Infrared for Home Energy

[yieldhog]

Moderator Message:
Moved from the SECTORS & GENERAL SHARE DEALING section as this isn't really an investment topic (chas49)

I'm thinking of converting all of my home energy consumption to electricity. Infrared heating panels will provide room by room heating. Bathroom towell rails can also be infrared. Our gas combi boiler will be replaced by electric heating for hot water. All our radiators will be removed. Our gas hob will be replaced by an induction hob. Solar panels will be installed to offset the electricity cost.

Has anyone gone down this route or even had one two infrared panels installed?

The biggest supplier of infrared heaters is Herschel. It's worth a look at their range of products.
https://www.herschel-infrared.co.uk/inf ... A-EALw_wcB

Y

[MrFoolish]

Aren't the running costs going to be expensive? And you won't get much energy from solar during the cold months.

[yieldhog]

Aren't the running costs going to be expensive? And you won't get much energy from solar during the cold months.

From what I understand, gas and electric costs are roughly on a par in terms of energy consumption. All I would be doing is switching my energy consumption from gas/electric to all electric. Your comment about solar is valid but all the energy from them will reduce the our electricity costs although not eliminate them completely.

I've yet to do my own calculations but already have a clear idea of what our annual gas/electric energy consumption is. All I need is an idea of what the proposed needs will be for all the infrared heaters and boiler.

Other factors to consider will be:
1. The cost of switching.
2. Value added/subtracted to the value of the house.
3. Ease of use and servicing costs.
4. Space saved by removing all radiators.
5. Any other factors?

I was hoping to hear from someone who has installed some domestic infrared heaters. Anyone out there?

Y

[88V8]

I'm thinking of converting all of my home energy consumption to electricity. Infrared heating panels will provide room by room heating. Bathroom towel rails can also be infrared. Our gas combi boiler will be replaced ...

The kwh unit cost of electricity is roughly four times the cost of gas.
And that's before one considers the capital cost of junking what is presumably a functioning system.

Induction is better than gas, yes, but the running cost of a hob is relatively trivial anyway.

Infra red heaters used to be a thing in bathrooms, up on the wall. Up on the wall is where panels have to be as one cannot put furniture in front of them.

They may have advantages, but compared to gas they are totally killed by running costs.

V8

[BullDog]

This winter so far, our daily gas usage has been between 40kwhrs and 110kwhrs. The difference being wholly dependant on daily temperature outside. So, I think that's in simple terms a maximum of around £8.25 a day and a minimum of around £3 in gas. Multiply that by 4x for the same heat load in electricity and it does look rather unaffordable to me.

[kempiejon]

We had some in the ceiling following the refurb of a small office extension at a place I worked a few years back, seemed OK at keeping the 4 or 5 desk open plan offices comfortable. No idea of course on costs or efficiencies and commercial buildings often have those suspended ceilings into which the panel just slot so fitting was a doddle.

[DrFfybes]

Aren't the running costs going to be expensive? And you won't get much energy from solar during the cold months.

From what I understand, gas and electric costs are roughly on a par in terms of energy consumption.

Who told you that - the infra red panel salesman? Gas is circa 7p/kWh, electricity circa 27p. A gas heating system would need to be phnominally inefficient to even come close to costing as much.

All I would be doing is switching my energy consumption from gas/electric to all electric. Your comment about solar is valid but all the energy from them will reduce the our electricity costs although not eliminate them completely.

This is very common but completely false thinking. You generate and export electricity in summer, you import it in winter for heating. Consider the solar panels as offsetting your gas costs, as much electricity comes from gas anyway.

Other factors to consider will be:
1. The cost of switching.
2. Value added/subtracted to the value of the house.
3. Ease of use and servicing costs.
4. Space saved by removing all radiators.
5. Any other factors?

I was hoping to hear from someone who has installed some domestic infrared heaters. Anyone out there?

Y

I suspect you won't find many

All the info out there seems to be from people selling them. The illustrations still being used quote low running costs, but when you drill into the details you find things like 12p/kWh and 5 hours per day being used as the base figures.

Also they heat you, not the room, so as soon as you move out of their target zone, you're not heated, so OK if you have one pointed at your favourite armchair, but the Jehova's Witness on the settee might be shivering.

Element Energy did a study for the Govt a few years ago for replacing LPG/oil heating on non-gas properties in Wales, at they time they said IR heaters were pretty much the most expensive form of electrical heating.

Google "element energy off gas heating study" and it will be near the top.

Paul

[MrFoolish]

Isn't calling them "infrared heaters" indulging in a bit of marketing hype? All radiant heat is surely infrared. How are these things any different to a bog standard flat panel electric heater? It just happens to be near the ceiling. I suppose it could focus the radiated energy in one particular direction but does it actually manage to achieve this?

[chas49]

Moderator Message:
Moved from the SECTORS & GENERAL SHARE DEALING section as this isn't really an investment topic (chas49)

[9873210]

Traditional "radiators" are mostly convectors. Most of the energy is transferred to the air which circulates past the radiator rather than by infrared radiation to objects and walls in the room. Increasing the amount of radiation either requires a larger area (such as the entire floor area of a room) or a hotter radiator (such as the glowing wire in a traditional three-bar fire or heat lamp).

The image looks like traditional radiators on the ceiling. They don't look big enough nor glowy enough to transfer much radiant energy and poorly placed for convection. They might work in a well-insulated house which only requires a little heat, but if you put them in a typical badly insulated building they will not be up to the job.

I have visited places in the northern US that use electric heat because of weird pricing. The infrared heaters were metal parabolic trough reflectors behind glowing wires. It was a quite comfortable form of heat and reasonably economical since it directly heats people in the room and only needs to be on when there is a person in the room. But it looked strange, and I'm sure health and safety would have a fit.

[DrFfybes]

Traditional "radiators" are mostly convectors. Most of the energy is transferred to the air which circulates past the radiator rather than by infrared radiation to objects and walls in the room. Increasing the amount of radiation either requires a larger area (such as the entire floor area of a room) or a hotter radiator (such as the glowing wire in a traditional three-bar fire or heat lamp).

The image looks like traditional radiators on the ceiling. They don't look big enough nor glowy enough to transfer much radiant energy and poorly placed for convection. They might work in a well-insulated house which only requires a little heat, but if you put them in a typical badly insulated building they will not be up to the job.

I thought matt black would be the best colour for an IR emitter.

[9873210]

Traditional "radiators" are mostly convectors. Most of the energy is transferred to the air which circulates past the radiator rather than by infrared radiation to objects and walls in the room. Increasing the amount of radiation either requires a larger area (such as the entire floor area of a room) or a hotter radiator (such as the glowing wire in a traditional three-bar fire or heat lamp).

The image looks like traditional radiators on the ceiling. They don't look big enough nor glowy enough to transfer much radiant energy and poorly placed for convection. They might work in a well-insulated house which only requires a little heat, but if you put them in a typical badly insulated building they will not be up to the job.

I thought matt black would be the best colour for an IR emitter.

Sort of but not really. Depends on whether you are talking physics "black" or home decor "black". You can't see IR so from a home decor perspective IR does not have a colour, the IR properties of the radiator do not affect the visual properties.

Absorptivity can vary with wavelengths. Blue paint reflects blue and absorbs red. A radiator that reflects visible light and absorbs IR could be a good IR radiator but appear white (or any other colour).

There are entire industries based on controlling absorptivity by wavelength.

[UncleEbenezer]

I'm thinking of converting all of my home energy consumption to electricity. Infrared heating panels will provide room by room heating. Bathroom towel rails can also be infrared. Our gas combi boiler will be replaced ...

The kwh unit cost of electricity is roughly four times the cost of gas.
And that's before one considers the capital cost of junking what is presumably a functioning system.

He's probably thinking of the running costs of a heat pump. Use one quarter of the energy, and the higher unit cost of energy is cancelled.

Though a possible joker in the pack is that there are reasons the cost differential between gas and leccy might fade away in the medium term.

Infra red heaters used to be a thing in bathrooms, up on the wall. Up on the wall is where panels have to be as one cannot put furniture in front of them.
V8

For my part, I avoid infrared heaters. I'd rather be cold than grilled, thank you. 'Cos it's basically the same technology as your grill.

[csearle]

Also they heat you, not the room, so as soon as you move out of their target zone, you're not heated, so OK if you have one pointed at your favourite armchair, but the Jehova's Witness on the settee might be shivering.

Sounds like the perfect heating system for me then: a radiation panel in front of my "Lemon Fool" notebook! C.

[Dicky99]

I don't know much, beyond their basic principle, about infrared heating but I do know a bit about the relationship between thermal mass, dew point temperature and mould resulting from condensation.

I suspect that these heating panels are most suited to well insulated modern construction, where there is less need to get a build up a store of warmth in the structure, and totally unsuited to older poorer insulated properties, particularly those with solid external walls. In the latter case the extremities of those walls would never get warm and be prone to mould propagation. As would clothes and leather goods in wardrobes which would presumably be permanently cold.

[UncleEbenezer]

I suspect that these heating panels are most suited to well insulated modern construction, where there is less need to get a build up a store of warmth in the structure, and totally unsuited to older poorer insulated properties, particularly those with solid external walls. In the latter case the extremities of those walls would never get warm and be prone to mould propagation. As would clothes and leather goods in wardrobes which would presumably be permanently cold.

Grills (aka infrared heaters) seem popular in old stone churches.

A generation ago, those were rarely heated, and could be cold as the tomb in winter. Then came the grills, and I had to start checking that a church wasn't going to inflict them on us before agreeing to go there, for example when I get asked to help out a choir.

[servodude]

I suspect that these heating panels are most suited to well insulated modern construction, where there is less need to get a build up a store of warmth in the structure, and totally unsuited to older poorer insulated properties, particularly those with solid external walls. In the latter case the extremities of those walls would never get warm and be prone to mould propagation. As would clothes and leather goods in wardrobes which would presumably be permanently cold.

Grills (aka infrared heaters) seem popular in old stone churches.

A generation ago, those were rarely heated, and could be cold as the tomb in winter. Then came the grills, and I had to start checking that a church wasn't going to inflict them on us before agreeing to go there, for example when I get asked to help out a choir.

I worked for a while in an office that was a converted warehouse which used gas grills (like one would find cooking a kebab) for heating
- just really unpleasant

[DrFfybes]

I don't know much, beyond their basic principle, about infrared heating but I do know a bit about the relationship between thermal mass, dew point temperature and mould resulting from condensation.

Ooooh - perhaps I should start another thread on this as our 1790s to 1990s house is being done and we're trying to work out the best way of insulating a 9 inch solid old extrenal wall with lime plaster. The builder suggests chipping back to brick then dot and dab insulated plasterboard on the inside but I didn't know if that would let it breathe enough, or if we need studwork a damp membrane inside, ot whatever. There is an old chemical injection damp course in there.

Paul

Moderator Message:
Please do start a separate thread! And for anyone tempted, let's not stray off-topic onto this Cheers! (chas49)

[yieldhog]

I started this thread with the hope I would hear from home-owners who have gone down the route of switching their homes to all-electric. Replies have been helpful and interesting but none have been from significant home infrared home owners. Before you quip they don't exist I've just saved you the effort.

More importantly there are a few things to consider if, like me, you are thinking along those lines.

1. Some time in the not so distant future, we will all need to stop using gas central heating and petrol/diesel cars.
2. There seem to be some misconceptions/out-of-date ideas about infrared as a source of clean energy.
3. The main alternative to gas central heating currently seems to be some sort of heat exchange/air source system. How do these compare with infrared?

The first point is obvious but I wonder how many people have really thought about what that will mean for them. Maybe I am guilty of misconceptions but from what I read these systems require substantial home alterations including replacing radiators, finding space for equipment as well as being expensive. Also, from my personal experience with friends who have installed ground source home energy, the system does not provide a sufficient level of heat and must be supplemented with something else such as a woodburner/electric fire etc.

The second point is clear from several comments in this thread. For example, some have mentioned having to have bathroom heating up on/near the ceiling. Not true. You can get infrared towel rails and/or keep/install a towel rail with an inbuilt immersion heater. Our main bathroom is fitted with a towel rail that works with the central heating in the winter and then independently with the immersion heater in the summer when the CH is dormant.
Secondly,much has been made of the fact that infrared heat is absorbed by the objects it hits first. I think of infrared heaters as sunshine within the space where they are installed. Yes, they heat objects, including people, but not in a harmful way. Some of the objects will retain the heat for a time, just as they will with gas central heating. Think of how the sun heats objects on a hot summers day - the sand on a beach can get too hot to walk on, cars can get too hot to touch etc. Infrared heaters properly placed on ceilings or walls will disipate heat over wide areas when it is wanted.
Infrared heaters are no longer ugly. Ceiling models can be very slim and unobtrusive, wall models can be bought to look like framed pictures to suit many tastes.

I will continue to research the issues involved before I commit to a home without gas but so far, apart from cost, I do not see any downside to infrared, combined with solar panels and a log-burner. A last word on cost, I looked at our own energy usage for 2023. This is for a 5-bed, 3.5 bath , modern detached house occupied by 3 adults (two retired, one working) and a dog. We like to keep the house at about 20C except at night when 16C is okay.

For 2023
Total gas consumption 14,170 kWh
Total electricity used 3,037 kWh
Cost of gas £1,351
Cost of elecricity £1,040
Ratio cost of gas/elec 3.6 i.e. electric cost 3.6 times the the cost of gas per kWh

Y

[88V8]

I started this thread with the hope I would hear from home-owners who have gone down the route of switching their homes to all-electric. Replies have been helpful and interesting but none have been from significant home infrared home owners. Before you quip they don't exist I've just saved you the effort.
More importantly there are a few things to consider if, like me, you are thinking along those lines.

1. Some time in the not so distant future, we will all need to stop using gas central heating and petrol/diesel cars.

....Ratio cost of gas/elec 3.6 i.e. electric cost 3.6 times the the cost of gas per kWh

When we reach the supposed cut-off date for new gas installations, just watch the govt back away.
Even if Labour ran pylons across the national parks - I wouldn't put it beyond them - the grid will not be ready.

Before you make the leap, if you do, I would try it for a year in one room, and see how you get on.

V8