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Gas boiler died

Does what it says on the tin
Slarti
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Gas boiler died

#135178

Postby Slarti » April 27th, 2018, 4:31 pm

Had the mad for the annual service today and he's condemned the 30 year old Glow worm Fuelsaver F as it is producing as much CO and CO2 where it passes through the wall as from the exhaust outside.

This means a new boiler, which is a bit of a bugger and leads to questions.

1) He said that all boilers are condensing ones now. Is that correct?
2) If it is does that mean that the header and expansion tanks will no longer be needed?

And the obvious question, any recommendations or cautions regarding makes?

Slarti

Itsallaguess
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Re: Gas boiler died

#135194

Postby Itsallaguess » April 27th, 2018, 5:10 pm

Slarti wrote:
And the obvious question, any recommendations or cautions regarding makes?


Vaillant would get my vote - I've been a very happy owner for many years, and I know that Mike from TMF always used to say that he got very few call-outs for them - which spoke volumes to him regarding their reliability, and that's been my experience too.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Slarti
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Re: Gas boiler died

#135195

Postby Slarti » April 27th, 2018, 5:13 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
Vaillant would get my vote - I've been a very happy owner for many years, and I know that Mike from TMF always used to say that he got very few call-outs for them - which spoke volumes to him regarding their reliability, and that's been my experience too.


I couldn't remember which he'd said.

A great pity that he didn't come across here with the rest of us.

Slarti

staffordian
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Re: Gas boiler died

#135207

Postby staffordian » April 27th, 2018, 5:59 pm

Slarti wrote:Had the mad for the annual service today and he's condemned the 30 year old Glow worm Fuelsaver F as it is producing as much CO and CO2 where it passes through the wall as from the exhaust outside.

This means a new boiler, which is a bit of a bugger and leads to questions.

1) He said that all boilers are condensing ones now. Is that correct?
2) If it is does that mean that the header and expansion tanks will no longer be needed?

And the obvious question, any recommendations or cautions regarding makes?

Slarti

Question 1, essentially yes

Question 2, optional. Condensing and combi are often confused. You can get rid of tanks if you have a combi boiler, but this isn't necessary. You can use appropriate condensing boilers with a variety of setups, one of which might simply be a boiler swap retaining most of the existing plumbing if so required.

Slarti
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Re: Gas boiler died

#135213

Postby Slarti » April 27th, 2018, 6:26 pm

staffordian wrote:Question 1, essentially yes

Question 2, optional. Condensing and combi are often confused. You can get rid of tanks if you have a combi boiler, but this isn't necessary. You can use appropriate condensing boilers with a variety of setups, one of which might simply be a boiler swap retaining most of the existing plumbing if so required.


Thanks for that.

The simple swap would be our favoured option, due to minimal work and disruption.

Slarti

supremetwo
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Re: Gas boiler died

#135222

Postby supremetwo » April 27th, 2018, 6:42 pm

Slarti wrote:Had the mad for the annual service today and he's condemned the 30 year old Glow worm Fuelsaver F as it is producing as much CO and CO2 where it passes through the wall as from the exhaust outside.

This means a new boiler, which is a bit of a bugger and leads to questions.

1) He said that all boilers are condensing ones now. Is that correct?
2) If it is does that mean that the header and expansion tanks will no longer be needed?

And the obvious question, any recommendations or cautions regarding makes?

Slarti

Common that the flue tubes suffer corrosion long term.

If nothing else wrong with the boiler, replacing the flue is not difficult.

https://www.heatingspareparts.com/boile ... ?id=122635

Slarti
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Re: Gas boiler died

#135223

Postby Slarti » April 27th, 2018, 6:44 pm

FredBloggs wrote:Another solid vote for Vaillant. We swapped our old Baxi out for a Vaillant and kept the hot water cylinder, header tank etc... Yes all modern gas boilers are condensing. They cannot meet the required efficiency without condensing. Typically, me and others I know who have swapped from an old gas boiler instantly save around 30% on their gas bill for the same comfort level.



Thanks.

30% would be nice, but would still take ages to pay for the new boiler, which has been my reason for trying to stick with the old one as long as possible.

Slarti

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Re: Gas boiler died

#135225

Postby Alaric » April 27th, 2018, 6:56 pm

Slarti wrote:The simple swap would be our favoured option, due to minimal work and disruption.


It's not quite as simple as it ought to be with new boilers being wall mounted and older ones floor standing. There's also differences in the pipework and control systems. If the radiators are as old as the boiler, they may also not take kindly to a new hot water driver. In terms of cost, it's not just the boiler but also the accompanying installation work which can be two or three times the direct cost of a boiler.

malakoffee
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Re: Gas boiler died

#135254

Postby malakoffee » April 27th, 2018, 10:01 pm

Be aware of the different exhaust "product" from a condensing boiler . . . . . . This may cause trouble if near a neighbour's property or boundary.

Old boiler flue gas is very hot, invisible and shoots nearly vertically upwards from the flue exit.

Condensing boiler : flue gas is MUCH cooler ( because it has passed through a couple of heat exchangers to recover as much heat as possible ).
This cooler exhaust is highly visible, due to 100% relative humidity *, and tends to be blown out - often horizontally - by a powerful fan.

* a.k.a. mist/fog

There are Building Regulations to comply with when fitting a condensing boiler. These are for structural & safety reasons.

There are also Local Authority guidelines relating to the siting of the flue. These are an attempt to pre-empt the creation of a statutory nuisance from the boiler exhaust plume.

Boiler Manufacturers are aware of the plume problem and produce a variety of add-on, kits to divert the plume in various directions.
Strangely enough these plastic pipes are of a diameter that don't match any other type of plastic pipe. They are quite expensive for bits of plastic pipe.

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Re: Gas boiler died

#135262

Postby Alaric » April 27th, 2018, 11:44 pm

malakoffee wrote:Be aware of the different exhaust "product" from a condensing boiler . . . . . . This may cause trouble if near a neighbour's property or boundary.


It's like having a steam engine on the premises. Your own local cloud generator.

redsturgeon
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Re: Gas boiler died

#135277

Postby redsturgeon » April 28th, 2018, 8:13 am

Vaillant or Worcester

John

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Re: Gas boiler died

#135278

Postby staffordian » April 28th, 2018, 8:17 am

I started a thread a while ago which may be of interest to the OP...

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4031&hilit=Vaillant

Slarti
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Re: Gas boiler died

#135361

Postby Slarti » April 28th, 2018, 4:47 pm

Alaric wrote:
Slarti wrote:The simple swap would be our favoured option, due to minimal work and disruption.


It's not quite as simple as it ought to be with new boilers being wall mounted and older ones floor standing. There's also differences in the pipework and control systems. If the radiators are as old as the boiler, they may also not take kindly to a new hot water driver. In terms of cost, it's not just the boiler but also the accompanying installation work which can be two or three times the direct cost of a boiler.


The old boiler is wall mounted and as there is no intention of changing the pump, why would that affect the radiators?

Slarti

Alaric
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Re: Gas boiler died

#135367

Postby Alaric » April 28th, 2018, 5:46 pm

Slarti wrote:The old boiler is wall mounted and as there is no intention of changing the pump, why would that affect the radiators?


All I know is that I had to replace all the radiators within a couple of years of getting a new boiler. It may not have been absolutely necessary but the system never circulated properly following the new boiler being put in. The old valves had rusted in place so were no longer adjustable, which didn't help.

The chains, Southern Electric in our case, are good at getting people to come to quote and producing quotes, which is more than could be said for local plumbers. It's pot luck as to who you get for the actual installation and how good they are working with fifty year old hardware.

Slarti
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Re: Gas boiler died

#135371

Postby Slarti » April 28th, 2018, 6:10 pm

Alaric wrote: The old valves had rusted in place so were no longer adjustable, which didn't help.


Ah, biannual maintenance requires turning each valve all the way one way, all the way the other and then back to the mark that you made at some point.

Taught that one by an ancient uncle as a lad, that way they don't seize up. Well not quite so much.

Slarti

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Re: Gas boiler died

#135374

Postby JMN2 » April 28th, 2018, 6:13 pm

redsturgeon wrote:Vaillant or Worcester

John


It's like deja vu all over again...apparently worcester bosch is rubbish and any other make is king.

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Re: Gas boiler died

#135396

Postby stewamax » April 28th, 2018, 9:49 pm

A few years ago Valliant were the bees knees, but they seem latterly - from the point of view of build quality and reliability- to have gone down market.
It is worth a look at Viessmann (huge in Germany) and ATAG (big in the Netherlands but newish over here) as the build quality of both appears excellent. They both have stainless steel heat exchangers, and the ATAG Combi Economiser also has domestic hot water pre-heat from the flue gas that helps hot water flow and saves a few ££.

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Re: Gas boiler died

#138138

Postby PinkDalek » May 10th, 2018, 6:15 pm

Slarti wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
Vaillant would get my vote - I've been a very happy owner for many years, and I know that Mike from TMF always used to say that he got very few call-outs for them - which spoke volumes to him regarding their reliability, and that's been my experience too.


I couldn't remember which he'd said.

A great pity that he didn't come across here with the rest of us.

Slarti


I happened to spot this post when looking for Mike4 - therefore see:

viewtopic.php?p=138137#p138137

Slarti
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Re: Gas boiler died

#138145

Postby Slarti » May 10th, 2018, 6:53 pm

I should add an update to this as today we had the new boiler installed.

It is a Vaillant and we have got Hive.

As the system has only been in since about 16:00 I am not prepared to offer many opinions, yet.

Only, I got 3 prices and there was only a small difference between BG and the other 2 and BG guaranteed that their quote would be the most we would pay. Their rep included the cost of providing an earth spike, if there wasn't one, but as there was that saved £370 off the quote. Which does seem rather a lot.

First opinion is, some of the options in Hive seem very strange to me. Like you can't actually turn the heating off, you have to have "frost guard" on, even when you have it "manually" off. If there was any risk of the temperature in the house dropping below 7C then the heating would be on.

But, the guys who did the job did it quickly. We were told that it would be at least a day and a half's work. They did it between 08:15 and 16:00, including the paperwork. Which I find pretty impressive.

I'll report back on the gas usage for the water in a couple of months and, if I remember, for the heating once it is back on.

Cheers
Slarti

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Re: Gas boiler died

#138148

Postby staffordian » May 10th, 2018, 7:26 pm

Slarti wrote:First opinion is, some of the options in Hive seem very strange to me. Like you can't actually turn the heating off...

Cheers
Slarti

This seems to be the norm for modern controls.

It sounds counter-intuitive, but it works fine in my experience.

When setting the program, whenever you want it off, you simply program it to a low temperature, eg 10 C.

Good luck with it, and here's hoping for a really cold spell so you can see how it all works :D


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