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Bond prices falling

Gilts, bonds, and interest-bearing shares
Alaric
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Re: Bond prices falling

#130955

Postby Alaric » April 9th, 2018, 4:56 pm

Melanie wrote:Yes, that's exactly what we are aiming to do. The last thing we want to do consume any earnings on excessive trading - we don't quite have that much to burn!


If you don't actually need the bond interest and would reinvest it when it becomes available and you are looking for fixed return investment even if it isn't free of risk, then zero dividend preference shares might be of interest. If not in a tax shelter, they are subject to the CGT area of taxation rather than dividends or interest income. Looking through a list of IPOs shows a new issue with a return equivalent to 5% a year over 8 years. The risk is that the Company raising money in this way won't be able to pay it back when the time comes or will collapse into liquidation before that.

https://www.sharesmagazine.co.uk/articl ... nce-shares

How it went wrong in the early 2000s
http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/p ... -annex.pdf

TheMotorcycleBoy
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Re: Bond prices falling

#131047

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » April 10th, 2018, 7:41 am

colin wrote:Out of interest (er forgive the pun)

:lol:

colin wrote:the bonds you are thinking of buying how many years to maturity and what level of yield to maturity would you be looking for, and are you intending to create a continuous running bond ladder or just buy a few individual bonds maturing around the same date?


Hi Colin,

(We've not researched strategies as yet...but the bond ladder sounds like a tempting plan, from the little I do know.)

Our whole investment idea, is really just to gradually move savings from the bank account into slightly more rewarding (and interesting areas). We don't mind actively managing it, but we want to minimise trades, and there's no definite goal for the money, other than for retirement or helping our children out when they need it in decades to come. So far we've just spent 7k in 7 different UK individual stocks (from mid march). As you know the equities market is fairly unpredictable right now. A couple have risen already, and one is about to actually pay us a dividend.

re. bonds - we just want to diversify a bit and of course a fixed income stream over time that hopefully beats inflation sounds like a nice idea to us. We've have so far just short-listed a "not investment grade/but not junk" bond which matures in just over 2 years and has about 2 years duration, and hopefully the YTM we will see will be 5.0-5.5%. I think we'll just buy a 1k in that, just to get our toes wet, and see what happens over the next few months, i.e. regarding future bond/gilt scenarios. I think we are definitely in a "buy-and-hold" mindset, and don't want excessive trade fees spoiling the fun.

re. other ventures. I'd like to look at funds in order to get some investments in Asian markets, speculating that China is on it's way past the US in the next decade, and we are also thinking of some "commodities" too.

On a more boring front, we've already bought some (3k) NS&I "bonds". I think they are 2 or 3 year ones at 2.2%

Matt

colin
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Re: Bond prices falling

#131165

Postby colin » April 10th, 2018, 12:27 pm

We've have so far just short-listed a "not investment grade/but not junk" bond which matures in just over 2 years and has about 2 years duration, and hopefully the YTM we will see will be 5.0-5.5%. I think we'll just buy a 1k in that, just to get our toes wet, and see what happens


You need some idea of how the wider market is pricing bonds in order to evaluate the level of risk you might be taking on, to that end making a careful study of the figures published by ishares for their various bond ETFs should be instructive to you,
Take a look at this one to begin with
https://www.ishares.com/uk/individual/en/products/251839/ishares-corporate-bond-ucits-etf SLXX.
This ETF is a portfolio of the current most widely traded investment grade bonds on the market at the present time, that is the bonds within are the most liquid so as bonds are bought and sold within the fund the minimum transaction costs will apply. As the bonds within are all investment grade it is considered highly unlikely by the market that any of them will default in the near foreseeable future But note the figure for weighted average maturity is 13.5 years which is certainly beyond anyone's foreseeable future, for this inherent uncertainty one would expect a higher yield to compensate for the risk that some of the companies might suffer changes to their credit ratings and also that inflation may turn out to be more than the market has priced in, compare the yield available on this ETF to one with an average age to maturity of less than 3 years such ashttps://www.ishares.com/uk/individual/en/products/251840/ishares-corporate-bond-15yr-ucits-etf IS15 which holds bonds of a similar credit rating the average yield to maturity is 1.94% as opposed to 2.71%.
Both ETFs have a charge of .2%, when that is added to the expected total return we are still no where near the yield to maturity of 5%+ that you are considering, unfortunately ishares do not state the average credit ratings of their funds but you could work it out from the graphs, at a glance it would seem to be about S+P A grade so any bond offering 5% or more over 2 years should be well below investment grade.
So lets look at a fund of 'Junk Bonds' https://www.ishares.com/uk/individual/en/products/295888/ishares-high-yield-corp-bond-ucits-etf-gbp-hedged-(dist)-fund IHHG which represents the dollar denominated high yield market currency hedged to sterling, weighted average maturity is 4.5 years, average yield to maturity is 5.8% and whatever the average credit quality might be precisely it is clearly bellow S+P BB grade, note that the US is currently at a more advanced state in the credit cycle than we are so one would expect all corporate bonds to be priced for a higher yield because their government bonds are priced for a higher yield.
What all this should tell you is that your 5%+ 2 year bond is pricing in a relatively high level of risk compared to the wider market WHAT IS THIS RISK ? perhaps it's something innocuous such as liquidity risk which for two years is not a big deal or maybe it's something more sinister.

Regarding duration, the important figures for retail investors are effective duration and modified duration which tell you how much the market value of the bonds will change when interest rates change by 1 %, I do not buy retail bonds so i just look at the figures stated for funds, effective duration is supposed to take into account the possibility that some companies will be able to call their bonds and re finance at lower rates should interest rates fall .

When retail bonds were first listed on the stock exchange I heard a bond fund manager saying on the radio that he could buy the same bonds marketed to retail investors for lower prices and higher yields, whether the lower price fully compensated for his management charge was not revealed but its another thing to consider.

Alaric
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Re: Bond prices falling

#131188

Postby Alaric » April 10th, 2018, 1:51 pm

colin wrote:When retail bonds were first listed on the stock exchange I heard a bond fund manager saying on the radio that he could buy the same bonds marketed to retail investors for lower prices and higher yields, whether the lower price fully compensated for his management charge was not revealed but its another thing to consider.


An advantage of buying an individual bond or series of individual bonds as opposed to a fund is that you can tailor the maturity date to when you want the money back. Unless you get stung for high rates of commission, charges are likely lower as well. The disadvantage is that you exposed to the risk of problems arising with the Company issuing the bond. That's not a risk so different from holding shares in that Company, but with shares at least you have the potential reward of the share price rocketing instead of just getting 10% in two years.

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Re: Bond prices falling

#131198

Postby colin » April 10th, 2018, 2:19 pm

The point you were mean't to take from my post Alaric is that any bond with a GRY of 5% in today's market is priced as junk bond.


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