Employee problem

[GoSeigen]

Scenario: small family-run business <10 employees, low staff turnover. Male employee age 50-55, the groundskeeper, is in most ways a dependable and useful worker but last week beat his partner (accusing her of cheating) on the premises in presence of another member of staff. This person is a foreign national, his partner local and they have three small children, he's likely to be deported if charged and is the main source of income for his family. Today at my instigation the employee and partner and I attended the local police station where the specialist family officer gave him a dressing down and a warning.

Question is, how stupid would I be not to dismiss this employee? Is it really dumb to give him a chance? If I dismiss him his immigration status will also be affected as we are sponsoring his visa application.

If I don't dismiss do we have a formal disciplinary in addition to the police involvement?

Help!!


GS

[servodude]

Scenario: small family-run business <10 employees, low staff turnover. Male employee age 50-55, the groundskeeper, is in most ways a dependable and useful worker but last week beat his partner (accusing her of cheating) on the premises in presence of another member of staff. This person is a foreign national, his partner local and they have three small children, he's likely to be deported if charged and is the main source of income for his family. Today at my instigation the employee and partner and I attended the local police station where the specialist family officer gave him a dressing down and a warning.

Question is, how stupid would I be not to dismiss this employee? Is it really dumb to give him a chance? If I dismiss him his immigration status will also be affected as we are sponsoring his visa application.

If I don't dismiss do we have a formal disciplinary in addition to the police involvement?

Help!!


GS

Only you are going to have the measure of the situation, culture and people involved - and it sounds like it needs delicate handling.

I can only really offer a general opinion based on what you've provided and on the fact that you are even considering keeping him on.

If you believe it was a momentary lapse, that he is genuinely contrite and that it will not cause issue (or set an unhelpful precedent) with other staff (or aspect of the buisness) I think that keeping him on, with serious conditions, could make sense.

It would need written up and recorded with all the "offical warning" ducks in a row - probably worth checking and revising what you have for staff contracts to make sure that the policy going forward explicitly covers what people can expect.

He will be significantly in your debt and knowing that should help keep him in check.

Another offence would be "do not pass go"

[AsleepInYorkshire]

Scenario: small family-run business <10 employees, low staff turnover. Male employee age 50-55, the groundskeeper, is in most ways a dependable and useful worker but last week beat his partner (accusing her of cheating) on the premises in presence of another member of staff. This person is a foreign national, his partner local and they have three small children, he's likely to be deported if charged and is the main source of income for his family. Today at my instigation the employee and partner and I attended the local police station where the specialist family officer gave him a dressing down and a warning.

Question is, how stupid would I be not to dismiss this employee? Is it really dumb to give him a chance? If I dismiss him his immigration status will also be affected as we are sponsoring his visa application.

If I don't dismiss do we have a formal disciplinary in addition to the police involvement?

Help!!

GS

Only you are going to have the measure of the situation, culture and people involved - and it sounds like it needs delicate handling.

I can only really offer a general opinion based on what you've provided and on the fact that you are even considering keeping him on.

If you believe it was a momentary lapse, that he is genuinely contrite and that it will not cause issue (or set an unhelpful precedent) with other staff (or aspect of the buisness) I think that keeping him on, with serious conditions, could make sense.

It would need written up and recorded with all the "offical warning" ducks in a row - probably worth checking and revising what you have for staff contracts to make sure that the policy going forward explicitly covers what people can expect.

He will be significantly in your debt and knowing that should help keep him in check.

Another offence would be "do not pass go"

Difficult situation.

I can't really say a great deal more than sd already has. I think you've provided him with some boundaries and all you can do is hope that he is prepared to stay within them.

I'd like to try and express as tactfully as I can a small point please. I'm not taking sides and I am not condoning any behaviour. I don't know the person involved or have any knowledge of his character. There could be many reasons why he has resorted to violence. It could be a lapse, a moment where he has lost control. It could be that he has grown up in a different culture. It could be he's simply not prepared to restrain himself and is a controlling personality. Such personalities are difficult to see. They behave differently when they are in the presence of others than when they are with the person they are in a relationship with. Both men and women are capable of such. One probability that I feel many of us overlook is it could also be a mental health issue.

As I’ve said I cannot and will not condone his behaviour. It was wrong and he should be provided with some boundaries and a knowledge of what the consequences will be if he steps over them. However, I’d like to suggest you consider if he has any mental health issues. For example he may have clinical depression or dysthymia (a form of depression that is difficult to diagnose as it comes and goes in severity). I’m sorry I can’t suggest how you identify this. I can’t say you have to either. I’m raising this for you to think of.

You have mentioned that the male employee is from another country. Again and with no knowledge of where he has come from or why he has come to the UK one possibility that could lead to mental health problems is that he has come from a war-torn environment and has witnessed “one event too many”. That’s just an example.

I grew up in a dysfunctional family home. I was physically and psychologically abused until I left home. My father grew up in the same environment and his father to. In the last 2 years I have been diagnosed with RLS and ADHD. In short and amongst the host of symptoms I have endured and those closest to me I have struggled with something called “emotional regulation”. In very simple terms my amygdala wasn’t suppressed, and my frontal cortex was not functioning very well. Our amygdala is the source of our flight, fight or freeze response. I was in a constant state of “readiness”, ready to fight, to freeze or to run. I had no control over that. The way I try to describe to others is by using diabetes as an example. Diabetes is a chemical imbalance. In simple terms so is ADHD.

I’ve taken the time to explain why I have responded to your question. I don’t want anyone to think the post is about me. I have used my own experience as an example of how mental health issues can and, I wish I didn’t have to say this, do have an impact on how people behave. Of course regrettably and disturbingly they also, have an impact on those around them and those closest will suffer the most. I have spoken about a taboo subject. Mental health is a huge cause of domestic abuse and violence.

I’m also aware of the need to point out that his partner may also need support. It’s entirely reasonable to assume she may have a mental health problem and be in need of, at the very least, medical support. Resources are out there.

I have no idea how any of the above dovetails into your legal responsibilities as “the employer”. However, your opening post inferred that you were also aware of the consequences for those who rely on his income and that apart from your legal commitments you have applied some moral thoughts to your response. It is in the latter that I have replied and I hope those reading on do not feel the need to take issue with my motive for speaking out or indeed for the content.

Take care

AiY(D)

[bluedonkey]

It sounds like a minefield, even more than usual in employee matters. Take paid for advice from a HR professional. It may end up being very cheap insurance.

[oldapple]

I can’t give any ‘employer’ advice but I think the employee’s partner would surely be relieved (and grateful to you) he is now on the local police radar. At the same time, the fact that he agreed to go with you to the police might indicate he is contrite.

[ReformedCharacter]

Scenario: small family-run business <10 employees, low staff turnover. Male employee age 50-55, the groundskeeper, is in most ways a dependable and useful worker but last week beat his partner (accusing her of cheating) on the premises in presence of another member of staff. This person is a foreign national, his partner local and they have three small children, he's likely to be deported if charged and is the main source of income for his family. Today at my instigation the employee and partner and I attended the local police station where the specialist family officer gave him a dressing down and a warning.

Question is, how stupid would I be not to dismiss this employee? Is it really dumb to give him a chance? If I dismiss him his immigration status will also be affected as we are sponsoring his visa application.

If I don't dismiss do we have a formal disciplinary in addition to the police involvement?

Help!!


GS

Did this happen in the UK?

RC

[GoSeigen]

AiY: All definitely on the radar and I am very much trying to balance a duty of care to our customers and other staff with similar duty to this employee and his family and a personal moral/ethical drive to help where I can and to make the world a better place in priority to narrow self-interest.

Sometimes you get so caught up in detail and history that you fail to see the big issue which is why I turned to this forum for input.

My thinking at present is that I will suspend the staff member temporarily, pending a meeting with him and a legal representative in which I will assess how keenly he wishes to remain working for us and how much he appreciates the gravity of what he has done and the impact on other people and the business (e.g. if such an incident reached the media it could reflect really badly on the business). Motivation is a worry because he has indicated to other staff members that "I will kill her if I have to because she is my girlfriend". I would want him to be thoroughly disabused of this idea if he is to continue working with us. He does have a tendency to fly off the handle on occasion especially when dealing with female staff, but I have no personal knowledge of any prior violent behaviour. So I'd want to explore his attitude to these issues with his advisor present.

Thoughts?

bluedonkey: Re. paid advice from and HR professional, advice noted, thanks. They've probably come across this sort of situation many times.

oldapple: I think you've read it accurately. He seems contrite, it is the excuses I worry about. Also, they have underlying relationship issues to sort because the female partner is not helping matters by straying (which seems to be a fact).

SD: Thanks, he acknowledged our role and help as you guessed, whether that is enough to keep him in check is what I am wrestling with.


GS

[GoSeigen]

Did this happen in the UK?

RC

Not the UK.

GS

[ReformedCharacter]

If I don't dismiss do we have a formal disciplinary in addition to the police involvement?

GS

Yes, definitely. You don't know what will happen or be disputed in the future, if you have a disciplinary then it should all be recorded with 'evidence'. Besides, police involvement is not a substitute for a workplace disciplinary.

RC

[GoSeigen]

Just discussing this situation with the better half, we both vaguely remember it was he who came to work with a black eye a couple of years ago having ostensibly been hit with a frying pan.


GS

[servodude]

Just discussing this situation with the better half, we both vaguely remember it was he who came to work with a black eye a couple of years ago having ostensibly been hit with a frying pan.

GS

To be fair.. I once jumped on a rake (from a 3' wall!) because I didn't believe the cartoons (and I was lucky not to fracture my eye socket)

I get the impression you're having to juggle cultures as much as personnel and business.

I think you're going to have to go with your gut and try to be absolutely confident about your reasoning, because there could well be awkward questions in the future (which isn't in itself a reason in my book to offload a problem as quickly as possible)
I think it's commendable that you're trying to do the right thing over the easy thing

I see understanding that someone has made a mistake as being very different from "tolerating" what they have done
- people can do "unacceptable" stuff out of ignorance; because they don't know any better
- and then some tw*ts think being able to afford a parking fund means you should just do it - so it can be hard to tell what's really going on

If he has actually learned his lesson - and only you can really judge - I think you will probably be fine to keep him on following a full dressing down, "cards are marked", official warning

The "optics" (grr hate that expression) of the situation will probably need local tuning if the situation is public knowledge
- but again I'd suggest being sure and confident of your own take on it rather than trying to portray some position (that's what I try and do if there's a moral issue/conflict with my work and I always figure I don't need those customers anyway )

[MyNameIsUrl]

If you do decide to keep him, then on a ‘hope for the best, plan for the worst’ basis you should anticipate a further transgression and prepare thoroughly for that eventuality, having ‘oven-ready’ disciplinary documents ready to be deployed to make the termination process as short as possible. I second the advice to use an HR professional adviser – get them lined up soon rather than waiting for the next crisis.

You mention he is a foreign national: I know I’m extrapolating a lot from that expression, but you should be aware there are some people who might claim prejudice on your part if you decide to terminate either now or in future.

(I agree with the discussion of the moral aspects above, but I didn’t want to repeat what’s been said, just add a couple of new points.)

[terminal7]

Did this happen in the UK?

RC

Not the UK.

GS

This may sound like the bleedin obvious - much of the above advice is Britain centric - if hypothetically this situation happened to be in France I would lawyer up given the French labour laws.

T7

[GoSeigen]

Thanks again everyone for very helpful comments.

You mention he is a foreign national: I know I’m extrapolating a lot from that expression, but you should be aware there are some people who might claim prejudice on your part if you decide to terminate either now or in future.

Ha, there are even more here who would say the opposite: that as a foreign national he has no right to be here, let alone breaking any laws! I'm already taking something of a risk letting him work for me while we resolve his undocumented status (and unfortunately the authorities are taking an extraordinarily long time to process the applications which creates stresses of their own to cope with).

GS