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Introducing the LemonFools Personal Finance Calculators

Am I a higher rate taxpayer

Practical Issues
DrBunsenHoneydew
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Re: Am I a higher rate taxpayer

#184222

Postby DrBunsenHoneydew » December 1st, 2018, 7:58 pm

XFool wrote:
It's easiest to see this in the case of the old DB company pensions. You were 'paid' a gross salary, a certain x percentage of which was immediately diverted into the company pension scheme. THEN, normal deductions to the remaining gross pay were made, NI, Income Tax... and you were paid a nett monthly salary. You did not receive that x% of gross pay (the pension fund did) so you were not charged income tax on it. It wasn't your income despite it originally appearing on your salary slip, you didn't actually receive it...

NI is normally payable on the whole salary including that x% DB pension contribution. Doubtless there is a tax dodge to avoid it.

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Re: Am I a higher rate taxpayer

#184223

Postby XFool » December 1st, 2018, 8:03 pm

DrBunsenHoneydew wrote:
XFool wrote:It's easiest to see this in the case of the old DB company pensions. You were 'paid' a gross salary, a certain x percentage of which was immediately diverted into the company pension scheme. THEN, normal deductions to the remaining gross pay were made, NI, Income Tax... and you were paid a nett monthly salary. You did not receive that x% of gross pay (the pension fund did) so you were not charged income tax on it. It wasn't your income despite it originally appearing on your salary slip, you didn't actually receive it...

NI is normally payable on the whole salary including that x% DB pension contribution. Doubtless there is a tax dodge to avoid it.

Interesting. I missed that, although how long has this been the case? My example was based on my experience long ago...

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Re: Am I a higher rate taxpayer

#184225

Postby scrumpyjack » December 1st, 2018, 8:06 pm

But NI isn't charged on the employer's contribution, so there is a possible tax 'dodge' to have a smaller salary but for the employer to bear the whole pension contribution.

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Re: Am I a higher rate taxpayer

#184226

Postby Lootman » December 1st, 2018, 8:21 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:But NI isn't charged on the employer's contribution, so there is a possible tax 'dodge' to have a smaller salary but for the employer to bear the whole pension contribution.

There was one place I worked where the high-paid staff were offered a "deferred compensation scheme". It was a bit on the down low in that we were told not to talk about it.

The basic idea was that 10% of your annual compensation was not paid out but rather put in a trust account and invested. Then there was some sort of arrangement behind the scenes so that our pension contributions were still made in full.

This saved us money at our highest income tax and NIC rates. And the funds could be withdrawn without penalty at any time after the year in which we left that employment.

No idea if companies still do that but it was a good deal, as long as you could afford to be without a tenth of your gross pay.

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Re: Am I a higher rate taxpayer

#184255

Postby spigot » December 2nd, 2018, 4:24 am

XFool wrote:
spigot wrote:
XFool wrote:This is a pet 'thing' with me too, despite it certainly being of no practical significance to me now.

I can sympathise with the sentiment that when making a pension contribution HMRC are only letting you keep your own money when granting tax relief.

No, that's really not the way I see it.

Firstly, the HMRC are not "letting you keep your own money" (IMO). Rather, they are simply not charging you income tax on income that you haven't received. Quite right too! e.g. I'm currently not paying any income tax on Fred the Shred's income, due to my adopting the crafty tax dodge of not being Fred the Shred... :)

It's easiest to see this in the case of the old DB company pensions. You were 'paid' a gross salary, a certain x percentage of which was immediately diverted into the company pension scheme. THEN, normal deductions to the remaining gross pay were made, NI, Income Tax... and you were paid a nett monthly salary. You did not receive that x% of gross pay (the pension fund did) so you were not charged income tax on it. It wasn't your income despite it originally appearing on your salary slip, you didn't actually receive it...

spigot wrote:However it doesn't seem fair that a 20% taxpayer pays £800 to make a £1000 contribution while a 40% taxpayer only pays £600.

No. Rather, the 20% tax payer was not charged 20% tax on £1000 they didn't actually receive as income. The 40% tax payer was not charged 40% tax on £1000 they didn't actually receive as income. It's the same thing, If you think about it. Much the same as if I don't pay 0.001% income tax on £1000 I don't actually receive as income, or my not paying 1000% income tax on £1000 I don't actually receive as income...


XFool wrote:No. Rather, the 20% tax payer was not charged 20% tax on £1000 they didn't actually receive as income. The 40% tax payer was not charged 40% tax on £1000 they didn't actually receive as income.


Sorry XFool I don't get you point. The £1000 gross contributor assuming they had earnings greater than their total gross contributions paid less than £1000 to fund this contribution. I fail to see the relevance that they cannot receive any benefit immediately from this pension contribution rather than an enhanced monthly pay packet as a reason to dispute that the taxman enhances any pension contributions. The higher the marginal rate the greater the enhancement. It's late, perhaps I'm missing something?

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Re: Am I a higher rate taxpayer

#184306

Postby XFool » December 2nd, 2018, 11:45 am

spigot wrote:
XFool wrote:No. Rather, the 20% tax payer was not charged 20% tax on £1000 they didn't actually receive as income. The 40% tax payer was not charged 40% tax on £1000 they didn't actually receive as income.

Sorry XFool I don't get you point. The £1000 gross contributor assuming they had earnings greater than their total gross contributions paid less than £1000 to fund this contribution.

I can see that!

FWIW, I reckon I'm on a losing wicket here - if I had to bet I'd bet your view is, nowadays, the majority opinion. IMO it is one of the outcomes of all the 'reforms' in pensions that have taken place over recent years. The original 'pure' idea of what a pension is and how it ought to sensibly operate has been lost along the way leading, in my view, to increasingly distorted thinking on the subject. Could be I'm just old fashioned... ;)

To explain again: In simple terms, £1000 paid into a pension scheme is £1000 paid into a pension scheme, by anybody. It makes no difference if the person is a BR or HR taxpayer - £1000 pounds is £1000 - because such pension money is not taxed as income.

In the particular case of a personal pension, where a person pays such money into a pension, the money they pay is from their own NETT earnings (unlike a company pension scheme). That is they HAVE already had income tax deducted. Therefore where they then pay it into a pension scheme - rather that buying a new TV, spending it on a holiday, of saving it in a bank account etc, the tax they have previously paid is refunded. If a BR taxpayer they get the BR tax refunded. If a HR taxpayer they get the HR tax refunded. It ends up being £1000 (tax free) in both cases.

spigot wrote: I fail to see the relevance that they cannot receive any benefit immediately from this pension contribution rather than an enhanced monthly pay packet as a reason to dispute that the taxman enhances any pension contributions. The higher the marginal rate the greater the enhancement. It's late, perhaps I'm missing something?

The tax man isn't enhancing the pension contribution, they are simply ensuring it is tax free - which it is to everyone contributing to a pension.

Why? Well, because:

1. Them's the rules!
2. If diverted into a pension it isn't current income. You can't buy a telly with it etc.
3. A quid pro quo for saving into a (non state) pension and thus helping take a future burden off future taxpayers.

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Re: Am I a higher rate taxpayer

#184327

Postby puffster » December 2nd, 2018, 12:56 pm

DrBunsenHoneydew wrote:NI is normally payable on the whole salary including that x% DB pension contribution. Doubtless there is a tax dodge to avoid it.

Salary sacrifice allows the individual and employer to pay less NI.

Regards, Puffster

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Re: Am I a higher rate taxpayer

#184411

Postby spigot » December 3rd, 2018, 2:30 am

XFool wrote:To explain again: In simple terms, £1000 paid into a pension scheme is £1000 paid into a pension scheme, by anybody. It makes no difference if the person is a BR or HR taxpayer - £1000 pounds is £1000 - because such pension money is not taxed as income.

In the particular case of a personal pension, where a person pays such money into a pension, the money they pay is from their own NETT earnings (unlike a company pension scheme). That is they HAVE already had income tax deducted. Therefore where they then pay it into a pension scheme - rather that buying a new TV, spending it on a holiday, of saving it in a bank account etc, the tax they have previously paid is refunded. If a BR taxpayer they get the BR tax refunded. If a HR taxpayer they get the HR tax refunded. It ends up being £1000 (tax free) in both cases.


The point is though XFool that the HR taxpayer gets a refund of £400 on a gross contribution of £1000 while the BR taxpayer gets £200. The net cost varies. I'm not arguing that this is necessarily unfair. ( Yes I know I said previously it seems unfair). :)

spigot wrote: I fail to see the relevance that they cannot receive any benefit immediately from this pension contribution rather than an enhanced monthly pay packet as a reason to dispute that the taxman enhances any pension contributions. The higher the marginal rate the greater the enhancement. It's late, perhaps I'm missing something?

XFool wrote:The tax man isn't enhancing the pension contribution, they are simply ensuring it is tax free - which it is to everyone contributing to a pension.

Why? Well, because:

1. Them's the rules!
2. If diverted into a pension it isn't current income. You can't buy a telly with it etc.
3. A quid pro quo for saving into a (non state) pension and thus helping take a future burden off future taxpayers.


Talking of tellys let's suppose our HR and BR taxpayers want to buy a very nice £1000 telly as well as make a £1000 pension contribution and consider the gross earnings each has to make, ignoring NI.


HR Telly £1666.66 Pension £600
BR Telly £1250 Pension £800

Given Hammond's comments about "eye watering cost" of tax relief on pension contributions the writing is on the wall for the future of quite generous tax relief on contributions, The £3600 gross contribution for non taxpayers hasn't been revised for years. Chancellors just cannot resist meddling with pensions.

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Re: Am I a higher rate taxpayer

#184569

Postby SteelCamel » December 3rd, 2018, 8:22 pm

spigot wrote:Talking of tellys let's suppose our HR and BR taxpayers want to buy a very nice £1000 telly as well as make a £1000 pension contribution and consider the gross earnings each has to make, ignoring NI.


HR Telly £1666.66 Pension £600
BR Telly £1250 Pension £800

Given Hammond's comments about "eye watering cost" of tax relief on pension contributions the writing is on the wall for the future of quite generous tax relief on contributions, The £3600 gross contribution for non taxpayers hasn't been revised for years. Chancellors just cannot resist meddling with pensions.


No, you're double counting the tax relief. The correct gross figures are:

HR Telly £1666.66 Pension £1000
BR Telly £1250 Pension £1000

The net figures are:
HR Telly £1000 Pension £600
BR Telly £1000 Pension £800

The HR taxpayer earns £1000, pays £400 in tax, and gets £400 in tax relief. The BR taxpayer earns £1000, pays £200 in tax, and gets £200 in tax relief. Either way they have to earn £1000 gross to end up with £1000 in their pension.

The figures for the telly are correct (bar rounding), so if they want both the telly and pension contribution the HR taxpayer needs to earn £2666.67 and the BR taxpayer £2250 before tax, or £1600 (HR) and £1800 (BR) from their after-tax income.

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Re: Am I a higher rate taxpayer

#184690

Postby spigot » December 4th, 2018, 1:12 pm

SteelCamel wrote:
No, you're double counting the tax relief. The correct gross figures are:

HR Telly £1666.66 Pension £1000
BR Telly £1250 Pension £1000

The net figures are:
HR Telly £1000 Pension £600
BR Telly £1000 Pension £800

The HR taxpayer earns £1000, pays £400 in tax, and gets £400 in tax relief. The BR taxpayer earns £1000, pays £200 in tax, and gets £200 in tax relief. Either way they have to earn £1000 gross to end up with £1000 in their pension.

The figures for the telly are correct (bar rounding), so if they want both the telly and pension contribution the HR taxpayer needs to earn £2666.67 and the BR taxpayer £2250 before tax, or £1600 (HR) and £1800 (BR) from their after-tax income.


You're correct of course SteelCamel. The point I was trying to make, and failed :D , was that spending disposal income on a pension contribution a HR taxpayer had an advantage over a BR taxpayer and the reverse is true when spending on goods and services from earned income where tax relief is not available. I'm not saying this is unfair.

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Re: Am I a higher rate taxpayer

#184729

Postby roguedaemon » December 4th, 2018, 4:44 pm

I'm very late to this, but let me try answering the original question. (Which is horrendously complicated, by the way. The new allowances / reliefs interact in ways that can't have been thought through. A clean-up in the law is really needed here.)

Bouleversee wrote:Say someone's pension/earnings/profit (which I presume means from a business rather than share dealings) is £38,500, interest is £2,700, dividends £7,200, charitable donations £300 * and the personal allowance is £11,500. I presume the £300 and £11,500 are taken from the £38,500, leaving £26,700, taxable at 20% = £5340

leaving £6,800 of the b.r. band which is £33,500

£500 rather than £1000 is then deducted from interest of £2700, leaving £2,200, taxable @ 20% =
leaving £4,600 of b.r. band
or is it taxable at 40%?

Dividends were £7200 minus £5k allowance = £2,200 taxable at ??? 7.5%, 20% or 32.5% ???

Perhaps someone whose brain isn't as decrepit as mine could fill in the gaps.

*If anyone has the answer about donations being able to be set back into the previous year, I should be very grateful.


OK, so the gross taxable income consists of:
interest: £2,700
dividends: £7,200
all other kinds (pensions/earnings/etc): £38,500

Which is a total of £48,400. After deducting the personal allowance (£11,500) from that (skipping, for the moment, the question of which kind of income to deduct it from), that leaves £36,900.

The basic rate band is £33,500, plus a £300 extension for gift aid.

To be precise, if you have paid £240 directly to charities under gift aid, then they will claim £60 from HMRC (representing basic rate tax, since £60 is 20% of the total £300 which they end up receiving), and your basic rate band is extended by £300. What you put on the tax return is the amount you paid the charities directly (£240). But if you meant that £300 was paid directly to charities, then the basic rate would be extended by £375. For this example, I'll stick with the basic rate being extended by £300.

You *can* carry back donations made in this tax year to 2017-18, provided that they are made before you submit your tax return (and before the 31 january 2019 deadline for submitting the tax return online). That goes in a different box on the return.

So ... taxable income after allowances (£36,900) is more than the extended basic rate band (£33,800). This means that the "personal savings allowance" is £500, not £1,000. This would be changed if the basic rate were extended by another £3,100. (Which is not to imply it's worth doing.)

What kind of income should the personal allowance be set against? Whatever method gives the lowest total tax due. Which is not always obvious.

Usually, it's best to set it against "other" income (rather than interest or dividends), so let's start by trying it that way. That would leave the following income as taxable:
interest: £2,700
dividends: £7,200
all other kinds: £27,000

After using the personal allowance, there is no further choice about which type of income to take next. We must take it in the "order of taxation", which is "other" income first, then interest, then dividends.

So we have £27,000 of "other" income, all falling within the basic rate band, taxed at 20%, which is £5,400 in tax. There is still £6,800 of the basic rate to come.

Next, we have £2,700 of interest. Although the £500 "personal savings allowance" applies to the first £500 of this, the whole £2,700 of interest still uses up part of the basic rate band. So the tax due is 20% of £2,200, which is £440. And only £4,100 of the basic rate is left over.

Finally, we have £7,200 of dividends. The first £4,100 of this is within the basic rate band, the remaining £3,100 within the higher rate band. The £5,000 "dividend allowance" applies to the first £5,000 of dividends; frustratingly, that means it applies to the £4,100 of dividends in within basic rate and to the first £900 within higher rate, which leaves the last £2,200 of dividends within higher rate taxable at 32.5%, which comes tax of £715.

Total tax due is £5,400 + £440 + £715 = £6,555.

However, paying higher rate tax on £2,200 of dividends can be circumvented by setting part of the personal allowance against dividends. A better way to allocate the personal allowance is against £2,200 of dividends and £9,300 of "other" income. That way, the remaining taxable income is:
interest: £2,700
dividends: £5,000
all other kinds: £29,200

The tax on "other" income is now 20% of £29,200, which comes to £5,840. After this, there is £4,600 of the basic rate band to come.

The tax on interest is unchanged, at £440. And after interest, only £1,900 of the basic rate band is left over.

And there is only £5,000 dividends to consider. £1,900 of this is within basic rate, and £3,100 within higher rate. But it is all covered by the £5,000 "dividend allowance", so no tax is due on dividends.

Total tax is now £5,840 + £440 = £6,280. (Which is £275 less than at the first attempt. In effect, we have got out of paying 32.5% higher rate tax on £2,200 of dividends, in exchange for paying 20% basic rate tax on £2,200 of "other" income; a net saving of 12.5% of £2,200.)

I hope I've made explained that OK. But it is ridiculous that the calculation has to be this complicated.

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Re: Am I a higher rate taxpayer

#184732

Postby Lootman » December 4th, 2018, 4:55 pm

roguedaemon wrote: it is ridiculous that the calculation has to be this complicated.

Yes it is, which is why I let my accountant do the sums. In fact I assume you are an accountant as that was a tour de force.

And your very first post here too. A warm welcome to TLF. We need you.

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Re: Am I a higher rate taxpayer

#184759

Postby Bouleversee » December 4th, 2018, 6:43 pm

Many thanks, RogueDaemon. I had rather given up hope of anyone actually answering my question. I had realised that the amount of tax one paid would depend on how the allowances were applied but, not having been over the basic rate band before, I did not know how they would be applied and assumed that happened as dictated by set rules. I had hoped that HMRC's policy was to use the allowances in the way most advantageous to each taxpayer so that they paid the minimum rather than the maximum possible but your reply seems to be suggesting that the individual has some choice in how the allowances should be used. Is that what you really meant? Surely not? I thought we just had to fill in the boxes and HMRC did all the rest and then told us what they had done. I should be grateful if you would clarify this and I will then apply the principle to my actual sources of income and see how much, if any, tax I will have to pay for last year. Actually, I think they might owe me money as I have paid tax in advance.

Lootman may prefer to leave it all to an accountant but I think it is important to understand exactly h ow it all works so that one can arrange one's affairs accordingly, e.g. spending more, gifting more, bed-and-ISAing, getting the right mix of interest and dividends, paying others to do work rather than killing oneself (says she, after slogging her guts out in the garden all day) . My income this year will be different from last year's (much less interest) and next year's different again (fewer dividends), but there is still much to be done and it all takes longer than the time available. And the one thing one can never know is how long one will live and how much will be needed (especially with a large component of income being fixed for ever more) to cover care home fees or pay for live in help.

I wonder how many of you who agree that it is all too complicated have complained to your MP who is bound to pass it on to the Chancellor.

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Re: Am I a higher rate taxpayer

#184761

Postby Lootman » December 4th, 2018, 6:54 pm

Bouleversee wrote:Lootman may prefer to leave it all to an accountant but I think it is important to understand exactly how it all works so that one can arrange one's affairs accordingly, e.g. spending more, gifting more, bed-and-ISAing, getting the right mix of interest and dividends, paying others to do work rather than killing oneself

Yes, you are quite correct, and I'd like more clarity so I can decide how much to Gift-Aid this year. It's just that when I start doing these sums I also start losing the will to live.

My accountant is quite helpful in that he will answer questions during the year, as issues like those you cited arise.

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Re: Am I a higher rate taxpayer

#184782

Postby Bouleversee » December 4th, 2018, 9:22 pm

Lootman wrote:
Bouleversee wrote:Lootman may prefer to leave it all to an accountant but I think it is important to understand exactly how it all works so that one can arrange one's affairs accordingly, e.g. spending more, gifting more, bed-and-ISAing, getting the right mix of interest and dividends, paying others to do work rather than killing oneself

Yes, you are quite correct, and I'd like more clarity so I can decide how much to Gift-Aid this year. It's just that when I start doing these sums I also start losing the will to live.

My accountant is quite helpful in that he will answer questions during the year, as issues like those you cited arise.


That's great, so perhaps you could ask him if we don't hear from Rogue Daemon again and share the info. with all of us on here before we ALL lose the will to live, something I do with increasing frequency and one of these days may not find again.

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Re: Am I a higher rate taxpayer

#184794

Postby Charlottesquare » December 4th, 2018, 11:53 pm

Calculation Result for 2017-18
Name: Mrs Lemon Fool Bouleversee
Income received (before tax taken off)

Interest from UK banks, building societies and securities etc £2,700.00
Dividends from UK companies £7,200.00
UK pensions and state benefits £38,500.00
Total income received £48,400.00

minus

minus Personal Allowance £(11,500.00)
Total £11,500.00

Total income on which tax is due £36,900.00

How I have worked out your Income Tax
The UK rates and thresholds apply to savings and dividends income
Your basic rate limit has been increased by £375.00 to £33,875.00 for Gift Aid payments. This reduces the amount of income charged to higher rates of tax.

Pay, pensions, profit etc. (UK rate for England, Wales and Northern Ireland)
Basic rate £31,400.00 x 20% = £6,280.00

Savings interest from banks or building societies, securities etc.
Starting rate £0 x 0% = £0
Nil rate £500.00 x 0% = £0

Dividends from companies etc.
Basic rate at nil rate £1,975.00 x 0% = £0
Higher rate at nil rate £3,025.00 x 0% = £0
Total income on which tax has been charged £36,900.00

Income Tax due £6,280.00

Here is what TaxCalc computes re 2017/2018 based on the figures you supplied earlier. Obviously the pension likely has tax taken off so the actual amount due will be less. I have no checked it is correct but suspect it is , sometimes the software needs updates but we have had a few since April so expect the gremlins have been ironed out. Note if Gift Aid payment £300 paid it increases basic rate band by £375 as allows for the 20% uplift the charity gets. If you want different numbers please ask (as long as not too many) and I will post into dummy client and export to word to post here.

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Re: Am I a higher rate taxpayer

#184797

Postby roguedaemon » December 5th, 2018, 12:37 am

Bouleversee wrote:I had hoped that HMRC's policy was to use the allowances in the way most advantageous to each taxpayer so that they paid the minimum rather than the maximum possible but your reply seems to be suggesting that the individual has some choice in how the allowances should be used. Is that what you really meant? Surely not? I thought we just had to fill in the boxes and HMRC did all the rest and then told us what they had done.


Perhaps I expressed it badly. The taxpayer doesn't need to tell HMRC how to apply the allowances; they are indeed supposed to do it all automatically, according to the rules, after we fill in the boxes. What I went through was for the purpose of understanding how it should work (and to inform decisions such as whether to make extra gift aid donations).

The rule for the personal allowance is that it should be applied in the most favourable way to the taxpayer. So it can be set against interest, or dividends, or other income, or any mixture of the three.

The other allowances discussed have less favourable rules. E.g. the dividend allowance is set against the lowest £5,000 of taxable dividends, even if those dividends are within the basic rate band (so the taxpayer only saves 7.5% tax on them) and there are other dividends within higher rate (on which 32.5% tax is being paid).

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Re: Am I a higher rate taxpayer

#184798

Postby roguedaemon » December 5th, 2018, 12:47 am

Lootman wrote:In fact I assume you are an accountant as that was a tour de force.


Thank you. I'm a computer programmer, not an accountant.

I suppose I could create a web page that would let you enter figures and would generate a calculation and explanation similar to the one in my first post. And would let you try what difference it would make if you do things such as making extra gift aid donations, or pension contributions.

From Charlottesquare's post, TaxCalc appears to do all that, though not via a (public) web page.

Charlottesquare
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Re: Am I a higher rate taxpayer

#184891

Postby Charlottesquare » December 5th, 2018, 2:38 pm

You are correct, TaxCalc charge me for the software. Rather annoyingly they provide a more detailed analysis re allowance allocation, as you explained in your post, but whilst i can get it into Word to post here when I try it formats it all over the place and figures do not align with column headings to make it useful.

Perhaps if i were more literate re computers I will be able to get that to also post but suspect will be awaiting my son's return from abroad so that he can show me what to do (he is a software developer)

However if the OP does want an alternative done I can very quickly pop the numbers into the software, print SA302 to word and paste the result if it helps her.

The great advantage of the software is I can do a basic tax return in sub 10 minutes and even a return for a sole trader, with accounts figures, links through from the associated accounts production software;- one of the reasons basic tax compliance fees from accountants will keep dropping in price, in fact these days for a basic tax return client the time re MLR and client set up is often far longer than the time taken to actually complete the return.

Bouleversee
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Re: Am I a higher rate taxpayer

#185130

Postby Bouleversee » December 6th, 2018, 4:19 pm

Many thanks (albeit belated) to roguedaemon and Charlottesquare for going to so much trouble to explain these complexities and produce a demo which I will now, having had a long enough period today without interruption for once to read it several times and I think understood it all, try to apply to my actual figures. I have to admit that I now find it difficult to get my brain round such things, however, and I may accept C's offer to substitute my actual figures to check that I have got it right. On my assessment last year, "other income" was only £62 (may have been PIDS and/or foreign divs) and certainly didn't apply to annuities and pension but for this exercise I will apply that heading to the latter.

Without R's explanation, I would not have known what they did to arrive at the tax due. I don't think I will have to pay much more than already deducted from annuities, PIDs and foreign. Hopefully, I will avoid HRT for that year but of course the £5k allowance has been reduced to £2k for the current year so I'll have to start all over again. I have a horrible feeling I will get caught this time as I haven't had time to do enough evasive action.


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