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Nothing is forever

Gilts, bonds, and interest-bearing shares
GoSeigen
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Nothing is forever

#124694

Postby GoSeigen » March 14th, 2018, 8:25 am

Sorry, I am back already, prompted by my astonishment at the almost catatonic levels of denial I am witnessing from some parts, notably our "professional" bretheren in the investment community, and a very well-intentioned but, I believe, specious summary of points about the Aviva case that I read last night.


So, first off:

Since the Aviva announcement, has any preference share investor bothered to Google "Can a contract be forever"? I hadn't until this morning, but I present without any further commentary just the the three extracts shown in the search results: there was no need to click on any link.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=can+a ... be+forever

"Perhaps you think that the lack of a termination date in a contract would surely send the message that the relationship should last forever. No, not so. ... Be very cautious of perpetual contracts (or purported perpetual contracts)."


"No company (or person, for that matter) in their right mind would ever agree to a contract that has an indefinite or infinite term. That's just patently ridiculous."


"'Perpetual' software licence doesn't last forever, rules court"



Not the Moral: Companies have the right to end a contract whenever they wish.

This is about investors.

GS

swill453
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Re: Nothing is forever

#124697

Postby swill453 » March 14th, 2018, 8:40 am

Stating the obvious I think. But it's not "Can a contract be ended?". It's "How can a contract be ended?".

Scott.

GoSeigen
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Re: Nothing is forever

#124719

Postby GoSeigen » March 14th, 2018, 9:33 am

swill453 wrote:Stating the obvious I think. But it's not "Can a contract be ended?". It's "How can a contract be ended?".

Scott.



Exactly. Thanks for your support.


Others are unconvinced of the obvious:

Exhibit 1: "it’s a simple matter of honouring the market’s clear understanding of Irredeemable."
Exhibit 2: "Aviva’s public website stated that the preference shares are permanent"


How coherent does this look when put to professional bodies like regulators?

GS

88V8
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Re: Nothing is forever

#124746

Postby 88V8 » March 14th, 2018, 10:34 am

GoSeigen wrote: "it’s a simple matter of honouring the market’s clear understanding of Irredeemable."


Thankyou for quoting my observation, which I think succinctly sums up the situation :}
although I appreciate you might describe it as a misunderstanding...........

V8

GoSeigen
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Re: Nothing is forever

#124807

Postby GoSeigen » March 14th, 2018, 1:12 pm

In viewtopic.php?p=124785#p124785

johnhemming wrote:There is an important issue, however, in that the shares are described as irredeemable. I accept that there is a definition of "redeemable shares". I accept also the historic practice of the UK House of Lords Judicial Committee in accepting that a return of capital is not inherently outwith the contract created by the shares. However, "irredeemable" means to me that they cannot do this (without the permission of the class). They can obviously buy shares in the market and offer to buy by tender. If they went bust then that is life and the preference share contract comes to the fore.



John, I'm sure I don't need to spell out the logic why, but if you interpret the law as you have above, specifically the section in bold, the inevitable conclusion is that any company and all companies whose shareholders choose to issue preference shares will lose its right and that of the ordinary shareholders to return any capital at all without the agreement of the preference shareholders (with a 75% majority). Let me rephrase that: a 25% minority of preference shareholders, no matter how small the class would have a blocking veto on any capital reduction whatsoever (or voluntary winding up for that matter).

That absolutely cannot be the intention of company law.

As the law is written, if the preference shares are non-equity (and I have stressed this over and over) then the rights of the holders in a capital reduction are known a priori and the courts have always ruled that a capital reduction does not affect their enjoyment of their rights because capital reduction was always part of the bargain. In the case of equity preference shares (or indeed if some relevant right has been added after their issue affording them a share of profits for example) then courts have ruled that there does have to be a class vote.

Note that the law does not forbid the shareholders from binding themselves in the way you suggest above by writing additional restrictions (over and above those in the CA2006) into the Articles. It just not impose this restriction on all companies automatically. I have stressed this multiple times. However, such restrictions were not introduced in the specific case of Aviva for at least some of their subsidiary prefs.


Please carefully study the above distinction between equity and non-equity shares. They are defined in CA2006. This is all explained very clearly in the web page you linked to earlier, with numerous case examples.


GS

johnhemming
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Re: Nothing is forever

#124812

Postby johnhemming » March 14th, 2018, 1:18 pm

GoSeigen wrote:Note that the law does not forbid the shareholders from binding themselves in the way you suggest above by writing additional restrictions (over and above those in the CA2006) into the Articles. It just not impose this restriction on all companies automatically.

In the Prospectus (GA) it says that the shares are irredeemable. That does not have to be said in the prospectus.

It does not say "These are not redeemable shares"

In some of the Aviva prospectuses it says the shares cannot be redeemed without a class vote. However, Aviva appear to be believe that this statement means nothing.

GoSeigen
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Re: Nothing is forever

#124820

Postby GoSeigen » March 14th, 2018, 1:33 pm

johnhemming wrote:
GoSeigen wrote:Note that the law does not forbid the shareholders from binding themselves in the way you suggest above by writing additional restrictions (over and above those in the CA2006) into the Articles. It just not impose this restriction on all companies automatically.

In the Prospectus (GA) it says that the shares are irredeemable. That does not have to be said in the prospectus.

It does not say "These are not redeemable shares"

In some of the Aviva prospectuses it says the shares cannot be redeemed without a class vote. However, Aviva appear to be believe that this statement means nothing.


This is deflection. My post had nothing to do with redeeming. I'm not going to argue in circles.

GS

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Re: Nothing is forever

#124826

Postby Alaric » March 14th, 2018, 1:48 pm

GoSeigen wrote: My post had nothing to do with redeeming. I'm not going to argue in circles.


To those of us who aren't lawyers, paying back a share at par is redeeming it and statements in a prospectus that a share class was irredeemable would be understood to mean that it wouldn't happen, or at least not without the consent of those whose asset was being paid off.

Perhaps the experts in denying claims coverage at Aviva are now in positions of senior decision making.

PeterGray
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Re: Nothing is forever

#124849

Postby PeterGray » March 14th, 2018, 3:12 pm

To those of us who aren't lawyers

That surely is the key? It's lawyers who get to make the ultimate decisions on what the words mean and if the company can follow a particular course of action. So ultimately what the lawyers think is what matters.

Peter

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Re: Nothing is forever

#124976

Postby bruncher » March 14th, 2018, 11:13 pm

It's lawyers who get to make the ultimate decisions on what the words mean


No, they get to write and interpret contracts.

There would be no market if no-one could rely on commonly held understandings of what things mean. If irredeemable means redeemable, then normal trade is impossible.


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