Has anyone used cgtcalculator.com?

[Cortana]

I'm belatedly working out my tax for the 15-16 tax year. I've definetly made a gain but I've a lot of trades (over 120 in just a handful of shares) to try and reconcile. Has anyone used cgtcalculator.com website? It claims to do the share matching thing and calculate your gain or loss. Will it do the job or should I purchase some software? TIA

[staffordian]

I'm pretty sure that was the site I used a couple of years ago when I had to calculate CGT.

As well as some shares I'd held long term, I'd also traded a range of shares, buying and selling the same share several times, often in the course of just a few days, and to complicate matters, some of these shares were the same as held long term.

The calculator produced a detailed report, transaction by transaction, with the calculations, some of which I checked manually, and all seemed in order.

It was essential to produce the data in the required format, but I'd got most of it in a spreadsheet anyway, so it was mainly a matter of copying and pasting it to a new one.

So yes, I'd give it a try rather than buy software, especially of its more or less a one off need.

Staffordian

[staffordian]

Edit to above, it was cgtcalculator.com I used, I've just looked up the output which the site generated and the top line confirms it.

Staffordian

[saechunu]

Yes, I've used it for years, though don't really have much need now. Some time ago I used to trade very actively so had many, many trades, and cgtcalculator.com saved me (and/or my accountant) rather a lot of work.

If it also saves you a lot of work, consider sending the chap behind it, Douglas, a Paypal donation.

[Cortana]

Thanks for the feedback guys. That's my job for rest of Sunday sorted.

[Gengulphus]

In case it's of interest, there's another free CGT calculator besides http://www.cgtcalculator.com at http://www.stonebanks.co.uk. Not an endorsement of either - I've only played with both of them in the past, not used them seriously. But it does mean that there's the option of using them both on your data and seeing whether they agree - if they do, you can be more confident that their common answer is correct; if not, you can look for the detailed point at which they disagree...

Incidentally, the reason why I haven't used them seriously is that before I encountered them, I'd already put together a 'home brew' spreadsheet to do the job for myself, and used it for some years - long enough for me to be confident about it. And of course I'd developed that spreadsheet to handle every type of corporate action, etc, that I'd encountered, whereas the free calculators required a bit of a learning curve about how to present some of them in the input to get the correct results, and a few couldn't be done at all. So starting from where I was, the free calculators were more work for a less comprehensive solution - i.e. not a good bargain!

But for someone starting from scratch, they looked pretty good - they could do the bulk of the work, and if a few situations are beyond them, doing the calculations for them 'by hand' is probably the quickest and easiest solution.

And before anyone asks, no, I won't release my 'home brew' spreadsheet to others. It requires comprehensive knowledge of how it works to 'drive' it correctly, and while I've got that knowledge, imparting it to others would be too much work. Especially as I would almost certainly find myself side-tracked into improving it in the process, which would be even more work!

Gengulphus

[feinmann]

Well as I am starting from scratch, I will find this online calculator very useful; thanks OP. One very basic and potentially naive question though: if I elect to receive a dividend via a return of cash as capital (not income), how do I account for that handout in the cgtcalculator format?

[Gengulphus]

Well as I am starting from scratch, I will find this online calculator very useful; thanks OP. One very basic and potentially naive question though: if I elect to receive a dividend via a return of cash as capital (not income), how do I account for that handout in the cgtcalculator format?

Your question doesn't actually make sense as it stands, because a dividend is always income. But I think I know what you mean...

Nowadays, if the company gives the shareholder the choice of whether to receive a return of cash as a dividend or as a capital payment, it is taxed as dividend income regardless of which choice the shareholder makes. That rule came in at the start of the 2015/2016 tax year IIRC, and it has made it pointless for companies to offer such choices and incur the costs of collecting the shareholder choices (*). Unsurprisingly, companies have very largely given up offering them!

So I suspect you're talking about such choices made before the start of the 2015/2016 tax year. The answer for them is that you deal with it the same way as you would have dealt with the capital payment if the choice had not been made. Typically, it involves the company issuing you with a B share, which has effectively been split off from the Ordinary share, and then redeeming the B share for the capital payment - so you have to 'apportion' the original cost of your shares between the Ordinary shares and the B shares, then calculate the gain realised on the B shares (as the redemption payment minus their portion of the original cost), and carry the Ordinary shares forward with their portion of the original cost.

Or in some cases, you might be able to use the "small capital distribution" treatment - if so, you just take the capital payment off the original cost (if that doesn't drive it negative), or use part of the capital payment to drive the original cost down to zero and count the rest of it as a realised capital gain.

I should mention that using the dividend option also tended to have CGT consequences, because it also involved splitting off B shares (or C shares in some cases) and apportioning the original cost between them and the original shares, with the difference that instead of being redeemed, they paid a dividend and converted into worthless Deferred shares (which were eventually compulsorily redeemed by the company for effectively nothing). That redemption realised a capital loss - or the shareholder could make a negligible value claim to realise it earlier.

And I should also emphasise the "Typically" above - I've described some common cases, not given the correct treatment for all cases. To establish the correct treatment for a particular such corporate action with reasonable certainty, I would look at the company website for information about it - if nothing else, there will usually be a downloadable "shareholder circular" giving full details of the action, including reasonably detailed information about taxation.

Returning to the calculators, at least when I last looked at them (which as I've previously indicated is several years ago) they did not include facilities to apportion original costs. What one had to do instead was along the lines of:

1) Make all buys and sells before the action be of 'oldXYZ' rather than 'XYZ'.

2) Insert a fake sale of 'oldXYZ' on the date the B shares were split off, for the full number of shares at that time and their original cost (so there should be a zero gain/loss calculated for that sale).

3) Do the apportionment calculation oneself.

4) Insert fake buys of 'XYZ' and 'XYZB' for their portions of the original cost, also on the date the B shares were split off.

5) Insert a sale of the 'XYZB' shares on the date they are redeemed, for the amount they are redeemed for.

6) Leave buys and sells of 'XYZ' after the action unchanged - and if the company does it again, use a different name than 'oldXYZ' that time, e.g. 'oldXYZ2'.

Note I do not guarantee that this produces the right results in all possible cases. In particular, there are cases where I'm not at all sure I even know what the right results are, such as when shares are sold before the action and bought after it, with the buy within 30 days after the sale.

Or to express the above a lot more briefly, when I last looked at them the calculators couldn't really deal with corporate actions: you had to deal with them yourself and lie to the calculator to make it do the right thing for the rest of what happened to the holding. That involved you taking responsibility for knowing what the right treatment is and what the right lies are!

It also means that in general, the longer you tend to hold shares, the more likely they are to have had significant corporate actions while you held them and so the less likely it is that the calculators will simply produce the right answers on their own. I.e. the calculators are most useful for short-term 'traders' and less so for long-term 'investors' - which is another reason why I decided against using them myself.

(*) Possible exception: companies with significant numbers of shares held by people taxed elsewhere than the UK. If enough of them are taxed by countries that still recognise such shareholder choices as having a tax effect, there might still be a reason for a company to offer a choice... It would be quite unusual, though, if it happens at all. And no, I have no idea which (if any) countries do that!

Gengulphus

[BarrenFluffit]

The main work you need to do is getting the output from your broker into a format that it will process correctly. This might need some jigging. If your sufficiently organised you can keep one years working copy and add the transactions for the subsequent year.. Also print it off so you can see in future where the numbers came from.

[cvanes]

Once I have my information in the right format, cgtcalculator.com produces a comprehensive report of the CGT tax consequences for every tax year.
I can see that the INFO FOR TAX RETURN section contains all that is required for the "Capital gains summary" page (SA108) of a tax return - great.

My situation is that the "Computation Working Sheet (for straightforward calculations)" is not appropriate as I have a part disposal of a section 104 holding.

Should I copy the TRADE MATCHING INFORMATION for the tax year in question of the report and paste it into the "Any other information" (box 38) section?

In particular, is it sufficient to say that a sale matches a Section 104 holding without showing the workings of how the Section 104 holding was calculated?

Thanks

[PinkDalek]

...

My situation is that the "Computation Working Sheet (for straightforward calculations)" is not appropriate as I have a part disposal of a section 104 holding.

Should I copy the TRADE MATCHING INFORMATION for the tax year in question of the report and paste it into the "Any other information" (box 38) section?

In particular, is it sufficient to say that a sale matches a Section 104 holding without showing the workings of how the Section 104 holding was calculated?

Thanks

I don't use the cgtcalculator you mention so can't comment on the Trade matching information part but, rather than box 38, I use a self amended version of HMRC's Computation Working Sheet and attach the pdf to the Capital gains summary:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... 8-2016.pdf
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... s_2016.pdf [Page CGN 6]

Something along these lines:

CAPITAL GAINS TAX - Computation Working Sheet 1
[Taxpayer's name]
UTR [xxxxx/xxxxx]
Tax year 6 April 2016 to 5 April 2017

Computation Working Sheet – complete one sheet for each asset

Description of asset
Date of disposal

Disposal/sale proceeds
or market value
Incidental costs of disposal/sale
Net disposal proceeds

Date of acquisition [For instance December 1978, rebased to 31 March 1982,
plus later rights issues]


Cost or 31 March 1982 value - s104 pool brought forward
Attributable cost [Showing my calculations]
Cost or 31 March 1982 value - s104 pool carried forward

Attributable cost

Gain or loss


I don't bother to tell them how I arrived at the s104 pool brought forward but have back-up records should they be needed.

It is self assessment after all, apparently!

[cvanes]

Thanks PD,

Where you have:

Attributable cost [Showing my calculations]

Is that similar to the example from http://www.cgtcalculator.com/example.htm ?

TAX_YEAR 12-13

1. SELL: 5000 BP. on 24/12/2012 at £4.336 gives LOSS of £5,284.00
Matches with:
BUY: SECTION 104 HOLDING. 5000 BP. shares of 7000 bought at average price of £5.39063
CALCULATION: Loss = £5,284.00 = ( 5000 * 4.336 - 10.00 )
- ( 7000 * 5.39063 ) * ( 5000 / 7000 )

And I see you have added a running s104 total before and after which seems significant.

I didn't realise you could attach your own pdf file in your own format.

Thanks

[Lootman]

I didn't realise you could attach your own pdf file in your own format.

I believe that you can attach whatever you want, over and above what HMRC requires. I feel sure that PinkDalek can give impeccable reasons why he provides so much extra information. My accountant adds an appendix to my return which has basic information on each line item for gains and losses. It's much less information than PD's example. The one time I asked him why he appends this information he said that it can sometimes forestall a HMRC inquiry if they have additional information. That sounds plausible to me although I can't believe that HMRC looks at line item information in any detail unless they are already curious about you.

To the more general question, I am fortunate enough to have a broker that maintains cost basis information. It's accurate almost all of the time, but for some kinds of corporate action I need to keep a written note of how that affects the stored cost basis. The beauty of that is it requires only "exception" record keeping rather than maintenance of a record of all positions. What that in turn means is that it is sufficient for my purposes to use broker-supplied data, amended for those odd occasions where a corporate action changed the cost basis. And therefore, each tax year I only need to create a spreadsheet for realised positions. That is best done as trades happen so that, on April 6th, I'm ready to go.

I generally avoid re-purchases of positions within 30 days which also makes things a whole lot simpler and, as such, have no need of special software or calculators. And positions that are "messy" in tax terms go into tax-sheltered accounts anyway.

The ideal situation that we should aim for is what they have in the US, where your broker can create the relevant tax forms directly from their raw data. And since they also submit all that gain and loss information to the tax authorities, the entire reporting of gains and losses becomes trivial. absent a few exceptional situations.

[PinkDalek]

Thanks PD,

Where you have:

Attributable cost [Showing my calculations]

Is that similar to the example from http://www.cgtcalculator.com/example.htm ?

TAX_YEAR 12-13

1. SELL: 5000 BP. on 24/12/2012 at £4.336 gives LOSS of £5,284.00
Matches with:
BUY: SECTION 104 HOLDING. 5000 BP. shares of 7000 bought at average price of £5.39063
CALCULATION: Loss = £5,284.00 = ( 5000 * 4.336 - 10.00 )
- ( 7000 * 5.39063 ) * ( 5000 / 7000 )

That's probably similar but, for the attributable cost on a part disposal such as the one in the example, I put something like:

Cost or 31 March 1982 value - s104 pool brought forward £37,734
Attributable cost £37,734 X 5,000 / 7,000 = -£26,953
Cost or 31 March 1982 value - s104 pool carried forward £10,781

And I see you have added a running s104 total before and after which seems significant.

The s104 pool brought forward, for me, would be as at 6 April 2016 and the carried forward at 5 April 2017, as I don't trade the same holding more than once in the same tax year (normally).


Another poster mention the level of detail provided. I do it the way I do as it is as I have always done, at least since HMRC decided to provide their example CWS and, in my eyes, complies with their instructions "You must enclose your computations, including details of each gain or loss ..." and, hopefully, constitutes full disclosure. I'm very LTB&H and don't have many share disposals to return, so this might have some bearing on how I prepare the information for my Tax Returns.

I can't comment on what accountants submit nowadays, as I've never had the need to pay one to have anything to do with my Tax Returns. When we acted for others on their Corporation Tax returns, we went into far more detail than the CWS but then we were dealing with FTSE companies etc and more complicated disposals but I digress ... !

[cvanes]

I guess I am surprised that while some parts of self-assessment are very particular about what to include, for the CGT calculations the filer is only told, "You must send us your computations, valuations, specified claim forms and any Working Sheets with the ‘Capital Gains summary’ pages of your
tax return."

With an S104 holding the Working Sheet is not an option, so it seems to be up to each filer to come up with computations that seem right in their eyes.

I'm encouraged by Pink Dalek's comment:

I don't bother to tell them how I arrived at the s104 pool brought forward but have back-up records should they be needed.

I assume that HMRC have never been in touch for the additional records or you would have mentioned it.

It is self assessment after all, apparently!

Quite!

[Lootman]

I guess I am surprised that while some parts of self-assessment are very particular about what to include, for the CGT calculations the filer is only told, "You must send us your computations, valuations, specified claim forms and any Working Sheets with the ‘Capital Gains summary’ pages of your tax return."

With an S104 holding the Working Sheet is not an option, so it seems to be up to each filer to come up with computations that seem right in their eyes

That's the distinct impression I get too. (Bearing in mind that I am just noting what my accountant does with my data, rather than my own interpretation of what is needed). It helps that my gains and losses are all exchange-traded and I avoid the S104 complications. Basically the appendix my accountant provides just shows, per line item, date of disposal (but not date of acquisition, which is presumably no longer required since indexation went away), security identifier, net cost basis, net proceeds and taxable gain or loss.

I suspect year-on-year consistency is a smart idea. PinkDalek said "I do it the way I do as it is as I have always done" and it's possible that if you suddenly vary the detail you provide, someone might be suspicious.

[PinkDalek]

... (Bearing in mind that I am just noting what my accountant does with my data, rather than my own interpretation of what is needed). It helps that my gains and losses are all exchange-traded and I avoid the S104 complications. Basically the appendix my accountant provides just shows, per line item, date of disposal (but not date of acquisition, which is presumably no longer required since indexation went away), security identifier, net cost basis, net proceeds and taxable gain or loss. ...

It is likely your accountant uses some bought in software and, presumably, what they submit is acceptable to HMRC.

There are a few (minor) differences in what you report they state, when compared with the HMRC straightforward non-compulsory version here https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... s_2016.pdf [Page CGN 6].

Such as:

1. HMRC do ask for Date of acquisition and, bearing in mind Taper Relief was abolished as long ago as 2008, I don't think they included the request for such a date by mistake. It doesn't say anything as useful as date of original acquisition so that's why, in the example I gave, I included [For instance December 1978, rebased to 31 March 1982,
plus later rights issues].

The Computation Working Sheet is for all straightforward disposals (including property), perhaps they'd like the dates to enable them to cross-check (if and when they do) against other matters, such as, for instance, prior holdover relief claims or whatever they hold in their extensive [expletive deleted]. I imagine what your accountant would return in more complicated circumstances would include the additional detail.

2. HMRC ask for gross Disposal/sale proceeds or market value if appropriate rather than net proceeds. They also ask for "Incidental costs of disposal/sale" and "Incidental costs of acquisition". I must admit I don't show the latter separately, as they are included in my pool costs, but I do disclose the former.


I'll probably continue as in the past but are you able to copy an example from the appendix to here, so we can take a look (obviously without the numbers), as if there's a simpler version possible I'm always happy to amend my method of record keeping.

More generally, it is a shame other Fools haven't joined the thread, as it might be of interest to hear what form of CGT computations they submit.

[Lootman]

are you able to copy an example from the appendix to here, so we can take a look (obviously without the numbers), as if there's a simpler version possible I'm always happy to amend my method of record keeping.

I was going to dig out my tax records soon for my "change of tax year" organisation so I'll take a look and see what I can do. It's only in paper form so I'd either need to scan and redact it, or mock up something similar. Happy to do so but it will take a little time.

Obviously the data that my accountant provides in the appendix is based on what I give him, which is a spreadsheet I compile annually. Looking now at that spreadsheet I see the following column headings:

Date of disposal
Security code
Security description
Number of shares (not sure that's needed but I record it anyway)
Net acquisition cost (adjusted for corporate actions)
Net proceeds
Realised gain or loss (obviously derived from the two items immediately above)

I would assume that if I was missing something that my accountant deems necessary by HMRC, that he would notify me to provide that extra data e.g. "date of acquisition" or the gross amounts and expenses. Since he doesn't ask for that, he is presumably satisfied that my data is sufficient in my case, but perhaps not in more complicated cases.

Or perhaps he knows that HMRC are happy as long as we can provide that data upon request. Items like the "date of acquisition" information wouldn't be easy for me to come up with as I'd have to data mine years' worth of trades, but I'd do it if I had to. It would be nice if the broker showed that for each position or lot, but they don't.

[PinkDalek]

I was going to dig out my tax records soon for my "change of tax year" organisation so I'll take a look and see what I can do. It's only in paper form so I'd either need to scan and redact it, or mock up something similar. Happy to do so but it will take a little time.

Obviously the data that my accountant provides in the appendix is based on what I give him, which is a spreadsheet I compile annually. Looking now at that spreadsheet I see the following column headings ...

Thanks for your reply and the summary. I don't think it worthwhile for you to go to the trouble of scanning and redacting from the paper form, as your explanation of what's returned to HMRC is clear.

When you supply Net acquisition cost (adjusted for corporate actions) that seems to be the same as a s104 pool brought forward.

In any event, I've only now delved a little deeper and find that HS284 Shares and Capital Gains Tax Guidance https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... s-tax-2015 leads to this Example 3:

https://whitehall-admin.publishing.serv ... _2015_.pdf

As far as I can see, that example forms the s104 pool on the original acquisition and includes the dealing costs of £150 including VAT within the pool figure of £4,150. Thus not separately disclosing the incidental costs of acquisition later on. The calculations of the gains or losses reflects the incidental costs of disposal, only, as a separate item (in addition to the attributable allowable costs).

If one can take that example as a CGT Calculation then it seems from there that one should be okay not to separately disclose the incidental costs of acquisition.

Similarly, if it is okay to start with a s104 pool brought forward, then the original dates of acquisition may not, indeed, be needed for the computation itself.

My original version, way up thread, did include some narrative about the dates of acquisition but I now doubt it was necessary. I'll probably continue doing that on that particular holding, as I merely copy one year to the next (and amend the figures and dates etc appropriately).

It looks like the only data you don't supply, which might be needed, are the gross proceeds and the incidental costs of disposal. It would be interesting if you asked your accountant if he would prefer to receive these (perhaps for 2017/2018 which you are shortly to commence).

Interesting discussion, thanks.

[helfordpirate]

FWIW I use Taxcalc (I think quite widely used by accountants) for my return, and while it barely mentions S104 pools in the actual software interface it does touch on it in the help screens. It suggests leaving the 'date of acquisition' blank or to put in the date of the most recent acquisition to the pool. I suppose 'most recent' makes sense as it flags up anyone who might have bought and sold on the same day!

I have always put the incidental cost of acquisition i.e. dealing fees, in the s104 pool as this seems the only way you can get a true blended net per unit/share base cost. I always show the incidental cost of disposal separately.

To date I have never been asked for more detail on the s104 pool either by HMRC or by my accountant (when I used one). I have a tab on my spreadsheet which maintains the s104 costs for each fund/etf - to date, as well as buy and sell, it has to take account of: excess reportable income on offshore funds, accumulated dividends, equalisation payments, corporate actions e.g. some unit trust conversions to Clean share classes and fund mergers, and some 'deemed disposals' of non-distributing offshore funds when they entered the reporting-fund regime. Could they make this more complex?!