary-tracks into a single video file" how does that behave on playback?

I'm guessing that it varies from player to player but I'm trying to get some idea. I know that playback on Kodi has the option to select subtitles in various languages depending on what info is embedded in the files of course.

Do things like VLC also have a soundtrack option such that, if the encoded video file has extra commentary tracks in it, one would also see soundtrack options such as maybe "English", "French", "Director's Commentary", "<Lead-Actor's> Commentary" etc?

If yes then I might take one of my more complicated DVDs and try it both ways, ISO image and what you suggest, since I'm now not sure which setup I might find more convenient.


Hi Julian,

Yes, depending on the playing mechanism, then with MKV files with multiple audio-tracks, one of them will be digitally marked as the 'default' track, but then you're also normally able to manually select a different one if you want to listen to that one instead.

Certainly this is the case with all the media players I've used in Windows and Android, and my LG SMART TV has native MKV playback with audio-track selection too, so this suits me on the very odd occasion that I want to listen to something else other than the default track.

There's tools available too, such as MKVmerge, where you can change the default audio tracks of existing multi-track MKV files, or delete them completely, so the MKV format is flexible enough for just about all my media usage, especially given the great MakeMKV tool that can generate them from both DVD and Blu-Ray disk formats.

I should add that the audio-tracks aren't as clearly identified as you'd perhaps want. It may not be clear that English Track 2 might be the Commentary track, but certainly in the multi-track MKV files that I tend to generate and keep, then the files only usually have the main track, and if there's an additional one on any of them, then it's almost certainly the directors-commentary track anyway, so even this isn't a problem for me, but just something I thought I should mention if it's very important to you.

I think it's still probably worth a go on one of your disks though, given that the MakeMKV tool is free, just to see how useful it might be. The conversion time is surprisingly quick, and certainly much quick than many of the Handbrake (and similar..) tools that I've used in the past.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Ripping & playing old DVDs

#153894

Postby Julian » July 21st, 2018, 10:26 am

Itsallaguess wrote:...
I should add that the audio-tracks aren't clearly identified as you'd perhaps want, it may not be clear that English Track 2 might be the Commentary track, but certainly in the multi-track MKV files that I tend to generate and keep, then the files only usually have the main track, and if there's an additional on then it's almost certainly the directors-commentary track, so even this isn't a problem for me, but just something I thought I should mention if it's very important to you.
...


Hi Itsallaguess,

Thanks again. The point you mentioned above had definitely occurred to me. Presumably the soundtrack name must either be taken from some sort of title field within the audio track file or might it be the file name of the stand-alone audio files? I haven't looked at it yet but presumably MakeMKV is taking input files from the audio_TS and video_TS folders so if it was as simple as the filename of the appropriate audio file then maybe one could change it by renaming the files (e.g. "English Track 2" to "Director Commentary") before doing the encoding. If it's a string embedded in the audio file itself then all might not yet be lost. An editor that could handle the file size and wouldn't mangle binary data (Emacs? It's been a while since I used it) might allow one to load the audio file, search for "English Track 2" (assuming its ASCI encoded and I can't see why it wouldn't be) and then edit that in situ. One might even be able to change the label length by working out if the string was stored with a trailing delimiter or a preceding character count and editing accordingly. Even if the label length can't be altered one could still create some meaningful abbreviation which would be better than something like "English Track 2" or pad with spaces to make up length for shorter titles. Any embedded checksum for the entire file would mess things up but that would become apparent pretty quickly.

- Julian

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Re: Ripping & playing old DVDs

#153897

Postby Itsallaguess » July 21st, 2018, 10:31 am

Julian wrote:
Presumably the soundtrack name must either be taken from some sort of title field within the audio track file or might it be the file name of the stand-alone audio files? I haven't looked at it yet but presumably MakeMKV is taking input files from the audio_TS and video_TS folders so if it was as simple as the filename of the appropriate audio file then maybe one could change it by renaming the files (e.g. "English Track 2" to "Director Commentary") before doing the encoding.


Hi Julian,

I've just had a quick Google, as this isn't something that I've looked into before, and it looks like you're able to rename the audio-tracks once the MKV file has been created -

https://gbatemp.net/threads/changing-au ... es.269963/

The above mentions MKVToolNix, but the facility might also be in the MKVMerge tool I've used in the past, but anyway, certainly something to have a go of if this is important to you, and the above link is encouraging that it's at least possible.

Of course I'd be interested in your feedback if you do look into this side of things.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Ripping & playing old DVDs

#153952

Postby Breelander » July 21st, 2018, 1:48 pm

Julian wrote:When you (Breelander) say that VLC "will play that as if it's a physical DVD" does that imply it also handles the menus like a DVD player?


Did you ever have Windows 7? Did you ever use the Windows Media Player to play a physical DVD? If you did, it would have had the full menus and features available, just like a dedicated DVD player. For Windows 10, media features like this were removed (remember the Media Centre?) allegedly to save on the costs of licencing.

VLC was what I installed to be able to continue playing physical DVDs. Unlike Microsoft's old Media Player it can play an ISO file as if it were a physical DVD. All the menu functions you'd expect are there.

Thanks also for all the other replies. I might end up deciding that invoking things via the menus is just too 20th century so the info on actual ripping as opposed to copying images (thanks yet again to Breelander for the correction there) might well end up as useful in the future.


TBH, these days when I buy a DVD the first thing I do is rip it and use that copy of the main feature to cast to my TV. I only play the actual DVD if I want to see the extras. Handbrake is the most often recommended tool for this. https://handbrake.fr/ As installed, it cannot rip CSS encrypted DVDs. Torata mentioned a .dll that will give it the ability to do so. That is libdvdcss-2.dll which you just copy into the C:\Programs\Handbrake folder so it can find and use it. It is part of the Videolan open source project which produced VLC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libdvdcss
https://download.videolan.org/libdvdcss/1.2.12/

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Re: Ripping & playing old DVDs

#160489

Postby Julian » August 18th, 2018, 6:27 pm

Thanks to everyone who helped me on this. I finally got round to looking at my AV setup so am updating this thread with my results so far.

Firstly, a very belated answer to Breelander's question from a month ago! Yes, I did use Windows 7 but I never really used Media Player for anything other than music files.

ImgBurn didn't seem to work for me. It threw up a gazillion errors about unreadable sectors, time indices seeming to go backwards so frames dropped, etc. I think maybe it didn't like the DRM on the DVD that I tried. I did then install VLC to check that the DVD itself wasn't corrupt (I've already disconnected my DVD player so it was easier to test it via my PC). VLC played the DVD just fine with the menus working as expected. Ultimately though I decided to get with the 21st century and break the connection with the physical media and installed Handbrake plus libdvdcss-2.dll (for the DRM) to rip stuff to individual playable files and it all works pretty well with one optimisation on multiple audio tracks still to do if possible.

For stuff with voice-over commentaries I used Handbrake to add all the available audio soundtracks but that's still a work in progress to find the perfect solution. What I've done so far is to rip just one chapter (to keep the rip time short) and then watch/listen to it selecting the first/second/third English audio channels in turn and listening to each one for long enough to work out what was what. I then delete the test chapter and go back and re-rip but this time using Handbrake's facility to give a "Track Name" to each audio track such as "Default", "Director Commentary" etc. I thought this was working because when I play it back on my PC using VLC I can then see the meaningful names on the audio tracks under audio selection but trying it just now on Plex or on Kodi on my nVidia Shield it reverts to calling them all "English" in the audio selection dialogues. I do see that it is possible to set up Kodi to use an external player such as VLC (https://betanews.com/2017/06/16/how-to- ... ia-player/) so I think that's my next step to see if the VLC client on Android sees the meaningful names in the same way as the PC client does.

- Julian

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Re: Ripping & playing old DVDs

#160496

Postby Breelander » August 18th, 2018, 8:04 pm

Julian wrote:I finally got round to looking at my AV setup so am updating this thread with my results so far...


Thanks for the update. Yes, Handbrake looks the way to go, seems you are making good progress with it.


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