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Trust Register - where is it? (Q20 SA900 2016-17)

Practical Issues
PinkDalek
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Trust Register - where is it? (Q20 SA900 2016-17)

#44199

Postby PinkDalek » April 6th, 2017, 8:21 pm

My question is, can anyone point me to the new Trust Register and/or let me know how to access it (if relevant, the trusts concerned submit paper returns) or has it not yet been created, which is possible based on the article at the foot (albeit from December 2016)?

In more detail below.

Question 20 on the 2016-17 Trust and Estate Tax Return SA900 includes, as anticipated, mention of the new Trust Register.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... 0-2017.pdf

The wording is [their bold]:

You have a responsibility to ensure the information you have supplied on the
Trust Register is accurate and up to date to the best of your knowledge and belief.

If there have been any changes or additions to the people associated with the trust,
have you provided the updated details on the Trust Register?


These people include trustees, personal representatives, beneficiaries, members of the class of beneficiaries, settlors,
protectors, agents or any other natural person exercising effective control over the trust.


The Trust and Estate Tax Return Guide 2017 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... 0-2017.pdf includes [my bold]:

Q20 If there have been any other changes or additions to the people associated with the trust, have you provided the
updated details on the Trust Register?

You will need to update the Trust Register with details of all the trustees, ... You should ensure that the trust register is up to date and accurate at the same time as you complete the SA900


So far so good.

The Guide then states:

More information about the Trust Register, who should complete it
and how to access it, can be found at http://www.gov.uk/topic/personaltax/trusts


If you go to that page, there is nothing obvious about the Trust Register although I may have missed it.

Thus my question at the top.

If anyone is interested, I bookmarked this about 3 months ago but haven't read much else about it since:

https://ion.icaew.com/taxfaculty/b/webl ... eficiaries

It included The actual format of the register is still being debated but by June 2017 it will be in place.

I may cross-post at Legal Issues ...

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Re: Trust Register - where is it? (Q20 SA900 2006-17)

#44239

Postby PinkDalek » April 6th, 2017, 11:48 pm

Corrected link:

More information about the Trust Register, who should complete it
and how to access it, can be found at https://www.gov.uk/topic/personal-tax/trusts


Where?

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Re: Trust Register - where is it? (Q20 SA900 2016-17)

#44245

Postby felixcanis » April 7th, 2017, 6:27 am

Hi PD,

Down from that link there's a section on newsletters - Dec 16 has a bit about the register here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/hm-revenue-and-customs-trusts-and-estates-newsletters/hmrc-trusts-estates-newsletter-december-2016#trusts-register

I read on a law site somewhere(don't have a link, sorry) that HMRC will create the register with their existing data - & new trusts will need to submit their info on-line rather than using the existing form (R41?). All Trusts will have to update the data with any changes. However, like yourself I haven't found any links to the Register or how to access it on the HMRC site.

Perhaps a call to the Nottingham centre is needed.

FelixC

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Re: Trust Register - not yet live (Q20 SA900 2016-17)

#44361

Postby PinkDalek » April 7th, 2017, 1:19 pm

Hi FelixC,

Many thanks for your reply. Your helpful link includes:

The trusts register will provide a single point of access for trustees and their agents to register and update their records online, replacing the current paper 41G form and the ad hoc process for trustees to notify changes in their circumstances

The new service will provide a single online service for trusts and estates to comply with their registration obligations, will improve the processes around the administration of trusts, and allow HMRC to collect and hold adequate and up to date information in a central register.


I don't know what the Register contains in so far as we are concerned, if it exists, but I know there have been no recent changes. I therefore decided to submit the Tax Returns yesterday.

As suggested, I have now phoned Trusts and Estates (Edinburgh?) 0300 123 1072 and, having checked, the individual said it is intended to go live in June 2017. He said that trustees etc will receive a letter telling them when the Register is open for business and their obligations etc.

The SA900 and guidance was obviously prepared on the basis that the question will become valid, at some stage in the future.

PD
PS Thanks for not mentioning that I'd mixed up the dates of the tax year in the header!

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Register of Trusts

#46939

Postby PinkDalek » April 19th, 2017, 3:14 pm

I happened upon The STEP blog https://blog.step.org/2017/04/ which states the UK Trust Register will be implemented on 26 June 2017 and, in September, an online service will be introduced for users to make amendments the Register.

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Re: Trust Register - Risk of identity fraud

#59481

Postby PinkDalek » June 12th, 2017, 12:30 pm

Accountingweb draws attention to the possible risks of the new register:

HMRC trusts register could pose risk of identity theft
http://www.accountingweb.co.uk/tax/hmrc ... ead%20more

It links to this response which I've yet to read:

The Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) response to HM
Treasury’s consultation on Money Laundering Regulations
2017 (‘the consultation’)


https://ico.org.uk/media/about-the-ico/ ... 170412.pdf

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Re: Trust Register - where is it?

#64735

Postby PinkDalek » July 4th, 2017, 3:47 pm

For anyone interested in this, apparently the regulations are now in force (wef 26 June 2017) and the online register itself should be available to trustees within the next few weeks.

In more detail https://ion.icaew.com/taxfaculty/b/webl ... 8X1,7RRT,1

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Re: Trust Register - where is it? (Q20 SA900 2016-17)

#72256

Postby french17 » August 5th, 2017, 11:27 am

Well the register is available, but it is far from ready. It appears to have been released without any kind of user testing. HMRC appear to have been inspired by Snakes and Ladders (but more of the former)

You require a Gateway account. If you already have one, and login, it will tell you after a few screens that you need a new one, as a trustee.
So back to start.
Then you are faced with 3 options for different types of Gateway account (but does not mention Trustee). If you choose the wrong one, you go forward a few squares before being told you should have chosen an 'organisation'. Back to start.
Now we can start registering the trust. Up a row, and HMRC want to know about the settlor, and helpfully explain that they can be living or deceased. But they don't ask you which, or date of death, and so they demand to know their NI number (option of passport details) ,phone number and address. They do not accept Heaven as an address.
This does not send you back to start, so you have to make your own ladder, by inventing (falsifying) information that you do not have and cannot discover.
Then it is onto listing all beneficiaries... not sure how this is allowed under data protection legislation.
Then the Trust assets - values of shares when acquired by the Trust- Again this is information I simply do not have.

I've decided to bury my head in the sand...

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Re: Trust Register - where is it?

#72260

Postby PinkDalek » August 5th, 2017, 11:45 am

french17 wrote:Well the register is available, but it is far from ready. It appears to have been released without any kind of user testing. HMRC appear to have been inspired by Snakes and Ladders (but more of the former)

You require a Gateway account. If you already have one, and login, it will tell you after a few screens that you need a new one, as a trustee. ...

Then it is onto listing all beneficiaries... not sure how this is allowed under data protection legislation. ...

I've decided to bury my head in the sand...


Welcome french17.

Your experience helps to inform me why I've yet to visit the place.

As for the data protection issues, there was quite a bit on it in:

The Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) response to HM
Treasury’s consultation on Money Laundering Regulations
2017 (‘the consultation’)


https://ico.org.uk/media/about-the-ico/ ... 170412.pdf

Your post has prompted me to read it. Pages 7 and 8, in particular, appear to be of relevance.

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Re: Trust Register - where is it? (Q20 SA900 2016-17)

#72298

Postby french17 » August 5th, 2017, 1:35 pm

Thanks for the link to ICO. I read it as saying that although information about beneficiaries can be provided now, because access to the register is restricted, there is a proposal to make the register a public document, and the ICO is concerned.

Even in the restricted scenario, I am extremely nervous about providing this information. It assumes a certain trust in the competence of HMRC to run an IT system, and my experience to date suggests that this is far from the case. But I think there is a fundamental problem in providing this information about potential beneficiaries, whether minors or adults. The trust I look after is discretionary, and the class of potential beneficiaries includes individuals who have never received any benefit, and who have no knowledge of the trust. What right do I have to give out their personal data, even if I knew things like their NI or Passport numbers?

The instructions on the register are Once the individual is born and/or can be identified as an individual, they need to be added to the trust as individual beneficiaries.

I am happy to describe the class of beneficiaries as listed in the Trust Deed. Perhaps even the ones who actually receive payments as individuals (as I have to do on the annual return). But I think there is something wrong in being asked to discover and then disclose personal data about individuals who simply sit within a general class, and may or may not receive any benefit.

Just suppose some generous settlor had set up a discretionary trust for the benefit of all those residing in Middle Wallop. Would the trustee be obliged to register all their personal data?

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Re: Trust Register - where is it?

#72320

Postby PinkDalek » August 5th, 2017, 3:27 pm

french17 wrote:...

The trust I look after is discretionary, and the class of potential beneficiaries includes individuals who have never received any benefit, and who have no knowledge of the trust. What right do I have to give out their personal data, even if I knew things like their NI or Passport numbers?

The instructions on the register are Once the individual is born and/or can be identified as an individual, they need to be added to the trust as individual beneficiaries.

I am happy to describe the class of beneficiaries as listed in the Trust Deed. Perhaps even the ones who actually receive payments as individuals (as I have to do on the annual return). But I think there is something wrong in being asked to discover and then disclose personal data about individuals who simply sit within a general class, and may or may not receive any benefit.

Just suppose some generous settlor had set up a discretionary trust for the benefit of all those residing in Middle Wallop. Would the trustee be obliged to register all their personal data?


Thanks for quoting the instructions which, of course, I've yet to see.

At this stage I've only looked at the regulations themselves. This appears to be them (linked below) and as they are 120 pages long, I've only searched for the word beneficiary in the document:

The Money Laundering, Terrorist Financing and Transfer of
Funds (Information on the Payer) Regulations 2017

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017 ... 692_en.pdf

They include, starting at page 50 (my bold):

Trustee obligations
44.— ...

(5) The trustees of a relevant trust must on request provide information to any law enforcement
authority—

(a) about the beneficial owners of the trust; and
(b) about any other individual referred to as a potential beneficiary in a document from the
settlor relating to the trust such as a letter of wishes
.

(6) Information requested under paragraph (5) must be provided before the end of such
reasonable period as may be specified by the law enforcement authority.

(7) The provision of information in accordance with this regulation is not to be taken to breach
any restriction, however imposed, on the disclosure of information.


(8) Where a disclosure is made in good faith in accordance with this regulation no civil liability
arises in respect of the disclosure on the part of the trustees of a relevant trust.


Further on:

Register of beneficial ownership

45.—(1) The Commissioners must maintain a register (“the register”) of—

(a) beneficial owners of taxable relevant trusts; and
(b) potential beneficiaries (referred to in regulation 44(5)(b)) of taxable relevant trusts.


I'm most certainly not a lawyer and struggle with understanding legislation. As an example, what is the situation where an individual, potentially being a beneficiary, has been born but to qualify for a discretionary payment has to be in full time education or something like that. Does this individual have to be disclosed before that event occurs?

We need a lawyer well versed in Trust law etc or to find an explanatory leaflet or more likely a book somewhere or other. I've yet to search for such a thing.

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Re: Trust Registration Service

#148147

Postby PinkDalek » June 26th, 2018, 2:35 pm

Parky wrote: re Parky's separate thread


There doesn't appear to be great interest in this topic (I've included Parky's name above to catch his eye, although he hasn't been on this thread) but I've just read this https://ion.icaew.com/taxfaculty/b/webl ... e-year-two, which links to a pdf of a meeting held with HMRC on 23 May 2018.

It contains a number of items of interest but the one I'd mention is:

g) How should question 20 on the SA900 return be completed given the function to update the TRS is not currently available.

HMRC Response: Where trustees or agents are prevented from making changes to TRS data because the functionality is not yet available box Q20 on the SA900 return should be left blank. Customers will not be penalised for doing this.

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Re: Trust Register - where is it? (Q20 SA900 2016-17)

#148160

Postby Parky » June 26th, 2018, 4:16 pm

PinkDalek wrote:My question is, can anyone point me to the new Trust Register and/or let me know how to access it (if relevant, the trusts concerned submit paper returns) or has it not yet been created. ...



The Trust register is accessed via the Government Gateway
https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/gg/sign- ... -trust/new

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Re: Trust Register - where is it? (Q20 SA900 2016-17)

#148162

Postby PinkDalek » June 26th, 2018, 4:27 pm

Parky wrote:
PinkDalek wrote:My question is, can anyone point me to the new Trust Register and/or let me know how to access it (if relevant, the trusts concerned submit paper returns) or has it not yet been created. ...



The Trust register is accessed via the Government Gateway
https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/gg/sign- ... -trust/new


Thanks Parky but I wrote the OP on 6 April 2017, with paper Tax Returns on the way to me, and back then it didn’t exist, despite Q20 on the Returns.

At least, as per my last post on this thread, they’ve addressed the issue with updates not presently being available.

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Re: Trust Register - where is it? (Q20 SA900 2016-17)

#148174

Postby Parky » June 26th, 2018, 5:32 pm

PinkDalek wrote:Thanks Parky but I wrote the OP on 6 April 2017, with paper Tax Returns on the way to me, and back then it didn’t exist, despite Q20 on the Returns.

At least, as per my last post on this thread, they’ve addressed the issue with updates not presently being available.



Thanks PD - I think I missed the point of your latest post. That's useful information for me, as I need to update the register for my Trust.

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Re: Trust Register - (Q20 SA900 2018-19)

#216844

Postby PinkDalek » April 23rd, 2019, 3:46 pm

Parky wrote:
PinkDalek wrote:Thanks Parky but I wrote the OP on 6 April 2017, with paper Tax Returns on the way to me, and back then it didn’t exist, despite Q20 on the Returns.

At least, as per my last post on this thread, they’ve addressed the issue with updates not presently being available.



Thanks PD - I think I missed the point of your latest post. That's useful information for me, as I need to update the register for my Trust.


How did it go (back in June 2018)?

I'm updating this thread as Q20 on the Trust and Estate Tax Return 2019 SA 900 https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... _2019_.pdf seems to repeat what was there last year and includes:

Q20 You have a responsibility to ensure the information you have supplied on the Trust Register is accurate and up to date to the best of your knowledge and belief.

Tick this box if there have been any changes or additions to the people associated with the trust, and you’ve provided the updated details on the Trust Register or you’ve confirmed on the Trust Register that there have been no changes to the trust.


I was again unable to find the Trust Register online where one is supposed to confirm on the Trust Register that there have been no changes to the trust.

If anyone finds it in the future kindly respond on this thread.

What I have found is Guidance HMRC Trusts and Estates Newsletter: December 2018, being the latest Newsletter available,
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... on-service which includes (my bold):

2.1 Updating TRS

HMRC is implementing TRS in a number of phases. Currently, it is not possible for lead trustees and their agents to update their registered information or to declare that there have not been any changes. We have apologised in previous newsletters for the delay in providing this functionality.

The project to allow trustees and agents to update their details online is now underway. Following user feedback, we are switching to a new system (a ‘micro service’) which will be more intuitive, easier to navigate and have several advantages over the current ‘iForm’ service. We intend to roll out the new service at the start of the summer of 2019 and functionality will be expanded gradually in a series of deployments, which will include the ability to update details.

In the meantime, if you need to inform HMRC that the lead trustee or trust correspondence address has changed then write to us at:

Trusts
HM Revenue and Customs
BX9 1EL


There is a specific question, question number 20 on the SA900 trust tax return asking if the TRS has been updated. For now, submit completed SA900 forms without answering Question 20 and leave the tick box blank. You will not be penalised for not answering Question 20. Our apologies for any confusion this may cause.

I made the mistake of ticking Box 20.1 on submitting the hard copy Tax Return (forgetting what I'd written here previously) and reading only the last part that there have been no changes to the trust! My apologies to HMRC for any confusion this may cause. I've paid the Trust's Income Tax liability of £1.80 nine months early to assist with funding the series of deployments.

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Re: Trust Register - (Q20 SA900 2018-19)

#216860

Postby Parky » April 23rd, 2019, 4:37 pm

PinkDalek wrote:
Parky wrote:
PinkDalek wrote:
How did it go (back in June 2018)?



I made the mistake of ticking Box 20.1 on submitting the hard copy Tax Return (forgetting what I'd written here previously) and reading only the last part that there have been no changes to the trust! My apologies to HMRC for any confusion this may cause. I've paid the Trust's Income Tax liability of £1.80 nine months early to assist with funding the series of deployments.



I tried a couple of times to update the Trust Register, then gave up. No repercussions so far.

It's heartening to know that I am not the only one to make mistakes on my (paper) SA 900. I sent mine to the wrong HMRC address, BH9 1EL, instead of the Nottingham address, as reported on another thread, but have been assured that it will be forwarded to the right place. Let's hope so.

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Re: Trust Register - (Q20 SA900 2018-19)

#216882

Postby PinkDalek » April 23rd, 2019, 6:13 pm

Parky wrote:I tried a couple of times to update the Trust Register, then gave up. No repercussions so far.


If that's for a change in lead trustee or correspondence address, they say you should write to them at:

Trusts
HM Revenue and Customs
BX9 1EL

For other changes, it does look like you may have to wait for the ‘micro service’.

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Re: Trust Register - where is it? (Q20 SA900 2016-17)

#216899

Postby johnhemming » April 23rd, 2019, 8:46 pm

HMRC are working on an API for Trusts and Estates to do this.

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Re: Trust Register (Q20 SA900 2018-19)

#216903

Postby PinkDalek » April 23rd, 2019, 9:24 pm

johnhemming wrote:HMRC are working on an API for Trusts and Estates to do this.


I'm unsure what you are adding nor to whom you are replying but API being an Application Programming Interface (for those, such as me, who may not be computer techies)?

Aka a ‘micro service’ as per viewtopic.php?p=216844#p216844 but, in the meantime, the advice is not to bother ticking Box 20.1 on the Trust and Estate Tax Return, for the third tax year in a row.


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