The Lemon Fool

I'm having an engineer visit this week to hopefully repair a 'trusted' big-brand quality gas condensing boiler. When I booked the appointment I was offered insurance to cover both this visit, and any further ones within IIRC the following 6 months. It did strike me as curious that they'd offer insurance even at the point when a repair is needed, but given the likely £ of what I believe might be wrong I went ahead.
After having read the detailed policy through I noticed an apparent catch-22.

'The Initial repair
The initial inspection
When you first take out the plan, our approved repairer will carry out an initial inspection of the boiler to determine if it is possible to carry out the initial repair.
Conditions for the initial repair
It will not be possible to carry out the initial repair if the approved repairer reports that any of the following conditions apply:
- the boiler does not meet the conditions that apply to the plan (see above 'What heating equipment is eligible for the plan' above and 'Your responsibilities' below);
- they can't repair your boiler; or
- the boiler is in our view beyond economic repair'

What disincentive might the manufacter's engineer have in concluding the latter, when such a repair would mean they make zero profit from the insurance?
Has anyone had a policy like this and on the first call-out been told the boiler is beyond economic repair? I'm trying to get an idea of how this visit might play-out.

If the boiler is considered beyond economic repair I would suggest you get a second opinion from a local boiler repair specialist.

The big companies had a reputation of saying boilers were not repairable when all they needed was a simple and cheap repair. I'm sure they had a financial incentive to do so. I'm a little out of date so this may no longer be the case. A friend of mine was a boiler repair engineer and he routinely got boilers working that had been considered uneconomic by one of the big companies.

If you do find you need a new boiler I would look to a small company or a one man band because their prices can be much less than the big outfits charge. Obviously get more than one quote and make sure that the boiler is a good make. I use Vaillant boilers and they have a good following on here. Worcester Bosch are also often recommended. If the boiler is fitted by an installer approved by the boiler company you may get a guarantee of up to 10 years depending on the offers on at the time.

DiamondEcho wrote:What disincentive might the manufacter's engineer have in concluding the latter, when such a repair would mean they make zero profit from the insurance?
Has anyone had a policy like this and on the first call-out been told the boiler is beyond economic repair? I'm trying to get an idea of how this visit might play-out.

About 15 years ago I took out a similar policy on a washing machine repair*. The premium was something like £100 and with similar conditions that it wouldn't cover anything beyond economic repair, but if I recall correctly, in such circumstances you got a refund of the premium (is yours similar?).

The repair person did initially try to make an argument that it was beyond economic repair (if I recall it needed both a new motor and control board), but some gentle persuasion got them to change their mind.

As for how they make money, the premium was non-refundable (with the exception of the beyond economic repair clause) whatever the fault. So even if it was something as simple as the fuse in the plug had gone, that was still a £100 fee. Lots of simple faults which were cheap to repair covered the few expensive ones.

*Touch wood, 15 years later it is still working.

If I were you I would exercise any get out clause on your insurance (cooling off period?) This sort of insurance is seldom worthwhile. Much better to get your boiler serviced annually by a local outfit you can trust, and then if something goes wrong you can look to the local man with some confidence in his advice. Mostly around my way anyway, a service will cost about £100/150 pa.

Dod

Dod101 wrote:If I were you I would exercise any get out clause on your insurance (cooling off period?) This sort of insurance is seldom worthwhile. Much better to get your boiler serviced annually by a local outfit you can trust, and then if something goes wrong you can look to the local man with some confidence in his advice. Mostly around my way anyway, a service will cost about £100/150 pa.

Dod

Agree with this - though a service round my way is more £60/70.

Dod101 wrote: Much better to get your boiler serviced annually by a local outfit you can trust, and then if something goes wrong you can look to the local man with some confidence in his advice.

It's probably a good idea to pay them promptly as well to retain their goodwill if you needed them in a hurry one day.

Indeed. I do that with all tradesmen. provided of course I am happy with the results of their endeavours.

Dod

DiamondEcho wrote:What disincentive might the manufacter's engineer have in concluding the latter, when such a repair would mean they make zero profit from the insurance?

Good evening Mr Echo. Long time no see!

According to posters in the closed forum for gas geezers I frequent, there seems to be a HUGE difference between manufacturer technicians out on the road and insurance company technicians. The former broadly speaking are keen to look after their company's reputation by fixing genuine faults whenever they can (i.e. 99% of the time), while those from 'other' companies tend to be keen to find reasons to condemn a boiler, get the salesman in and bump up their sales referrals commission. Not all though. Some technicians still have some personal integrity but who turns up is luck of the draw. Set against this if the boiler has been thrown at the wall and all installation instructions ignored, the manu technicians may well (justifiably) blame the installer and refer you back to them if the fault you called them out for is clearly and obviously down to short-cutting on the installation. Failure to cleanse the system, fit a big enough gas supply pipe or follow the pipework layout instructions are favourites for this.

Hope that helps...

MiketheBoilerman wrote:

DiamondEcho wrote:What disincentive might the manufacter's engineer have in concluding the latter, when such a repair would mean they make zero profit from the insurance?

Good evening Mr Echo. Long time no see!

According to posters in the closed forum for gas geezers I frequent, there seems to be a HUGE difference between manufacturer technicians out on the road and insurance company technicians. The former broadly speaking are keen to look after their company's reputation by fixing genuine faults whenever they can (i.e. 99% of the time), while those from 'other' companies tend to be keen to find reasons to condemn a boiler, get the salesman in and bump up their sales referrals commission. Not all though. Some technicians still have some personal integrity but who turns up is luck of the draw. Set against this if the boiler has been thrown at the wall and all installation instructions ignored, the manu technicians may well (justifiably) blame the installer and refer you back to them if the fault you called them out for is clearly and obviously down to short-cutting on the installation. Failure to cleanse the system, fit a big enough gas supply pipe or follow the pipework layout instructions are favourites for this.

Hope that helps...

I'm guessing you are Mike4 from the old site?

If so welcome to it's reincarnation!

staffordian wrote:
I'm guessing you are Mike4 from the old site?

If so welcome to it's reincarnation!

It is indeed! I'm registered here as Mike4 too but couldn't log in, so rather doubting any mods would be awake at 1.30am I thought I'd register again.

I seem to spend my whole life specialising in fixing 'vintage' boilers now. Potterton Netaheats etc.

MiketheBoilerman wrote:I seem to spend my whole life specialising in fixing 'vintage' boilers now. Potterton Netaheats etc.

I'm sure that's because modern condensing boilers are now far more reliable and never need any attention

Scott.

swill453 wrote:I'm sure that's because modern condensing boilers are now far more reliable and never need any attention

Scott.

Lol!

Its because most of these ancient boilers have given 25 years trouble-free service and when they finally go wrong in their dotage, most owners suspect a simple repair is all that is needed. They are reluctant to throw away a boiler that has given such good service just because the gas bod they called to fix it clearly has never seen one before and doesn't understand how it works. They would rather it was fixed than replaced.

Chucking out an old boiler simply because the bloke they called out fix it seems unwilling or unable to, seems wrong to a lot of people and they are reluctant to do it. So they have a google for the name on the front of their boiler, and many land on my website dealing with how to fix that particular boiler. Then they decide to call me.

Having said that, the phone is curiously quiet this week!

MiketheBoilerman wrote:I'm registered here as Mike4 too but couldn't log in, so rather doubting any mods would be awake at 1.30am I thought I'd register again.

Not awake! As is evidenced here at 1.57am I was not only awake but had just hurtled back through the cold night on my motorbike from the Fool Social in London!

Doubt I could have helped you though.

Regards,
Chris

I concur with Mike4’s commendation of the longevity of “old fashioned” boilers. Until July I had an under-powered but apparently sound Thorn M56/76 that was thirty-something years old. Apart from needing a new thermocouple every five years or so (a 5 minute job) it was trouble free.

The various engineers who came to give it a blow-out and check-up once a year would in the past have tried to sell me a replacement, but latterly had been complimentary about the Thorn: “they go on for ever”

My concern though was that it vented through a lined chimney, and that if it finally departed this life, it would inevitably be on a bitterly freezing weekend in January – with the prospect of frozen pipes as well as and frozen me. Replacement meant relocating a lot of pipework: chimneys are almost always unusable as they cannot be ‘inspected’.

I am pleased with the new boiler (a 35KW Viessmann 100W with a 10 year guarantee) but have no illusions that it will last another thirty-something years. But neither will I !

MiketheBoilerman wrote:

DiamondEcho wrote:Good evening Mr Echo. Long time no see!

Blimey M4, long time indeed, 15+ years? Thx for the reply. Well what I can say is that the engineer did turn up in a Vaillant branded van. He did fix the boiler for now, but said if it is was the expansion vessel, due to the boiler being being at chest/head height in a narrow cupboard [eye-roll] it would take 2 engineers to remove it and work of it. Ie the suggestion that would be 'serious'...

* IDR remember off the top of my head precisely now, but I did take take detailed notes I can refer back to, but IIRC it was just a 'smaller' valve part.