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Provident Financial debt has become interesting

Gilts, bonds, and interest-bearing shares
murraypaul
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Re: Provident Financial debt has become interesting

#415681

Postby murraypaul » May 27th, 2021, 10:32 pm

Also slightly naughty(?) that the explanatory statement lists the directors as having no material interest in the scheme despite one of them having over a million pounds worth of shares. The equivalent Amigo disclosure did list shareholdings.

hiriskpaul
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Re: Provident Financial debt has become interesting

#432966

Postby hiriskpaul » August 6th, 2021, 5:05 pm

HC sanctions scheme of arrangement, full judgement: https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2021/2217.html

Quite likely it was going to happen, but still reassuring it did.

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Re: Provident Financial debt has become interesting

#441223

Postby hiriskpaul » September 10th, 2021, 11:47 am

The 6%s are maturing on the 27th of this month, so what to do with the money? The 5.125% 23s are available for around par value, so not particularly exciting, but not unreasonable for a 2 year bond at present. Apart from CCD the company is performing well and I think the main uncertainty is with the runoff of CCD. The cost of that should now be capped, but there must still be some risk that the FCA will not allow the group to escape all the misselling claims.

Not for me, but the ords might be an interesting punt. CCD should be gone soon and the expensive debt matures in June 23, so they should be able to refinance much more cheaply or even self-finance through another loan from Vanquis. In 2 years the group should be hugely profitable, provided we don't see any more unpleasant surprises.

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Re: Provident Financial debt has become interesting

#442546

Postby hiriskpaul » September 15th, 2021, 4:36 pm

An alternative option for reinvestment, in the same type of business, is International Personal Finance 7.75% 2023 (IPF2). I already have a position, purchased at launch and the half-year Report (30 June 2021), looked very good. There seems to be plenty of liquidity, I received online quotes today to buy 10k nominal for 102.74 (ytm 6.4%), to sell 10k nominal 101.745 (ytm 6.9%).

This bond was previously discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=52&t=17612

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Re: Provident Financial debt has become interesting

#444054

Postby 88V8 » September 21st, 2021, 10:08 am

hiriskpaul wrote:International Personal Finance 7.75% 2023 (IPF2). I already have a position...

I too have a position purchased before ii decided that this and various other instruments would no longer be traded online.
They will trade them over the phone, and I don't really want to open another broker account for what is in reality a minority portion of my portfolio, but it is rather irritating.

I sent them a PM last week griping about this and they replied that they would 'refer it to the department concerned'.
Perhaps if a few more people griped they might do something.

V8

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Re: Provident Financial debt has become interesting

#444135

Postby Wozzitworthit » September 21st, 2021, 1:14 pm

Yes - please can those that have an issue with ii over this please gripe !

We were transferred from EQi and there are a lot of accrued interest investments (PIBs,PSBs, Retail Bonds etc) that we can no longer trade without going via a dealer (which so far we have tried to avoid as the charges are exhorbitant)

We wrote to them about 5 weeks ago - and asked them to look into this as we were able to trade all of these on line with EQi - and we told them as much

They came back a couple of times with good reasons as to why they have stopped enabling on line trades (they do admit that there are still a few that haven't yet been blocked) - but their reasons , as far as we are concerned, all fall into "the cat ate my homework" category

They did say that the matter has been referred to the appropriate department, and initially gave weekly updates (basically saying no news yet)

We will chivvy them up this week, but the more people that moan then maybe better chance we have of something being done

If EQi , Hargeaves Lansdown etc can do it , then so should ii

If they cannot solve this soon then we are very seriously considering moving everything to another broker before our six months free transfer offer expires

Woz

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Re: Provident Financial debt has become interesting

#444639

Postby carnie » September 23rd, 2021, 9:39 am

I've also raised a complaint with ii over this issue of retail bonds not being able to trade online.

I've built up a reasonable holding in the ORB bonds over the last 5 years but now with yields being so low having to pay the telephone charge as opposed to using the "free" online trading credit each month makes it pointless to add anymore at the sizes I tend to buy at.

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Re: Provident Financial debt has become interesting

#444686

Postby Wozzitworthit » September 23rd, 2021, 12:28 pm

Thanks carnie ..

We have just had a reply from our chaser message we sent yesterday

They state that at present their current policy remains but we will be advised if this changes in future

We raised the issue on 27th August, so tomorrow marks 4 weeks since we first wrote

We replied saying that we cannot understand why EQi could handle these types of investments and ii can't

We also said that we would now start looking for other brokers in order that we can use the free transfer out service that was offered to ex EQi customers, before the time limit on that expires

We would appreciate hearing from anyone who can suggest a broker that can enable us to trade these online - obviously we'll do our own research but suggestions (and comments) woiuld be very much welcomed

We were with Hargeaves Lansdown a few years ago , so they will be our first port of call as they seem to be able to offer what we require

The Wozzes

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Re: Provident Financial debt has become interesting

#444757

Postby 88V8 » September 23rd, 2021, 3:32 pm

Wozzitworthit wrote:We would appreciate hearing from anyone who can suggest a broker that can enable us to trade these online - obviously we'll do our own research but suggestions (and comments) would be very much welcomed

I've just asked Cannacord to confirm that they can trade all the usual suspects online... although they have a minimum £400 fee.
I do have to wonder though, with inflation getting up steam, and yields having gone nowhere, whether this is the right time to be adding more FI. I ask myself whether I'm peeved that I can't rather than actually wanting to :)

V8

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Re: Provident Financial debt has become interesting

#444923

Postby formoverfunction » September 24th, 2021, 8:41 am

I've also asked the same question and lead time for transfer, my under understanding is leaving them is free, so no transfer out cost for a normal trading account.

I've been in the business of moving more to ii by re-investing income with them, so I now have stranded top-ups, small values, trades stuck with them where it's not effective to spend £49 to sell out.

Gone is the possibility of moving my main portfolio over.

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Re: Provident Financial debt has become interesting

#445899

Postby formoverfunction » September 28th, 2021, 12:49 pm

I've had a response from ii, they've made the change because investors have been complaining and there's been settlement issues. And an issue with indexation?
I asked about honoring the flat charge for dealing cost, NO GO they want to charge a telephone rate but don't appear to be willing to say what that is, I couldn't find it the charge card for the service I signed up for, but you can use trade credit towards offsetting the cost.
I've reminded them these are Retail Bonds, designed for retail investors, listed on the LSE etc.
I've decided to start the formal process of complaining. In truth I have a very small amount of these and usually called the service desk before hand as I wasn't always sure they expressed lot sizes correctly. It's much better with Hargreaves and other's I've found.
Overall, for me it's the principal. On the face of it looks like dealing costs for these have gone up 500%. If that's because others have complained, and made an error, then it doesn't sound fair treatment for the rest of us.
Very happy to hear they looked into it and don't find in my favour, they most likely will say that, so I can move it on up after 6 weeks.

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Re: Provident Financial debt has become interesting

#445906

Postby Alaric » September 28th, 2021, 1:00 pm

formoverfunction wrote:On the face of it looks like dealing costs for these have gone up 500%. If that's because others have complained, and made an error, then it doesn't sound fair treatment for the rest of us.
Very happy to hear they looked into it and don't find in my favour, they most likely will say that, so I can move it on up after 6 weeks.


As a long standing ii customer, from back in the days when it was TD, I don't believe they have ever offered online trading for Retail Bonds.

Gilts, Bond ETFs and OEICs seemingly were about their limit. If the yields on Retail Bonds were more attractive, I might consider opening another account just for this purpose. Hargreaves may be an option, but where else?

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Re: Provident Financial debt has become interesting

#445922

Postby Wozzitworthit » September 28th, 2021, 1:25 pm

The replies I got from ii 3 or 4 weeks ago were along the same lines as yours, i.e errors on calculation of accrued interest, problems with index linkers etc etc, and that they are gradually making these unavailable , but that there were a few that were still dealable on line

We replied, basically saying, OK fine, we understand, but how is it that EQI could do this and we never had any issues over the years we were with them (and Selftrade before).

They never made any comment on this and ended up saying that their policy wouldn't change. When we said we will look into moving they came back with "sorry to see you go" !!

I know of others who have complained very recently, and oddly today ii seem to have more retail bonds available for on line dealing than there were

I suspect though that this is just due to the fact that these are just going through a temporary phase of being more liquid rather than any positive change in ii policy

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Re: Provident Financial debt has become interesting

#446054

Postby 88V8 » September 28th, 2021, 6:24 pm

They used to deal more widely online but with the caveat that 'the price cannot be confirmed until the trade is made' or something to that effect.
I used to push the button, and I cannot recall being unhappy with the outcomes.

Telephone trading is so ponderous.... I went to buy IPF2 yesterday and it's phone only so I didn't. But do I really really want more FI with inflation looming.....

V8

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Re: Provident Financial debt has become interesting

#446061

Postby Wozzitworthit » September 28th, 2021, 6:37 pm

I tried today for IPF2 but same result as you

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Re: Provident Financial debt has become interesting

#446123

Postby Wozzitworthit » September 28th, 2021, 10:24 pm

Just realised this thread has been drifting off topic recently , a lot of it my fault - apologies.

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Re: Provident Financial debt has become interesting

#446178

Postby formoverfunction » September 29th, 2021, 8:56 am

"As a long standing ii customer, from back in the days when it was TD, I don't believe they have ever offered online trading for Retail Bonds."

I go back before that, I've been a client 20+ years, and I most certainly have ORB listed bonds in my portfolio with them. Those I bought "online". I've never used telephone execution with them in the last 10 years.

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Re: Provident Financial debt has become interesting

#446238

Postby hiriskpaul » September 29th, 2021, 11:32 am

PF21 capital and interest was available first thing this morning in my HL account. So what now? The remaining Provident retail bond 66WS, has moved up in price since I last checked, todays quote was 101.74, for a ytm of only 4.2%. IPF2 has also moved up to 103.5, ytm 6.0%.

Not many other interesting picks around. There is Enquest ENQ1, quoted today at 98 this morning, for a YTM of 8.1%, but they are complicated, far more risky and I already have a big position after buying in from the proceeds of Premier Oil bonds.

Struggling for alternatives, anyone have any interesting short dated FI suggestions?

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Re: Provident Financial debt has become interesting

#446267

Postby Wozzitworthit » September 29th, 2021, 1:19 pm

In the absence of anything else I could find, I bought a few more 66WS yesterday at 100p - todays tender offer for 43ZF from Provident seems to have pushed the price up this morning


I also bought even more 1SBB it will almost certainly be called in August 2024 and the YTM is a smidgen over 5%. If they aren't, then the interest then changes to 5 year gilt plus 4%, so a bit of protection there if rates do rise.

I just wanted something to park cash in for a couple or three years, not exciting returns but couldn't spot much else

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Re: Provident Financial debt has become interesting

#446289

Postby Gan020 » September 29th, 2021, 2:16 pm

I can see as PF21 has been redeemed, various bonds and prefs have some buying interest.

Honestly, what are we to do? We are all swimming in the same pond and nothing looks that attractive to me apart from a couple I already own which I can't possibly buy any more of as I need to manage my risk exposure to individual companies.

I think PF21 is the last redemption until PAG2 in Jan 22. Since the YTM on that one is around 0.75% I doubt many of us are holding that one. Mine certainly went a long time ago.

£852m printed at end of August. £895m target by end of the year. The sooner it ends the better but at least there is an end in sight.


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