Estate IT set up

[Novoiceleft]

In a previous post, I posed at IT question about our residential estate.

Well life has moved on, and now it is time for a redesign of the estate's IT set up.

What would be the best way to build the IT set up for a our estate? In no particular order, the parameters are below

- There are about 30 residents with a range of devices - phone, ipads, desktops etc.
- Every resident has an email address.
- About 2 properties change hands every year.
- Residents change their Broadband and Email providers
- Many have low-level and 'old-fashioned" IT skills. (i.e. WHatsApp is not an option)"
- The estate is managed by a management company. There are 4 Directors who are residents (we are self managed).
- The management company is legally required to keep records of accounts, documents, files, communications etc.
- There is a small office, with a computer, printer, router and filing cabinets
- SHould the Directors be given their own Management Cmpany email accounts for tracking/archive purposes?
- The Estate needs to send out emails of Meeting agendas, minutes and other list.
- There are overlapping email groups eg residents, shareholders, directors, suppliers
- Most mailings are outwards from the Directors, but it would be good if any resident could also use the same email groups and trust they are up to date
- In the past, email attachments have caused problems,with emails going to spam etc because of a multitude of set-ups at individual level
- There is quite a complex telecoms set-up across the estate for Entry Gates, multiple entrance foyer consoles, lift emergency telephones

All ideas welcome

NoVoice

[stacker512]

- The Estate needs to send out emails of Meeting agendas, minutes and other list.
- There are overlapping email groups eg residents, shareholders, directors, suppliers
- Most mailings are outwards from the Directors, but it would be good if any resident could also use the same email groups and trust they are up to date
- In the past, email attachments have caused problems,with emails going to spam etc because of a multitude of set-ups at individual level

What about mailman? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Mailman

Teach everyone to use Linux

- The management company is legally required to keep records of accounts, documents, files, communications etc.

I'm playing with paperless-ngx for my own documents storage system. Maybe that helps?

[mc2fool]

As I mentioned in the other thread, look into Google Groups.

"Google Group Email refers to the email address associated with a Google Group. When you create a group, you assign it a unique email address. Any email sent to this address will be distributed to all the group members, assuming the group settings allow for it. This makes it easy for members to communicate with the entire group through a single email address, whether that’s for discussions, announcements, or any other purpose.

For example, if you create a Google Group called “BookClub”, it might have an email address like “bookclub@googlegroups.com”. Sending an email to this address would distribute the message to all members of the BookClub group" https://hiverhq.com/blog/google-groups-email

What's more, any emails going through the group automatically get saved in a threaded manner. You can set up multiple groups, e.g. residents, shareholders, directors, etc. Make them private groups and invite the relevant folks to be members of each at their existing email accounts. They do not need google accounts to receive from or send messages to the group(s). (They only do if they want to log in and look at the saved messages.)

[Infrasonic]

...- There is quite a complex telecoms set-up across the estate for Entry Gates, multiple entrance foyer consoles, lift emergency telephones

All ideas welcome

NoVoice

If it all currently works as intended then leave it alone...

We had an intermittent analogue audio visual door entry system that was swapped out for an all singing and dancing audio only one a few years back.
The new system has a round robin ringing option for up to three telephone numbers per flat with code push options to open the main front and internal block doors.

There were teething troubles, eventually it worked most of the time and then there have been further issues as maintenance engineers haven't done the job properly, have wiped memory stores requiring manual number restores et al. Blocks with additional communal doors constantly have issues with the automation not working and have to go and manually open doors for couriers/food delivery etc - somewhat negating the whole system...

As for the rest of the post I'd repeat what I said initially on the other one - get your own domain for the management company and host it with something like a lower end MS365 business tier that will integrate all the email and office docs into one package that most other businesses/contractors can interact with.

You could hire an IT consultant to set everything up initially including record keeping and 3-2-1 onsite/offsite backups to whatever data compliance standards you will need and then retain them for emergency cover whilst you and the directors run it DIY on a daily basis thereafter.

I'd suggest getting an onsite RAID 5/6 NAS and a flatbed scanner for the office. Maybe set up a dedicated website with password access as well so all emailed documentation can be duplicated there to avoid any email delivery issues keeping leaseholders/residents in the dark.

As I put in my last post we ended up with a hard copy monthly newsletter being sent out to all 92 flats - even then people bin them without reading or making note of important date dependent info and then start asking for the new bin codes etc....

[Novoiceleft]

Thanks everyone.

It is most definitely not working at the moment. The mail groups are run in Mailman. When a mailing is sent, seems like only about 50% of residents receive the email due to firewalls etc. We will stop using that.

Like the idea of a hosted domain for files, accounts, board minutes etc.

Google Groups sounds interesting. I looked at the link. Are those groups dynamic? i.e. if someone replied to an old email containing the Google Group name, but the membership had since changed, will the change be reflected? Is there a MS equivalent of Google Groups?

NoVoice

[mc2fool]

Thanks everyone.

It is most definitely not working at the moment. The mail groups are run in Mailman. When a mailing is sent, seems like only about 50% of residents receive the email due to firewalls etc. We will stop using that.

Like the idea of a hosted domain for files, accounts, board minutes etc.

Google Groups sounds interesting. I looked at the link. Are those groups dynamic? i.e. if someone replied to an old email containing the Google Group name, but the membership had since changed, will the change be reflected? Is there a MS equivalent of Google Groups?

NoVoice

When you send to the group address the message gets sent on to the current members of the group. Whether it's a totally new message, a reply to an old one, or a reply to a very old one is irrelevant. As the emails will be sent out by Google's servers, which work hard to do all the "right" things, the blacklisting problems will pretty much disappear.

IIRC it's pretty easy to set one up and so I suggest you just try doing so, with a couple of friendly and willing guinea pigs (or just yourself a couple of times if you have more than one email account) and have a play with it.

For files, accounts, board minutes etc (all being files of course ), not to sound like a Google salesman, but there's a lot of advantages in using a shared Google Drive, not least of all deleted file recovery and file versioning (so, after several edits to a file over a few days if you decide it's now just too messed up you can roll back to a version before all those edits). You can tie shared folders to a Group. https://support.google.com/drive/answer ... fic-people

If having your own domain is important you can add a custom domain name to it. https://www.quora.com/How-do-you-add-a- ... ogle-Drive

Re MS offerings: well the full fat job is Teams, but I don't know if they have any lighter, and free, version. (The Google stuff is free, unless you want more than 15GB).

[Novoiceleft]

Even though you are not a Google salesman, it is sounding quite convincing

I do use Google Drive personally, so I have a small knowledge. I'm not a tekky, but I am aware that these IT giants like MS and Google tend to be parochial.

So if I we wanted (I say "we" but, frankly, it will end up being "me" - the others CBA) to set up a Google Drive in the name of the Management Company, how does that work? And then, within that, will I be able to build Google groups which contain multiple forms of email addresses: outlook, icloud, btinternet etc

It could never work if everyone on the estate had to set up a Google account.

I also assume that when we do the mailings we could send links, not attachments? Its the attachments that are killing the mailings.

NoVoice

[Alaric]

- Many have low-level and 'old-fashioned" IT skills. (i.e. WHatsApp is not an option)"

WhatsApp can be used on a PC. Perhaps it needs a mobile phone number to set it up in the first place. It might be worth setting up for those confident in using it.

[Novoiceleft]

Sorry mc2fool. Just seen your answer on domain name.

Doh. Ignore that question from me.

Novoice

[mc2fool]

So if I we wanted (I say "we" but, frankly, it will end up being "me" - the others CBA) to set up a Google Drive in the name of the Management Company, how does that work? And then, within that, will I be able to build Google groups which contain multiple forms of email addresses: outlook, icloud, btinternet etc

It could never work if everyone on the estate had to set up a Google account.

I also assume that when we do the mailings we could send links, not attachments? Its the attachments that are killing the mailings.

Ok, I've not actually used shared folders on google drive, so I'm just going by my understanding, some of which is in my previous links.

In regards to everyone needing a Google a/c or not: as I said previously, for sending to and receiving from the Group folks don't need Google a/cs. For accessing the saved email archive they do (but do note, if you didn't know already, that you can create a google account with any email address. E.g. you can create a google account as myname123@hotmail.com. It will have it's own password though. https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/27441)

For shared folders on google drive, clearly the folks that will manipulate the contents (create/upload files, rename, delete, etc), will need google accounts. For reading files in shared folders AIUI it depends on what level of privacy you want. If you only want your residents to be able to read them then they'll need accounts, but if you are happy for anyone on the internet to be able to read them then they don't. And there is a third option which is that they can only be read by folks via a link that you send them. See my previous link on sharing folders and this link on sharing files. https://support.google.com/drive/answer/2494822

[Infrasonic]

For the purposes of keeping it as simple as possible you're better off going with Microsoft Office formats rather than faffing with Google or Libre Office et al. Yes they can both do .doc formats or you could rationalise to open document format for your entire documents ecosystem but it's just one more compatibility issue to worry about, and in the absence of anyone with good IT skills it will be more work.

I've run dedicated accounts like my mothers EPA affairs with shares in the past with documents auto-sync cloud mirrored between OneDrive / Google Drive and Dropbox and it's a PITA to maintain.

The vast majority of people (sole traders/SME's) who accessed those documents on a shared read only basis went with the OneDrive option. The mirrors were more of a backup redundancy / firewall option to be belt and braces in case of any ransomware issues for my peace of mind.

For any of the leaseholders/tenants with a free MS365 account (which you get with any free Outlook.com or Hotmail address) they can view MS Office attachment links online as a preview, no need to download and open offline, so no necessity for a paid version of Office - either MS365 or MS Office (standalone desktop).
https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/microso ... or-the-web

So for say leaseholders who need financial management information with password protected spreadsheets and word documents they can just get themselves a dedicated free MS address and have access to all the MS365 free functionality online.


The directors could have access to the paid MS365 account (with offline Office app capability) set up for the management company.

That way you'd be emailing within the MS ecosystem and should have far less non delivery issues whether using attachments or links to OneDrive document shares. Successful email delivery these days is a rabbit hole in itself, minimising the pinch points is highly recommended.

Paid MS365 OneDrive also has an encrypted 'vault' option so management documents can be uploaded to that as an online secure backup to any onsite offline backups (NAS et al).
Commercial NAS options like the Synology plus ranges can have offsite cloud backups to OD/GD/DB etc. enabled as an automated scheduled feature.

[mc2fool]

For any of the leaseholders/tenants with a free MS365 account (which you get with any free Outlook.com or Hotmail address) they can view MS Office attachment links online as a preview, no need to download and open offline, so no necessity for a paid version of Office - either MS365 or MS Office (standalone desktop).
https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/microso ... or-the-web

So for say leaseholders who need financial management information with password protected spreadsheets and word documents they can just get themselves a dedicated free MS address and have access to all the MS365 free functionality online.

I believe part of NoVoice's criteria is that most of his audience (the "read-only" majority) not be required to sign up to any accounts, free or not.

And for the read-only audience by far the most universal format to distribute information in is PDF, anyway.

[Infrasonic]

For any of the leaseholders/tenants with a free MS365 account (which you get with any free Outlook.com or Hotmail address) they can view MS Office attachment links online as a preview, no need to download and open offline, so no necessity for a paid version of Office - either MS365 or MS Office (standalone desktop).
https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/microso ... or-the-web

So for say leaseholders who need financial management information with password protected spreadsheets and word documents they can just get themselves a dedicated free MS address and have access to all the MS365 free functionality online.

I believe part of NoVoice's criteria is that most of his audience (the "read-only" majority) not be required to sign up to any accounts, free or not.

And for the read-only audience by far the most universal format to distribute information in is PDF, anyway.

PDF is a fair point, it is more universal. Free DocuSign can be also used for any signatures etc.

There's nothing to stop the management company reserving 30 free ****mydevlopment(@)outlook.com addresses and then posting out the log in details. People are free to opt in or not then, but with the caveat that the management don't guarantee email delivery if they choose to only use their current third party webmail account.
Or do a website which asks for permission to do desktop alerts (a user option in most browsers).
Or a paper newsletter - like I have at my development.

[stacker512]

For files, accounts, board minutes etc (all being files of course ), not to sound like a Google salesman, but there's a lot of advantages in using a shared Google Drive, not least of all deleted file recovery and file versioning (so, after several edits to a file over a few days if you decide it's now just too messed up you can roll back to a version before all those edits). You can tie shared folders to a Group. https://support.google.com/drive/answer ... fic-people

Would be very careful with Google Drive, especially on the free plan. There were some instances recently of Google messing up and a bunch of people lost their files.

It's ok if it's individuals that have backups, but for this housing estate, you may need something more reliable.

[mc2fool]

For files, accounts, board minutes etc (all being files of course ), not to sound like a Google salesman, but there's a lot of advantages in using a shared Google Drive, not least of all deleted file recovery and file versioning (so, after several edits to a file over a few days if you decide it's now just too messed up you can roll back to a version before all those edits). You can tie shared folders to a Group. https://support.google.com/drive/answer ... fic-people

Would be very careful with Google Drive, especially on the free plan. There were some instances recently of Google messing up and a bunch of people lost their files.

It's ok if it's individuals that have backups, but for this housing estate, you may need something more reliable.

I can't imagine that that could have been anything other than a transient glitch, but in any case, having backups is always a very good idea!

[Infrasonic]

...It's ok if it's individuals that have backups, but for this housing estate, you may need something more reliable.

Agreed - an onsite NAS (with cloud backup capability) in the office, as I've already suggested upthread...

[Infrasonic]

The Google Drive data loss issue is covered here - https://support.google.com/drive/thread ... 1023222-EU

Moderator Message:
Just in case anyone wishes to discuss this specific (Google Drive) issue in more depth, can they please start a new topic. Thanks (chas49)

[Novoiceleft]

Thanks everyone. The residents have "Level Zero" or "Pond Life" IT skills. Asking them to set up anything will fail. For example, the previous administrator wanted people to add a "Company.net" email address to their contacts list (so the mailings would get through) - and hardly anyone even knew what he was talking about.

The user experience we need to achieve is: Receive an email, Open an Acrobat Link if there is one, Read Document.

Right: I need a bit of help from you guys to figure out what I am inheriting. I need this like a hole in the head, but I am the only candidate

The previous incumbent is handing over to me. He is a 1990s (possibly 1980s) Corporate Telecoms guy/geek, who seems to have set up something appropriate for a FTSE listed 1990s company. He wants to hand over these things, and I dont even know what they relate to? They are likely to be Lift (phones and consoles), and Entrance Consoles/Answerphone for Estate Gates and multiple Entrance Foyers.

- Gigaset base station & local handsets
- cPanel activities (email maintenance, internet, intranet, FTP, VPN, licensing and Mailing lists which is all part of managing a Hosting package.
- VPAX and maintenance activities

Can anyone just explain at a high level what any of this kit might do? The Estate has an Office, in which sits a Printer (no computer), some box files, and some flashing light kit on the wall.

As per the conversation so far, I'd be comfortable taking over the domain storage, filing, emails, accounts etc. But the other stuff would have to go to a support company.

All help welcome.

NoVoice

[mc2fool]

Right: I need a bit of help from you guys to figure out what I am inheriting. I need this like a hole in the head, but I am the only candidate

The previous incumbent is handing over to me. He is a 1990s (possibly 1980s) Corporate Telecoms guy/geek, who seems to have set up something appropriate for a FTSE listed 1990s company. He wants to hand over these things, and I dont even know what they relate to? They are likely to be Lift (phones and consoles), and Entrance Consoles/Answerphone for Estate Gates and multiple Entrance Foyers.

- Gigaset base station & local handsets
- cPanel activities (email maintenance, internet, intranet, FTP, VPN, licensing and Mailing lists which is all part of managing a Hosting package.
- VPAX and maintenance activities

Can anyone just explain at a high level what any of this kit might do? The Estate has an Office, in which sits a Printer (no computer), some box files, and some flashing light kit on the wall.

As per the conversation so far, I'd be comfortable taking over the domain storage, filing, emails, accounts etc. But the other stuff would have to go to a support company.

Is the previous incumbent not going to explain it all and hand hold you through the takeover?

I don't know about the first and last of those three, but I am well familiar with cPanel and ... look, that is well techie stuff and if you want to continue with it you are in for a steep learning curve. Just maintaining the email configurations alone will require learning and understanding a whole set of concepts, technobabble and acronyms (if you want a taster look up any of Infrasonic's postings here on email delivery! )

My concern for you is that you'll end up getting in sufficiently deep enough that it'll be very difficult to get anyone else to help or, indeed, eventually take over from you, and you'll be stuck with it in perpetuity. Becoming irreplaceable would not be a good thing!

While I won't pretend that the aforementioned Google stuff (Groups and Drive) could be maintained by folks that look blankly at the idea of adding an address to their contacts list, it's much more on the friendly non-techie side than cPanel etc. So, once again, I suggest that you just try setting those up and playing with them to see if they'll do the job for you. The learning curve will be massively shallower, and I really do think you should just go for the simplest and easiest solution that will fulfil your needs, and avoid any temptation to gold-plate or one-plus.

[Infrasonic]

https://www.gigaset.com/hq_en/gigaset-base/

PAX - https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=what+ ... nt=gws-wiz

I'd concur with mc2fools analysis - what you are taking on here is definitely going to need some professional IT consultant involvement, preferably with a smooth handover from the exiting bod (he needs to provide written documentation of how he has everything set up currently for whoever follows), and any director DIY aspects will need to be as turnkey as possible (i.e. the email/documents/cloud side of things).

I follow a few pro networking types online, some have companies turning over a few million a year and even they don't mess with self hosting email anymore either for themselves or their clients as it's just too time consuming sorting out delivery issues. They all recommend going a turnkey route, primarily paid MS365 or Google Workspaces with domains. Many domain hosting companies will offer packages with MS365+exchange online as an add on option, that way you don't have to bother messing with DNS/TXT settings et al - but it would cost more that way.

For what you are doing you might get away with the free MS/Google options there (it depends on what level of data protection legislation you have to comply with - so yet more research homework ) - again you'd need to write everything down as you go so others can see at a glance what the ecosystem is if they become an admin.

Good luck!