Vaillant v Worcester Bosch

[Howard]

Out of interest, as a Which member, I looked at the result of their boiler survey. They ask nearly 10,000 members every year about the boiler brand they own, how satisfied they are and whether it suffered any breakdowns. They also have a panel of more than 200 trusted boiler engineers who are not incentivised to recommend a particular brand.

The survey shows that Worcester Bosch scores 92%, Veissman 84% Valliant 78% and Ideal 58%. Valliant and Ideal scores were lower because they were recorded as less reliable than WB. The engineers in the survey also rated WB higher than Valliant and Ideal.

Can I declare an interest. Having read the Which surveys over the years, when I needed a new boiler around three years ago I chose a Worcester Bosch. It has a 10 year warranty, but to be valid, it must be serviced every year. I have a service contract from the installer which is much cheaper than the previous British Gas contract.

Ironically, as someone who measures his energy consumption by spreadsheet, I now realise I'm probably saving more on the service contract than on the reduced gas consumption compared with the 17 year old boiler I replaced!

regards

Howard

[brightncheerful]

We have a Vaillant, installed almost 11 years ago, to replace a Powermax.

Unsure whether to recommend V or not: compared to Powermax most definitely!

V wasn't installed by the boiler service heating engineer we have now: his criticism is of the installer, not the boiler. (The installer was a long-established reputable local company, reliable, etc: it ceased trading only because the proprietor went into a solar business that his son had set up.)

My criticism is that V used to bombard me with offers of extended warranty, service agreements, warnings of what could happen if I don't heed - and even after all this time V write occasionally, even though the installer says he asked V not to write to his customers; again that's a criticism of V' marketing, not the boiler.

The boiler service heating engineers (bshe) we use now are Worcester-Bosch oriented. bshe says that because Worcester-Bosch invests a lot in training its installers, W-B installers can offer 10 years guarantee for W-B installations, whereas for V bshe can only offer the manufacturer's guarantee. I wonder whether V are concerned about that, or more likely because V are obliged to keep/manufacture parts for at least 10 years, its obsolete models, such as ours, can still be serviced. By offering 10 years guarantee as a marketing ploy, V can capitalise of the existing cost to V of having to continuing making parts for models no longer sold.

I have asked our bshe about the difference between V and W-B. I have numerous Bosch products, mostly power tools (blue range) and know B to be very reliable and well-made. bshe suggests that W-B product quality overall is better than V and the W-B boilers better made and more reliable. (I gather that V introduced combis to the UK and at the time boiler installers etc didn't think combis would catch on!)

We haven't had any major issues with our V. Annual servicing passes all tests. Slight corrosion on steam/water parts but nothing untoward. The pressure gauge is the only issue but only because there is a minuscule leak somewhere in the radiator system: the radiators installed when the Powermax was originally installed when the house was built 1994 or thereabouts, so again not the fault of V.

No idea what others but I keep our V running at 50C for hot water, 60C for heating. Room thermostat rarely 24C, normally around 20C. Whether not running at full speed makes any difference to durability and reliability I've no idea. (Guess the same as a car: my car top speed is 120 mph+ so driving at around 40mph doesn't strain the engine.)

[UncleEbenezer]

Combi-boiler here is a Worcester.

I've always been happy with it. But the cold snap has cast a questionmark over it, with sudden and unwelcome changes to my shower temperature. Ugh.

Gets an annual service. That's a legal requirement on my landlord.

[rabbit]

There was a Vaillant combi boiler when I moved into my house some years ago. It was terribly unreliable from day one and it proved difficult to find a local engineer who could fix it. When, eventually, we did get it fixed properly, the repair cost a fortune. I replaced it with a Worcester about five years ago, and that's been no trouble at all. Maybe I had a bad experience of Vaillant - after all I have no idea how much abuse the previous owners gave it. But after that experience It's Worcester for me every time.

[JMN2]

A spanking new Worcester Bosch here. Would a German company have any involvement with a rubbish English brand? After all, on the continent everything is perfect, even the trade negotiators and and civil service. So they wouldn't touch anything here that was sh!te.

[malakoffee]

It is interesting how perspectives change over time. Several years ago, after some critical comments about WB from MikeTheBoilerMan, many contributors held Vaillant in high esteem. This included me.

I have no knowledge of how this Vaillant was used in the first five years before I bought the house, except that the house was unoccupied for half of that time and presumably had little or no use.

My first contact with Vaillant about servicing, rapidly established that it was outsourced to HomeServe. At the time, HomeServe were being punished by some regulator for some sort of misbehaviour. No thanks. But once they had my details there were many sales calls . . . . and an engineer turned up at the door for an unsolicited service. No thanks.

Since then the V. EcoTech has had very light use every winter :-
Less than 2,000 KWh of gas used for Central Heating over six months of winter
I switch OFF the Hot Water over winter and use an electric shower & kettle.

F75 related problems
Flow Sensor replaced - known problem especially for early models
Expansion tank replaced

I'll be swapping out the original Wilo pump for a Grundfos.
Known problem - Wilo pumps self-destruct after short service life.

Yesterday, a water-temp control knob just fell off in my hand - no significant force applied. - A well known problem.

Despite being eco-mental, I do hanker after a simpler, more reliable type of boiler ( even if lower efficiency ).
At my level of usage the maintenance costs are clearly outstripping the cost of the gas.

[stewamax]

It would be intriguing to find corroboration: have Valliant boilers recently been going downhill or W-B uphill?

I have no experience of Wilo pumps but share malakoffee's preference for Grundfos; in my experiences of their UPS2 and its predecessors, they only seem to expire when solidified black gunge on the impeller, shaft and impeller casing makes them grind hummingly to a halt. I have never had one burn out or otherwise die with a motor fault but perhaps I have been lucky. The pump itself can be changed quickly without disturbing the rear casing (the 'base') that has the 1.5inch BSP pipe connections by simply unscrewing four hex-headed bolts with an Allen key, and you can buy just the pump without the base; perhaps this is true of Wilo as well since the basic design of domestic CH pumps is inevitably rather similar.
My 22 radiators should be way too much for a UPS2, but it takes it in its stride.

[stewamax]

My own comment

It would be intriguing to find corroboration: have Valliant boilers recently been going downhill or W-B uphill?

gave rise to a further thought:
- did Valliant once (as Viessmann still do) supply all their boilers with stainless steel heat exchangers but lately have been chasing Worcester-Bosch and cheapened their domestic boiler range by using - as they now do - less-expensive aluminium heat exchangers? Their commercial range range is still stainless steel, but was their domestic range once stainless steel also?

Anyone have some older Valliant advertising material or boiler tech specs?

[JMN2]

I think Vaillant is probably rubbish and W-B is the bee's knees.

[Vamp]

Wouldn’t touch Vaillant!

Had an Echotech 418 regular boiler installed a month ago, it breaks down 2-3 times a day every since it’s commissioning. Fualt codes F23, F73, F82 and even lock ups in anti-cycle mode.

Have had the Gas Safe registered installer in 4 times to it already, even called customer technical help who said the problem wasn’t the boiler.

My installer, who we trust, has a best friend who is a senior tech with Vaillant, even so between them they can’t sort the issues.

Vaillant are claimed it’s a blockage in the system, which was powerflushed 3 months before the installation and cleansed again at the time of install.

If the boiler has spent more time in fault in its first month than it has heating our home, I dread to think what lies ahead.

In our last home, we had for 6 years we had a WB combi. Apart from the odd pump failure it was bullet proof. This has was supplied with a Potterton. It last 20 years but I understand their quality has nose dived in the last decade.

[Itsallaguess]

Wouldn’t touch Vaillant!

Had an Echotech 418 regular boiler installed a month ago, it breaks down 2-3 times a day every since it’s commissioning. Fault codes F23, F73, F82 and even lock ups in anti-cycle mode.

Have had the Gas Safe registered installer in 4 times to it already, even called customer technical help who said the problem wasn’t the boiler.

My installer, who we trust, has a best friend who is a senior tech with Vaillant, even so between them they can’t sort the issues.

Vaillant are claimed it’s a blockage in the system, which was powerflushed 3 months before the installation and cleansed again at the time of install.

If the boiler has spent more time in fault in its first month than it has heating our home, I dread to think what lies ahead.

Hi Vamp,

Welcome to The Lemon Fool...

I've had a very different experience, as I've had a Vaillant boiler for nearly 25 years and it's been absolutely fantastic, and I'd recommend them to anyone.

Back on the Motley Fool boards, we used to have a resident boiler-engineer who used to regularly recommend Vaillant boilers to people. He based his recommendation largely on the fact that almost none of his boiler call-outs were for Vaillant models, with the vast majority being for some of the other popular makes of boiler.

It sounds like you've been unlucky, either with a specific problem on your boiler, or more likely something to do with the installation of it...

Given what you've said, I know where my money would be...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Lanark]

I think with all brands reliability has fallen in line with the increases in efficiency.

A good metaphor would be having an old 8 cylinder car that revs at 4000 rpm - drinks petrol but lasts for decades.
Then compare it with a 3 cylinder 1L Turbo marvel that revs to 8000 rpm - highly efficient but then blows up after 4 years of driving it.

[sg31]

. I've fitted Vaillant boilers at my last 3 properties and have never had a problem. This one has been in 4 years now and has 6 years of warranty left.

I've looked at WB boilers and they are decent boilers these days but I understand they are much more difficult to repair. More dismantling to do to replace the parts that go wrong the most often.

You pay your money....to be honest you probably won't go far wrong with either.

[stewamax]

I used to rate Vaillant, but having recently looked at the builds of several makes - which is no guarantee of performance but some guide to maintainability, I would plump for neither Vaillant nor W-B but go for Viessmann or (assuming you can find a knowledgeable installer with manufacturer training) ATAG.

[PinkDalek]

... Back on the Motley Fool boards, we used to have a resident boiler-engineer who used to regularly recommend Vaillant boilers to people. He based his recommendation largely on the fact that almost none of his boiler call-outs were for Vaillant models, with the vast majority being for some of the other popular makes of boiler. ...

He's also here (as Mike4) but not posting as regularly as back on TMF. Maybe the move has been preoccupying him:

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=19512&p=251707#p251707

[jaizan]

I had an Ariston installed in 2006.
At approximately the same time, a good friend had a Vaillant installed.

In 13 years, the Ariston had a minor internal water leak, which I fixed with a jubilee clip. I also replaced the water pressure relief valve this year. No other problems.

The Vaillant has had a couple of circuit boards replaced, then the entire boiler was replaced after to corrosion on the heat exchanger.

Previously, I had been thinking that whenever the Ariston packed in, it would be Vaillant or perhaps a Bosch.

Now I would be likely to rush off to the local library and consult the Which magazines for boiler reliability data. If someone could make a rock solid reliable boiler with a 10 year no quibble guarantee, a 20 year design life & charge up to 50% more than the competition, that would be for me.

[swill453]

Now I would be likely to rush off to the local library and consult the Which magazines for boiler reliability data. If someone could make a rock solid reliable boiler with a 10 year no quibble guarantee, a 20 year design life & charge up to 50% more than the competition, that would be for me.

I had an Atag boiler fitted last year, on my plumber's recommendation. 10 year guarantee, no problems so far...

Scott.

[6Tricia]

I had my Worcester boiler serviced yesterday for the first time in four years, no problems found even though it's 18 years old!

The engineer said he would recommend MAXI boilers if or when it needs replacing. His reason being that they use a lot more brass in the construction than other makes and its design makes servicing or repairs easier than other boilers. 10 year guarantee too.

Tricia