The Lemon Fool

Thanks, PD. All I needed to see, though I can't say I understood about negative spending; more weasel words. However, Supreme Two is quite right to ask about it being debated. One would have thought it would have to be. I shall ask the chap at the Law Society I have exchanged the odd email with (and I do know one shouldn't end a sentence with a preposition).

I signed the petition yesterday..very disappointed that less than 2000 signatures!

This petition, worded in the way I think is more apt, has only 15 votes:

Allow the House of Commons as a whole to debate increased probate fees
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/240925

monabri wrote:I signed the petition yesterday..very disappointed that less than 2000 signatures!

Yes, I noticed that and thought perhaps it had only just started, somewhat late in the day. I just clicked on it again and it says 1472 which I think is much the same as yesterday, which is odd as I forwarded the link to several people who were blissfully unaware of the increases and I know signed and I am sure there must have been several as a result of ST's post.

I forwarded PD's extracts to my MP and asked her if there would now be a debate.

PinkDalek wrote:This petition, worded in the way I think is more apt, has only 15 votes:

Allow the House of Commons as a whole to debate increased probate fees
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/240925

Except that the wording is incorrect in that the govt. have now acknowledged that it is a tax on capital so no longer appropriate.

Bouleversee wrote:

PinkDalek wrote:This petition, worded in the way I think is more apt, has only 15 votes:

Allow the House of Commons as a whole to debate increased probate fees
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/240925

Except that the wording is incorrect in that the govt. have now acknowledged that it is a tax on capital so no longer appropriate.

I’m not so sure a classification is the same as an acceptance of the issue. Will be interesting to see what your M.P. responds.

PinkDalek wrote:

Bouleversee wrote:

PinkDalek wrote:This petition, worded in the way I think is more apt, has only 15 votes:

Allow the House of Commons as a whole to debate increased probate fees
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/240925

Except that the wording is incorrect in that the govt. have now acknowledged that it is a tax on capital so no longer appropriate.

I’m not so sure a classification is the same as an acceptance of the issue. Will be interesting to see what your M.P. responds.

It will indeed, if I get one; also the Law Society chap. I admit I make the mistake of expecting things to be logical which regrettably is not always the case. I find it difficult to come up with a suitable wording for the motion in these circumstances. What would you suggest?

I received a letter from my MP this morning, saying she had raised my concerns, as well as her own, with the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State.
"While she listened intently to what I had to say, I am afraid I do not know whether the points I raised will be addressed before the changes to probate fees comes into force in April. I hope improvements to the system are made before this date and I will keep you informed of any future update."

This follows previous corres. on the subject when it first came up some time ago which had elicited an unsatisfactory response from said Under Secy. via my MP to which I responded.

I also forwarded to my MP the extract Supreme Two supplied re the probability of this being classified as tax and she is going to raise further queries in this connection.

Press reports seem to ignore that this has yet to be approved:-

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/prop ... obate-fees
While the changes are being considered there is a temporary process in place for applying for probate.

Still time to lobby your MP.

supremetwo wrote:Press reports seem to ignore that this has yet to be approved:-

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/prop ... obate-fees
While the changes are being considered there is a temporary process in place for applying for probate.

Still time to lobby your MP.

As you know, I have been doing that. A few days ago I received a response from her office saying the following:

"As I under (sic) it, as the Non-Contentious Probate (Fees) Order 2018 is an affirmative statutory instrument, it must get approval from both the House of Commons and the House of Lords before it can come in to force.

I would therefore expect it to be debated in the House of Commons before the end of April.

I will let you know if I learn of a date for approval."

That conflicts with what the Law Society says, which is that it will only be voted on if someone objects, which is, however, quite likely, especially since the obr reference to the likelihood of its being treated as a tax and therefore not appropriate for a statutory instrument but even then it will not be debated if it is a statutory instrument.

Edited by Bouleversee as regards Law Soc. statement

On a practical note, it is now possible to pay the probate fee by debit ot credit card over the telephone, which obtains a payment referemce to write on the form. I do not know whether this is effective for actually paying the current fee even if you then submit the forms after the new fees become effective, but if you know the probate value is going to be above £50000 there doesn't seem to be anything to lose.

There are now separate forms for Probate proper and Letters of Administration, and in the case of at least the latter there is no longer any need to swear an oath, so you can choose any of the ten English/Welsh registries if in England/Wales. I chose to pay a more distant registry because my closest always seemed to be busy (each call was to a recorded message, but with no option to wait or get a callback). Just make sure you send the forms to the same registry as you made the payment to!

Notwithanding all that, the propsed fee structure is an abomination.

I received an email from my MP's assistant apologising for misinforming me; the Law Society was correct and as a statutory instrument it won't be debated in the House of Commons. She also provided further information, including the fact that it had already been debated in the Lords and approved by them despite several members raising objections. No date has yet been set for the draft affirmative instrument to be put before the Commons for approval. Hopefully, if sufficient objections are received from the public it will be quietly dropped, as last time. If it is put to the HoC for approval and any member objects to the instrument being approved, the vote to approve it is deferred until the following Wednesday when MPs vote using paper forms to indicate whether they approve or disapprove the instrument. Like with most other decisions the House takes, you need a simple majority (over 50% of MPs who have taken part in the vote) in order to win, so the Government would need a majority of MPs in the House of Commons to vote to approve the instrument." So definitely worth writing to your MP to express your concerns if you have not already done so.

This is the latest from the Law Society Gazette - https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/law/new-pr ... 84.article

It's mildly comforting that statutory instruments don't normally come into force until 21 days after they're made, which should provide enough time to beat the deadline.

One interesting point I saw flagged up recently is that an executor could be at risk of being sued by the beneficiaries for wasting the additional fee if he could have beaten the deadline but failed to do so.

DrBunsenHoneydew wrote:As you say, no Probate, but Scotland has a separate fee schedule for Confirmation.
Value of estate not exceeding:
£50,000 - No fee
£50,000.01 to £250,000 - £256
Exceeding £250,000 - £512
Plus £8 for Certificate.

Comforting for Scots - but given the higher income tax rates, and lower income tax boundaries implemented by the SNP, I can only think that leaving the Confirmation rates as above has been a fortunate oversight (and long may it continue).

It seems that Brexit discussions have stopped the Probate tax going through so far, and with Labour votiing against it the Government have no confidence in winning a vote. So keep on with those letters.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/ ... of-commons

Thanks for that link. I thought the MoJ's comment was pathetic.

Well, something good has resulted from Brexit.....(the rest is a "bag of cack", though)!

monabri wrote:...

You may wish to update this Topic, with what you've written elsewhere (although others might already know, I didn't).

Can anyone find the detail at .Gov.UK itself?

Looks like the Death Tax has died..

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tax/inherit ... death-tax/

"The Ministry of Justice (MoJ) has bowed to pressure and abandoned its plan for a dramatic increase in probate fees"

". It would have increased the cost of applying for a grant of probate from the current £215, or £155 for solicitors, to £6,000 for the largest estates – a difference of 3,770pc."

"main criticism of the proposed fee increase was that it was unfair and not proportional. The cost of administering a grant of probate is the same regardless of the size of an estate."

"Members of the House of Lords said the Government was abusing its power and even the Labour party said it would oppose the plans. " (my bold!)