Radiators

[melonfool]

Hi

As ever, I am facing difficulties with trades people.

Before I can get my new floor (the guys are lined up for that) I need to change a radiator as it is too long and goes behind my sideboard (my gin is getting mulled!). In doing so, I would like to change all three downstairs radiators to a more modern style so they look nice with the new floor and curtains.

The plumber is lined up and has quoted but is not capable of helping me to buy the things.

So, I have measured and the plumber has determined the btu I need (9,000 for the living room, he didn't do the kitchen) and looked around to find them.

And I seem incapable of finding a place that stocks all three (I'm not *that* fussy on style, but I do want them all the same and a newer flat panel style), has them in stock, can deliver etc. One local place has something that would do (I'm not over awed by them though) but I can't order online and I won't be able to go in there this week. This style: https://www.plumbase.co.uk/barlo-slieve ... 44-2201583

B&Q don't do ones I like and their website is a nightmare.

Because all three are different sizes and need different btu, I need a website with lots of functional options - so I need to be able to set the height, width and specify single or double to get the btu right.

So, DIYers, which website would you use? Where have you found to be reliable for this sort of thing please?

(and why oh why is it so difficult to get trades people to do work!?)

Thanks

Mel

[swill453]

Screwfix?

Scott.

[tango2082]

Hi,

I recently bought a radiator from Direct Heating Supplies -
https://www.directheatingsupplies.co.uk ... gIHIvD_BwE

Their prices were good and delivery was quick and easy - worth a look?

(No connection!)

Regards
Tango

[melonfool]

Thank you both - it's making me want to cry!

The trouble is, I don't know if what I am hoping for is impossible. If I at least knew it was possible I could look until I find it.

Every time I find one I like well enough, I search and find one size, then they don't have the other size. I've currently found all three sizes but two are doubles, meaning they cost a lot more and I have about 5k btu too much - there's no point paying for output I won't need. But I can't find the same ones as singles in the right size. There are singles of that size in other ranges, so that's not the issue. One of the sizes is reasonably flexible but one is very fixed for height and one is fixed for width.

I'll just keep going til I find them all in one retailer, in one range, that can deliver (though then I have the issue of the fact I'm not at home to take delivery anyway). I can't just go and buy them because they won't fit in the car.

Mel

[fisher]

I bought quite a number of radiators a few years ago via plumbnation.co.uk. A couple were damaged when I received them but they did get replaced, and to be fair, the damaged ones were extremely large (which is partly why I used them - they stocked them).

They had a wide range of stock available.

[PrincessB]

Because all three are different sizes and need different btu, I need a website with lots of functional options - so I need to be able to set the height, width and specify single or double to get the btu right.

I don't want to concern you overly, but I'm a little concerned about the BTU rating for the living room.

Please correct me if I remember this wrongly, but I seem to recall you live in an older property with quite thick solid walls and in the recent past had the windows replaced with triple glazed units?

Anyhow, back to radiators 101.

BTU is pretty easy to translate into something that makes more sense to the average person (I include myself in this category).

To convert BTU to kW divide the BTU by 3600 (it's actually 3412.142 but you can remember 3600 as it's the number of seconds in an hour and it's close enough for rough calculations).

Your recommended 9000 BTU radiator will chuck out about 2.6 kW, so somewhere between a two bar electric heater and a three bar unit - Or some more heat than a cheap and cheerful fan heater.

I personally like this way of looking at things because you could have a sort of instinctive feel as to the amount of heat that comes from a fan heater, so you can ground the amount of heat the radiator will deliver into something you already know about.

You could also do a real world test and turn off the radiator in the living room and use a 2kW fan heater for a day or two instead to see if the room becomes adequately warm. If you're chilly in there, you need more heat.

On to second part of radiators 101.

Unlike the fan heater, the radiator will only deliver it's rated heat output if the water flowing through it is hot enough. The usual rating is in the specifications and if you try the link to Screwfixes website:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/moretti-sorr ... _container

Withing the specification it says 'Heat outputs calculated at Delta_T50k.' which is a posh way of saying you only get the full heat output when the radiator is 50ºC hotter than the room it is trying to heat.

As a real world example, the three radiators in the kitchen/diner are running at the moment and their temperature is about 50ºC - indoor temperature at present is about 20ºC so my radiators are not delivering anything like their rated heat output as they are only managing Delta_T30k, essentially three fifths of their design power.

I have banged on about this in the past as I did the heat load calculations for the room and at that time I didn't know about the delta T side of things - I was just working out how much I would need from some fan heaters to keep the room warm on an icy day and did not realise how out I was on the radiator specification.

Thankfully, I had the sense to double the amount of heat I would need and specified the radiators accordingly. The real world result is that this large room (29x13 feet) is easy to heat even when it is well below freezing outside, the downside is that it takes an absolute age to warm up as there's just not enough heat availiable and as the radiators run on the cool side, they don't get hot enough to give that toasty warm feel when you are near them.

To conclude.

The first thing you need to establish is how much heat you need in your house. As it appears you still have the existing central heating system, you could do worse than invest £10 on an infrared thermometer (Amazon sell them) to see at a glance how hot your radiators actually get. IR thermometers are useful enough in the kitchen to make them a must have item, great for checking the temperature of hot oil before you put something into it.

I've have found that plumbers merchants (The ones that have enough space for a display area can be really helpful and at the very least will have some big catalogues to wade through).

Like others, I've found the Screwfix website easy to use. Toolstation have a more limited range .

When you look at the designer radiators, they tend to be tall and narrow while the more generic (and cheaper) radiators tend to be wider and squat. Wide designer style with a decent heat output will require more research.

HTH

B.

[stewamax]

Stelrad's range is worth a look as their website also has a stockist search.
I share PrincessB's reservation about your radiator sizing, and it is well worth the effort to do the job properly. See for example Stelrad's own (free) STARS radiator- and boiler-sizing application application. It is difficult to find on the website, but visit (https://www.stelrad.com/support-information/stars/).
Usual disclaimers.
And if you do decide to use STARS or a similar application, one prerequisite is a laser distance measurer (£20 upwards) that makes room measuring a breeze.

[melonfool]

I don't want to concern you overly, but I'm a little concerned about the BTU rating for the living room.

Please correct me if I remember this wrongly, but I seem to recall you live in an older property with quite thick solid walls and in the recent past had the windows replaced with triple glazed units?


HTH

B.

Thank you so much B.

Firstly - no, that's ^^ not me! I live in a 1960's mid terrace with decent gas heating, double glazing and insulation. I've never lived anywhere like your description. So, phew

Funnily enough, I have tried your fan heater experiment - when I don't want to heat the house but am sitting on the sofa working I often use just the fan heater. It's not enough to heat the whole room.

In my last but one house I had a gas fire with 4.5kw. I was told at the time it was more than I needed for the room. This house front room is about the same size, but has more glass. So, I think you're right, I do need to go higher. I have two rads in the living room so won't have an issue.

The room is c11' x 19' with a large window and patio doors. Not a high ceiling.

The kitchen is more or less the same size with just the one rad, smaller window and no patio doors, so I think I'll go for about 9k for that on its own. (I've just done the btu thing online and it says I need 6,500)

I can see me having to go to a plumber's merchant this weekend to have a look. I happened to go to B&Q today and they only had vertical rads. So, it may well be the case that what I am looking for doesn't exist. I don't really want vertical ones, I like pictures on the walls. Though there is one that could cope with being a vertical.

I got fed up looking again yesterday so I will try again tomorrow - I'm working from home which makes things easier.

Many thanks

Mel

[Pheidippides]

Hi,

I have recently changed two Screwfix towel rads out as they rusted really badly. It would put me off buying unbranded rads from them again. For the bathroom/toilet I chose Vogue stainless steel ladder rads from www.

In my (limited) experience, you can't go wrong with a brand like Stelrad (also Pegler and Drayton for valves). My own personal favourites are the Acova Striane rads that you can get from B&Q.

https://www.diy.com/search?Ntt=striane&sort=currentPrice

They are really attractive rads, I have them in almost every room, vertical and horizontal, in a variety of sizes. Many of them are over ten years old and show no yellowing or rusting whatsoever.

Recently I fitted one of the Kudox B&Q rads and was quite impressed with the apparent quality (if not with B&Q's shoddy delivery timings and damage)

Regards

Pheid

[EssDeeAitch]

Hi

As ever, I am facing difficulties with trades people.

.....................................................

So, DIYers, which website would you use? Where have you found to be reliable for this sort of thing please?

(and why oh why is it so difficult to get trades people to do work!?)

Thanks

Mel

I looked at these radiators for my extension - all sorts of sizes available , https://www.bestheating.com/milano-alph ... 190mm.html

But in the end I went for wall or ceiling mounted infrared panel heaters as I did not want to extend the existing micro-bore heating system. All being switched on next Monday so I cannot give you feedback on how they work just yet. One big benefit is that they can be mounted at high level or on the ceiling so out of the way of furniture. https://www.warm4less.com/

I did a lot of research on these and the various suppliers if you want more info, just ask.

[melonfool]

Thank you, I'll keep the B&Q ones in mind.

I went in there yesterday* and had a quick look and they only seemed to sell vertical anything. So I didn't hang around in that area. Their website is awful and they are not good value (though I get 7% discount through work).

I'm not 100% keen on the gaps in those ones to be honest, I envisage them getting a) full of dust and b) grubby if there is any condensation which then evaporates + said dust. I'm not in the habit of cleaning radiators so I would prefer to avoid anything that meant I had to start doing that!

Mel

* I went in to buy a tap, which I eventually found in the bedroom department. Of the taps they had on display, I wanted a pull out one, nearly all were broken. When I asked for help I was told to look at the ones on display. I explained they were broken and they expressed surprise, I said 'I have no idea why you sound surprised, they are all broken', then I had to wait while they unpacked one to show me, and they could not answer very simple questions. Their shelf labelling was inconsistent so it was impossible to know which taps had which feature, the staff didn't know what the symbols on the shelf labels meant anyway (why would they, they were bedroom staff!). I asked which was the best brand, the brand they told me, they only stock one model in, which isn't a pull out one......If I hadn't already bought the 7% off voucher I wouldn't have bothered!

[bionichamster]

Thank you, I'll keep the B&Q ones in mind.

I went in there yesterday* and had a quick look and they only seemed to sell vertical anything. So I didn't hang around in that area. Their website is awful and they are not good value (though I get 7% discount through work).

Screwfix is owned by B&Q but I've found Screwfix to be much better value on 90% of things, and not far off on the rest, however there is no browsing at Screwfix, you have to know what you want, it is mainly focussed on trade customers.

BH

[bionichamster]

As a real world example, the three radiators in the kitchen/diner are running at the moment and their temperature is about 50ºC - indoor temperature at present is about 20ºC so my radiators are not delivering anything like their rated heat output as they are only managing Delta_T30k, essentially three fifths of their design power.

I have banged on about this in the past as I did the heat load calculations for the room and at that time I didn't know about the delta T side of things - I was just working out how much I would need from some fan heaters to keep the room warm on an icy day and did not realise how out I was on the radiator specification.

Thankfully, I had the sense to double the amount of heat I would need and specified the radiators accordingly. The real world result is that this large room (29x13 feet) is easy to heat even when it is well below freezing outside, the downside is that it takes an absolute age to warm up as there's just not enough heat availiable and as the radiators run on the cool side, they don't get hot enough to give that toasty warm feel when you are near them.

I think it is risky to try and directly compare the output of fan heaters, electric bars and radiators which all deliver their heat to the room in different ways and thus feel different even if in the long run the result is the same.

Another important aspect with radiators is that their efficiency is very dependent on the ability of air to circulate round them, thus putting a sofa or a sideboard (does anyone have them these days? maybe I should say a 52" telly instead) or curtains in front of or over them is likely to impede their ability to effectively warm a room and if unavoidable might mean a higher rated (i.e. larger) rad is required.

BH

[melonfool]

Another important aspect with radiators is that their efficiency is very dependent on the ability of air to circulate round them, thus putting a sofa or a sideboard (does anyone have them these days?

BH

Um, it is my placement of my sideboard that means I need to change the rad for a smaller one! Currently, my gin is getting boiled.

I also plan to change the curtain arrangement, currently they come down to the ground and cover the rad under the window. The window does need to have some sort of covering most of the time due to its position, the view in and the angle of the sun. So the new plan is to have blinds that will be closed most of the time, and long curtains that will stay open but act as a 'frame' for the window and not block the rad.



Mel

[DrFfybes]

Hi

And I seem incapable of finding a place that stocks all three (I'm not *that* fussy on style, but I do want them all the same and a newer flat panel style), has them in stock, can deliver etc.
Mel

Do they have to be the same style?

unless they are in the same room it is unlikely you will ever notice.

Besides, with a TRV fitted and/or the lockshield valve turned down it doesn't really matter if they are oversize, it will just heat that room up quicker. Better that than having one slightly undersized as then the room never gets warm.

Screwfix site allows you to filter by size, or single/double/flat panel.

Paul

[fisher]

I've always used Stelrad radiators. They have a reputation for being good quality. They do vertical radiators now as well: https://www.heatandplumb.com/acatalog/s ... -radiators

[melonfool]

It's a very small house, I can stand in either room and see all three radiators so yes, they need to be the same style.

I don't have thermal valves. Do they come standard on new ones then? Or is this something I need to investigate separately? They are not something I have ever had or used, just use the main thermostat.

I don't mind having a higher output. But currently I can't get near the required output, let alone go over it! No idea why this is so hard.

The Screwfix website is OK. But it seems I simply can't get what I want.

Mel

[sg31]

If you want high heat output from a normal radiator you need double panelled finned. With designer radiators the style comes before efficiency so they need to be much larger to give you the same output. That gives you the option of going vertical or horizontal for the increase in size.

Your OP suggests length is the problem so going for vertical radiators we have this one at 12000BTU

https://www.radiatoroutlet.co.uk/1780-x ... l-radiator

It may not be to your taste but I think you are going to struggle to get 9000BTU from anything really fancy. Have a play around on the website that comes from and you will see what I mean.

PS, Chrome radiators give a much lower BTU output than bog standard white. I'm still trying to work out why.

Tradesmen are really busy at this time of year because people always want jobs doing 'before Christmas'. It gets quieter after Christmas. All the tradesmen in this area are struggling to keep up with the amount of work they are being offered. I've had electricians in the last 3 Sundays because it's the only time they have spare. They are doing me a favour by working Sundays. They are really pulled out with work.

[DrFfybes]

PS, Chrome radiators give a much lower BTU output than bog standard white. I'm still trying to work out why.

Emissivity.

Plus chrome finish is shiny on both sides (chrome plating is usually applied on top of a polished nickel base) so reflects heat back in.

Paul

[sg31]

Thanks for that.

When ever I've had chrome peel off the underside has been dull so I assumed it wasn't reflecting heat back. My reasoning was that it was a metal so should transmit heat better than a paint finish.

I'm not a plumber so it wasn't something that wasn't something I'd come across until last weekend when I needed a heated towel rail that produced enough heat for a new bathroom. Like Mel I was constrained by the space available, my wife wanted chrome and we needed as high an output as possible. In the end we managed to get something chrome that doesn't put out enough BTUs for our ideal requirements.

My wife would rather have something that looks nice even if means we freeze to death.